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rap(at)isp.com
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 Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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Stupid question were in the cooling system do you take the temp. reading for a EIS probe? After the radiator or before? I also saw that some company was selling premade temp sensor couplings in a past issue of Sport Pilot mag. I have not been able to find the add again. Any one know what issue had the add?
Rick Pearce MK3 amphib
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dhkey(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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The 912 has two nipples to attach the sensors to. If you got the same EIS as
I do then you'll notice they are much to big to fit on the nipples and have
the wrong type of attachment. No problem just unscrew the silver nut that
holds the nipples onto the engine and put them under there. And screw them
back on. If you need a photo let me know.
| Quote: | From: "Rick Pearce" <rap(at)isp.com>
Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:14:43 -0500
Stupid question were in the cooling system do you take the temp.
reading for a EIS probe? After the radiator or before? I also saw that
some company was selling premade temp sensor couplings in a past issue of
Sport Pilot mag. I have not been able to find the add again. Any one know
what issue had the add?
Rick Pearce MK3 amphib
Do not archive
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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David,
The 912 sensors you refer to are cylinder head temperature
sensors/thermocouples, not water temperature. The water/coolant of
course runs thru the heads and cools them, but the temp sensor is not
measuring the water temp.
Not sure what engine Rick is running but if he wants water temperature,
it should be taken at it hottest point which is upon leaving the head,
before it gets to the radiator. If money and gauge space were no
barrier, it would be nice to know the temp leaving the radiator too,
but if only one is used, it should be the hot one.
Thom in Buffalo
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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| Quote: | From: "Rick Pearce" <rap(at)isp.com>
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:14:43 -0500
Stupid question were in the cooling system do you take the temp.
reading for a EIS probe? After the radiator or before? I also saw that
some company was selling premade temp sensor couplings in a past issue of
Sport Pilot mag. I have not been able to find the add again. Any one know
what issue had the add?
Rick Pearce MK3 amphib
Do not archive
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I will speak for the 912 as that is the only engine I have experience
with.... the 912 installation manual does not suggest that the water temps
be monitored. If you monitor the head temps, that will give you enough
information about the water temps. Now because the eis had a water temp
sensor, I put it in one of the fittings on the corner of the head, and put
the head temp probe under the water temp fitting. That gives me a
comparison to check if the readings are the same.
I believe kolb or the eis manufacture, cant remember which one, suggested
that the expansion tank have a nut welded to the side of it, then drill
through the side of the tank , and the insertion probe be installed at that
location.
Either way the temps should be taken before the radiator. That would give
you the highest temp the engine / coolant is subject to....
Also another note on the 912, is that they do not recommend a minimum water
temp. thus no thermostat. They do recommend a minimum temp for the oil but
not the water. In the winter I have to tape my oil radiator to keep the
heat up... also tape the water radiator to keep the temps up so my heater
will work better.
Boyd
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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Stupid question were in the cooling system do you take the temp.
reading for a EIS probe? Rick Pearce MK3 amphib
Rick/Gang:
If you are referring to the 912 series engines, there is no
requirement to read water temp. Only cylinder head metal temperature.
This point was covered quite well in the past three 912 schools I
attended, presented by Eric Tucker.
Water Temp can not be found in the book. It is not relative to the
912.
The cylinder heads are water and oil cooled. Engine oil cools the
heads enough to be able to continue operating the engine in the event
the water cooling system has a failure, partial or catastrophic, at
reduced power to make a precautionary landing.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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| The 912 has two nipples to attach the sensors to. No problem just
unscrew the silver nut that
| holds the nipples onto the engine and put them under there. And
screw them
| back on. |
David K/Gang:
The 912 has a temp sender in the number 2 and the number 3 cylinder
head. Both these senders are reading cylinder head metal temp and not
water temp.
There is a third identical sender installed in the engine oil pump.
This sender transmits engine oil temp. If it fails, for some reason,
you can use the sender out of the number 3 cylinder head to replace
the one in the oil pump or the number 2 CHT sender.
Monitoring water temp provides no information required to operate the
912 series engines. Engine oil temp and cylinder head metal temp are
only temps necessary to monitor on the 912.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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One of the great things about this list, for me, anyway, is that it makes me look things up so I don't go off half cocked. Here is what your Friendly Aircraft Admin has to say on the subject of instrumentation.
Sec. 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the
instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved
equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of
equipment are in operable condition.
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following
instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
** (6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine. ** (Asterisks mine)
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
( Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable
landing gear.
If in doubt talk to your local FSDO and/or your DAR about local interpretation of these requirements, since it does not specifically say water temperature.
Rick Girard
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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| Sec. 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S.
| airworthiness
| certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
| ** (6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine. **
(Asterisks mine)
|
| If in doubt talk to your local FSDO and/or your DAR about local
| interpretation of these requirements, since it does not specifically
say
| water temperature.
|
| Rick Girard
|
Hi Rick/Gang:
Don't have any problem with the above, especially since it is for
"standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates". However, we here
on the Kolb List are primarily interested in Experiemental Amateur -
Built.
You are also correct, it could go for water or anything else, for that
matter. All it says is a temp gauge for each liqueid-cooled engine.
No matter, there is no requirement to monitor water temp for the 912
series engine for safe operation, or otherwise. The only requirement
is cylinder head metal temp and engine oil temp.
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jstewart(at)inebraska.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: WATER TEMP. LOCATION |
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That list is for certified aircraft. 91.205 doesn't apply. If you're not flying it night or IFR, an experimental doesn't have to have anything on it, technically.
Check out members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/1Equipping%20a%20Homebuilt%20for%20IFR%20operations.html You need to be a member to view it. In case anyone's not, I'll post the pertinent part here:
Minimum requirements;
The operation of a homebuilt aircraft is most directly governed by its Operating Limitations. These Operating Limitations are issued along with and as a part of the airworthiness certificate when the aircraft is initially inspected and licensed by the FAA. This is where the pilot must look in order to verify whether the aircraft is approved for a particular type of operation (i.e., IFR, aerobatics, etc.)
In order for the aircraft to be approved for IFR operations, the Operating Limitations must contain the following or a similarly worded statement:
“After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.”
The entry specifies that the aircraft can be operated under IFR once the initial flight test period is complete, so long as it’s equipped in accordance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205. This is the regulation that spells out the minimum equipment required for day/VFR, night/VFR, and IFR flight operations. Normally, section 91.205 would not apply to a homebuilt because it specifically refers to “powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates". However, the above operating limitation makes it applicable to homebuilts IF you want to use it for IFR.
Hope that helps. Back to lurking...
J.D. Stewart
UltraFun AirSports, LLC
www.ultrafunairsports.com
Titan Aircraft E-mail list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Titanaircraft/
Challenger E-mail list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyChallenger/
| Quote: | From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:43 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: WATER TEMP. LOCATION
One of the great things about this list, for me, anyway, is that it makes me look things up so I don't go off half cocked. Here is what your Friendly Aircraft Admin has to say on the subject of instrumentation.
Sec. 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the
instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved
equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of
equipment are in operable condition.
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following
instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
** (6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine. ** (Asterisks mine)
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
( Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable
landing gear.
If in doubt talk to your local FSDO and/or your DAR about local interpretation of these requirements, since it does not specifically say water temperature.
Rick Girard
|
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