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Seat cushion question

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:32 am Post subject: Seat cushion question

Here goes another of my silly questions:



I spend quite a bit of time designing my seat cushions (as always, I overthink some things and spent quite a bit of time trying to create the perfect seat).



Despite the effort the result is not quite optimal. After half and hour in my new seats, my tailbone starts to kill me.



I attach an image of my seat cushions. The only difference between this image and the final product is that I didn't use the top layer of pink (soft) memory foam. I only have 1 inch of hard (green) and 1 inch of medium (blue) foam. The yellow stuff is regular PU foam). 



The angles are all based on white papers (the best one being: http://mreed.umtri.umich.edu/mreed/pubs/Reed%20Seating%20Literature%20Review%202000.pdf) that go deep into the design of ideal vehicle seats. 



My suspicion is that I need more thigh support (because the high feet position and short distance to the pedals forces the thigs up and away from the seat) although the theory is that thigh pressure should be minimal as it causes discomfort and it is best to concentrate most of the weight on the tip bones at the buttocks (ischial tuberosities for those inclined to use fancy names  ). 



I will experiment with a little more thigh support but wondered what experiences people out there had with the Europa cushion design.



One of my biggest questions has to do with the seatback design. As you an see form the picture, mine tries to provide reasonable back angle, but that also reduces the distance to the pedals, causing the thighs to move up.



The good news is that I haven't covered the seats yet. Just modified some pillow covers to protect the foam for now.



Best Regards,

Chris

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Hi Chris

I haven't flown with seat cushions yet. As purchased from Europa they would not have worked very well. Mind you we have long wings too, so back has cut outs for teleflex spoiler cables.

Anyway we modified cushions a little, added foam and balsa backs and blue foam base. We have 2 different thickness of bases, my partner is smaller than I.:

http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/album228/

We spent a lot of time making them feel right and giving us a good view over nose, but not so high head will hit with headsets on. Amazing how a small amount of change makes such a big difference.

Ron P.

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Good info Ron.



Well, I have to say not happy with my cushions (lots of work dumped on them but at least I didn't spend the money to cover them yet, something I would recommend new builders, experiment before committing). I wish there was some info on a basic design to get started with but I guess we "don't do things because they are easy ...." 



But I have a feeling that increased thigh support will help.



My seat back looks like yours,  just not how it was built. But angle yes. Just a theory but maybe the excess angle on seat back pushes you forward, raises your legs and puts too much pressure on tailbone. I'm going to try removing the back cushion and placing a flatter piece of temporary foam. Sounds counter intuitive but will test my theory. If that doesn't work I will add some additional thigh support.



My conclusion is that the Europa seat is a bit narrow (that coming from a LongEZ owner, but that airplane is the ultimate in comfort, my opinion) and your arm touching the door sill makes you lean sideways which contributes to some discomfort. 



Will report.



Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Chris,  



We purchased seat cushions from Oregon Aero, figuring they knew more about seats (safety and comfort), and we're really glad we did. We regularly fly 1 1/2 hour flights. They are so comfortable and we have done two 4 hour legs in a day many times with no discomfort.



The only down sides are they are heavy and somewhat expensive and really hard for the first few minutes when cold (Michigan cold)!



Jim & Heather

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Thanks Jim,



I have Oregon Aero seats on the LongEZ and I agree they are very good.



To help me understand if the investment is worth it: Are the cushions drop in on the Europa? What I mean is do they take care of the challenging angles of our back rest? Or did you have to come up with some structure on the backrest and the Oregon cushions are just a few inches thick. That's the way it is in my LongEZ, the Oregon cushions are just a few inches thick and you have to add any filling you need underneath and on the back. 



Not a problem but it doesn't help figuring out the proper geometries to make our seats comfy enough.



Best Regards and Thanks,

Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Chris,



Yes, they are drop in, no structure required. We recall someone took a cockpit module to them and they made patterns from that. They even have the cut out for the pip pins that go into the spars.



