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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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 Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 6:54 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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Can anyone on the forum tell me what main wing and tailplane profiles are used on the Europa? Thanks in advance...
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 11:25 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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That info is in the excellent booklet(s) by Don Dykin, which I could possibly be persuaded to send you a copy of. Where are you? David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-05-31 03:54, Area-51 wrote:
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Thanks David, searched for Dykin and found some info on the club’s website; will have a read and see if it provides the information I’m after!
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Both of the Dykins booklets are on the website. They are an interesting read.
Jim Butcher
Do Not Archive
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Read both of the Dykin writings. They are very informative, however neither provide the information being sought... Specifically searching for actual airfoil profiles employed on the Europa; profile plotting data in excel spread sheet, CSV coordinates, or title tag of airfoil.
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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No doubt you've read the PilotFriend flight test report http://www.pilotfriend.com/flight_reports/reports/18e.htm and other similar articles. At the end under Europa History is stated " Don Dykins designed the Europa’s wing. Don, as former chief aerodynamicist at British Aerospace, had directed the development of the advanced technology wing of the Airbus."
While building my Europa Classic between 1994 and 1997, I recall seeing it written somewhere that the Don Dykins wing profile became known simply as the "Europa profile" or the "Dykins profile" and I'll try rummaging through my large pile of Europa info to see if I can find the reference you seek.
I'm fairly confident that it was never accorded a formal unique reference listing in any airfoil database.
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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 8:11 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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I believe that the stall warner mod has a profile of the forward most 6” of the wing profile…Fred
| Quote: | On May 31, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Read both of the Dykin writings. They are very informative, however neither provide the information being sought... Specifically searching for actual airfoil profiles employed on the Europa; profile plotting data in excel spread sheet, CSV coordinates, or title tag of airfoil.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502162#502162
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Decided to just go Old School on this one and plot it all out from actuals... Task done :)
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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The aerofoils are hybrid, derived from first principles and hence unique. If you wish to do your own analysis I suggest you ask Europa Aircraft for the external profile - David Stanbridge recently made an offer to share their 3D scanned data of the Europa OML.
Please bear in mind that the section changes root to tip, hence intermediate wing rib coordinate stations are needed to correctly simulate the wing.
Some online CAD models of the Europa exists, however, I would be cautious of using them as their accuracy is quite poor.
FYI
I was fortunate to work at BAe Hatfield under Don Dykins for a short time during my apprenticeship (moving on to the stress office as a career). The only other claim I have to have known him personally was that he had the same preference for cars as myself - he brought a Ford Capri 2.8i I had owned.
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Thanks for the insight there John! Have got today’s results into CAD already. You’re right on the hybrid stance; looks a little like an Eppler or Boeing profile (stable up to 400kt cruise)... which doesn’t surprise me given the performance envelope... Will see if the factory are willing to supply any data. My experience on this level of study generally ends up with reverse engineering with laser scanning due to highly guarded secret squirrel bunker information that can be measured off any particular given factory part purchased... will just have to use the sunlight to tell me where those stations are and plot out the whole wing accordingly...
The only Capri worth owning is a clean chromoly caged 351 Windsor Hilborn powered widow maker with Toploader and full floating 9” rear axle :)
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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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On 2021-06-01, at 15:33, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | My experience on this level of study generally ends up with reverse engineering with laser scanning due to highly guarded secret squirrel bunker information that can be measured off any particular given factory part purchased... will just have to use the sunlight to tell me where those stations are and plot out the whole wing accordingly...
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Area-51 - not sure if I missed something earlier in this thread, but just out of idle curiosity, what is your intended use of the data once captured?
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:12 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like! 
PeteZ
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>
Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502194#502194
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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Pete…below are my best efforts in that regard…I too am very curious as to what a rigorous analysis will show...Fred | Quote: | On Jun 1, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like!
PeteZ
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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[img]cid:FFEDD320-4A38-49CB-96AD-F1CA4C55A33E[/img][img]cid:BE66E100-4714-44EE-A00D-A3A542B6B428[/img]
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[img]cid:DBD5B687-E27D-453E-90B7-E0C7634BD412[/img]
[img]cid:B7D8EF46-180E-4679-9F7B-BFD357F76557[/img]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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Indeed Fred, yours looks “spitfire perfect”. Gorgeous!
-PeteZ
| Quote: | On Jun 1, 2021, at 10:31 PM, Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Pete…below are my best efforts in that regard…I too am very curious as to what a rigorous analysis will show...Fred | Quote: | On Jun 1, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like!
PeteZ
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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<DSCN0009.jpeg>
<DSCN0008.jpeg>
<DSCN0913.jpeg>
<DSCN0914.jpeg>
<DSCN6945.jpeg>
<DSCN6947.jpeg>
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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It will indeed be interesting to see what the CFD results reveal... after years of playing with this stuff its always surprising in some way; the brain thinks the air will flow a particular way and it often does something different!
Today involved a more thorough study and data capture session after the mention of alternate stations along the wing; and indeed they were there when searched for! Will be interesting to watch the stall response... the wing root has a slightly alternate upper chord profile; the lower chord profile on this particular aircraft is uniform across it’s span, and no washout.
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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When we scanned the Europa we used paint that was washed off afterwards. It is commonly used by street artists. An initial attempt without paint led to big gaps in the cloud data.
I like the root fairings, they look a bit like Frans Veldman’s who was highly active in Europa modifications. Whatever happened to Frans?
The tape is probably a better idea, as it limits the data - although there are some coordinates for the sections along the wing - we used them years ago in xfoil.
John W
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD |
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Interested to know what polar results Xfoil popped out there John! Would still want to cross reference results to those of Ansys Fluent though.
On 3d scanning; shiny surfaces are the devil... dead flat non-reflective surface is going to save a lot of mumbling...water soluble hair spray and talcum powder dust is a magic formula! Plenty of reference dots are required too... washoff flat spray paint costs a bit more :)
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Airfoil Profiles |
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Frans bought a yacht and is sailing around the world last I heard. We haven't talked since we collaborated on our cooling drag reduction project years ago.. You can catch him on Twitter from time to time. I believe that his fairings were provided by Fred if I'm not mistaken. - Paul
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 2:20 AM John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>
When we scanned the Europa we used paint that was washed off afterwards. It is commonly used by street artists. An initial attempt without paint led to big gaps in the cloud data.
I like the root fairings, they look a bit like Frans Veldman’s who was highly active in Europa modifications. Whatever happened to Frans?
The tape is probably a better idea, as it limits the data - although there are some coordinates for the sections along the wing - we used them years ago in xfoil.
John W
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502215#502215
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pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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b Site -
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Airfoil Profiles |
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Thanks Paul, l am not so surprised about the sailing adventure. Frans was very foreword thinking, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he had a stash of Bitcoin from Day 1.
We met as he was based near Hoogeveen, l was acting as a delegated signatory for Fokker’s A380 wing assemblies at the time.
His Europa was highly modified, something that surprised me as the Dutch NVAV and authority ILT seemed pretty hot on the need to grant approvals per Mod.
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John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD |
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