I notice that Europa isn't listed on their website.  We purchased ours back in Jan Feb 2005.  From the invoice it looks like the part numbers are 



3014711-700  left cushion

3014712-700  right cushion



If they look at our old order there may be some confusion since we also purchased a third set which  sits on top and in front of the other cushions.  Heather uses that to get taller and more forward and it works in either seat. It is useful for YE rides, and is easily removed for "normal" size folks. You probably won't need that.



We'll get some photos the next time at the airport.



Jim & Heather

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:55 pm Post subject: Seat cushion question

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 14, 2022, at 8:32 AM, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Despite the effort the result is not quite optimal. After half and hour in my new seats, my tailbone starts to kill me.

 

 My suspicion is that I need more thigh support (because the high feet position and short distance to the pedals forces the thigs up and away from the seat) although the theory is that thigh pressure should be minimal as it causes discomfort and it is best to concentrate most of the weight on the tip bones at the buttocks (ischial tuberosities for those inclined to use fancy names  ). 

 

 I will experiment with a little more thigh support but wondered what experiences people out there had with the Europa cushion design.


	


Chris…Here are (first) a couple of photos of my back rest…note that I used a couple scraps of blue & green foam to form a lumbar support which I’ve found to be very effective.



I am 6’-1.



For the seat cushion, I too felt that I was not getting sufficient thigh support; note that although I extended the blue and green foam forward of the vertical face of the cockpit module, initially I had not extended the plywood seat frame enough and had to go back and add to the frame so it aligned with the foam.



BTW, Beneath my foam seat assembly, I have two thicknesses of 1” rigid insulation.



It works well for me…am just now in the process of having ultra leather covers sewn up for a little “pleat and roll” job which wraps around and is stapled into the plywood frame…frame is 1/8” mahogany plywood with edges doubled up for staples

Martin Olliver

Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 35

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Hi Chris.

I have had two Europas and on both aircraft I used aircraft pilot spec

 sheepskin as the top layer. I found them very comfortable. No problems encountered as you describe. I could put you in touch with the supplier here in the UK. They ship worldwide.  

Martin

erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:35 am Post subject: Seat cushion question

Chris,



Like others have mentioned, I too found lumbar support to be critical.  I made my own cushions using temperfoam (one layer of green and blue) for the seat bottoms which I cut to shape and reattached to conform with the cockpit module seat pan.  See picture.  



For the seat back, I used a seat cushion from an old Jeep Cherokee that my neighbor donated to the project.  I sculpted it to follow the seat back (same angle as the head rest.  The cushion is approximately 1” thick at the top and 5” at the bottom providing excellent lumbar support.  When installed in the aircraft the upper portion of the the seat back is up against the upper part of the cockpit module (the same surface that the head rest attaches to.  This creates a pocket behind the cushion as the cockpit module transitions to vertical.  I fill the space with a roll of paper towels, window cleaner and rags, fuel tester and a few other tools.  The front of the seat back cushion contacts seat bottom cushion just few inches from the crease in the lower seat as it extends forward.  Hope that makes sense.  See picture. 



When I am seated my rear end and tail bone is on the inclined portion of the lower seat cushion.  I must say it is very comfortable.  I fly over 5 hour legs when I travel cross county and no discomfort.  Don’t get me wrong I am ready to get out of the plane at this point.  Five hours sitting is a long time no matter how comfortable the seat.  BTW, I am 6’1” tall.  



Erich

N28ET

Classic Mono 914

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Thanks to all for the postings. All this information sure is helping understand what you are doing out there. 



The good news is that it seems my seats can be improved.



Martin, please send me the info for the gentleman that makes the seats or covers. Never hurts to have the information.



Erich, I understood your explanation. I like your idea of leaving the space between the vertical section of the cockpit module and the back of the seat back open to store some items. Very clever and sure simplifies dealing with the wing attachment pins. However I have a question about that: What keeps the bottom of your seat back from sliding aft?



My seat is similar but differs from two points: 



1.- I have a small piece of blue Styrofoam (seen as dark blue in my posted CAD image, at the intersection of the two angles at the seat bottom) that extends the seat thigh support.

2.- My seat follows the headrest and small portion of cockpit module angle plus two inches of foam thickness. Then there is the lumbar support. I think that Erich's backrest sits much further forward at the bottom than mine. The bottom of my seat is quite thick but it is all foam. It's 5 inches but that is from the cockpit module vertical wall. Erich, could you please measure the distance in your seat as I did in mine? See picture.



I think I am going to experiment with additional thigh support first. Then I am intrigued by the way you did your seat back Erich. Much simpler and I like the storage space idea.



Apologies for all the questions and requests but I am very close to having all the info I need to try a few ideas and I appreciate the help.



Best Regards,

Chris

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

BTW, and if anyone wonders, I sew together some pillow covers to protect the foam. It is my intent to have them professionally covered once I am happy with the design. I have 3mm plywood bases both on the bottom and back to make the cushions a little more stable. It ads a little weight but works very well. You can step on the cushions and they don't move.



The foam is already bonded to the wood base so I hope my modifications don't involve ripping foam out (maybe a little if I go with Erich's route and create a void behind the backrest).



Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Here are some photos of our Oregon Aero seats.  



Jim & Heather

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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:11 am Post subject: Seat cushion question

Jim…Do you have any idea what current cost would be?



Sent from my iPhone 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 17, 2022, at 9:07 AM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Here are some photos of our Oregon Aero seats.  

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506071#506071

 

 

 

 

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erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:14 pm Post subject: Seat cushion question

Chris,



I measured the distance from the vertical surface to the front of the seat cushion and it’s approximately 8” which jives with the 3” cavity I have behind the 5” thick cushion.  



A 3” spacer prevents the cushion from sliding aft.  



Let me know if you have any more questions.  



Erich

N28ET

Classic Mono 914

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

One aspect that new builders could forget it to enable the seat cushion to pivot up against the backrest for entry and exit.  



To get in from the front or back side of the wing means you end up with your butt sat on the headrest and your feet on the seat base.



To avoid getting the seat base cushion messed up it needs to be lifted and rotated against the backrest.



The cushion is restored to its rightful place as you slide in.



Pretty obvious to seasoned pilots but not necessarily for newbies.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Once again, thanks to all for the valuable feedback. I believe I have enough for continuing tweaking my cushions. 



I am planning a x-country this weekend so will first try increasing thigh support. I am a little hesitant to increase the lumbar support since I have quite a bit already (not as much as Erich) and like having my legs stretched while flying and I am at a limit there but will try that if all else fails.



Thanks,

Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Seat cushion question

Fred, 



Back in 2005 we paid $350 for each pair of cushions and $1200 for upholstery, which is just blue fabric.



Today I looked at the website and bare cushions for Lancair 360 and others similar to Europa run $400 to $500 per seat (2 cushions).  Upholstery is extra.



There is a new set of RV8 cushions on VAF that are upholstered in leather and the asking price is $6000, supposed new price is $6900.



Jim

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:14 pm Post subject: Seat cushion question

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Feb 18, 2022, at 6:39 AM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>Fred, Back in 2005 we paid $350 for each pair of cushions and $1200 for upholstery, which is just blue fabric.

	


	That’s about what I’ve paid for mine with fabric being synthetic leather…I’ll send you some pixs when I get them completed... 	  Quote: 	
		  Today I looked at the website and bare cushions for Lancair 360 and others similar to Europa run $400 to $500 per seat (2 cushions).  Upholstery is extra.There is a new set of RV8 cushions on VAF that are upholstered in leather and the asking price is $6000, supposed new price is $6900.

	


	Geezus…no expense spared…!! 	  Quote: 	
		  Jim

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