Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

MOD/247/012

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:52 pm Post subject: MOD/247/012

Avi,Has it become a mandatory Airworthy Directive in Australia? Here in NZ it has, as our CAA tends to follow UK CAA. I have just installed it, not a good look!

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 12/03/2022, at 7:19 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>



Issues I have with this modification;

1. Call me annal, drilling holes into and through the fuselage skin establishes a stress point that may not but could lead to something worse than a door departing the aircraft; this possibility has not been adequately addressed yet.



2. I don’t believe this modification sufficiently negates the possibility of the inexperienced from still, somehow, getting the door misaligned and locked at the same time. Although it is a good attempt and may very well work, lets hope all the time, it still lends itself to operational failure. It’s not 100% idiot proof... And not everyone is nimble enough to visually check, so we are back to square one again.



Best Failsafe Solution Possible - fit two series wired switches to the end of each shoot bolt pin, per door, activating a, 100% the door is secured for take off, visual indication lamp on the instrument panel; Left Door Secured / Right Door Secured ——- Done



Sorry if I’ve offended anybody here, I simply come from the school of find the hole in the swiss cheese and “do it right or just go home”.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506296#506296



<==============================================================================bsp;           - MATR====================================================bsp;       - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

===================================

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:08 am Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

Hi Tim, i need to check on whether CASA RaAus require it so; generally these things take time to filter through bureaucratic institutions... 



whether its aesthetically pleasing to the eye is subjective on an individual perspective and needs to be put aside. My issue regards the design logic driving the modification being “preventing the latch from action as opposed to ensuring success of the latch action”; one method is 100% guaranteed while the other is not. Its just not a well thought out or executed solution to the issue at hand.



The europa is a hallmark of efficient safe design; this solution, as is, is neither efficient or safe; its adhoc...



As a group we can do better than this... we are not building lego sets here...

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:23 am Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

As per my original posts on this subject, the Mod is reactive rather than constructive.  A properly run company would have taken this in house and worked with the LAA and AAIB to create a solution proportional to the issue.  A mandatory SB issued by the LAA amounts to an MPD in plain anguage.  



The solution adopted is technically very poor.  It is also very ugly.  



The root cause of doors coming off the aircraft hasn't been addressed.  The 3d printed solution will, l suspect, not prove to be sufficiently robust.  Those who have opted to follow Iss 1 of the Mod now have closely spaced holes adjacent to a load high spot (door frame aperture), as pointed out by Area51 this could lead to degradation of the primary structure.  



I am progressing an alternate Mod that utilises a cross drilled hole in the front latch pin, secured manually by a short pip pin and pendant.  This is a positive lock that prevents the front pin from sliding backwards, thereby making the status of the rear pin irrelevant. 



Following the Iss 2 of the Mod allows the bonding of the mouldings to the aircraft skin.  This mitigates the possibility of crack propagation but makes no difference to the Ugliness.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:58 am Post subject: MOD/247/012

How does a rescuer (in the event of some emergency) open the door from the outside?



D McF.

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 13 March 2022 at 10:23 John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 As per my original posts on this subject, the Mod is reactive rather than constructive.  A properly run company would have taken this in house and worked with the LAA and AAIB to create a solution proportional to the issue.  A mandatory SB issued by the LAA amounts to an MPD in plain anguage.  

 

 The solution adopted is technically very poor.  It is also very ugly.  

 

 The root cause of doors coming off the aircraft hasn't been addressed.  The 3d printed solution will, l suspect, not prove to be sufficiently robust.  Those who have opted to follow Iss 1 of the Mod now have closely spaced holes adjacent to a load high spot (door frame aperture), as pointed out by Area51 this could lead to degradation of the primary structure.  

 

 I am progressing an alternate Mod that utilises a cross drilled hole in the front latch pin, secured manually by a short pip pin and pendant.  This is a positive lock that prevents the front pin from sliding backwards, thereby making the status of the rear pin irrelevant. 

 

 Following the Iss 2 of the Mod allows the bonding of the mouldings to the aircraft skin.  This mitigates the possibility of crack propagation but makes no difference to the Ugliness.

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506304#506304

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:56 am Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

Thanks for voicing your thoughts John, its a possible solution and Duncan has gone to my own first bit of swiss cheese thinking... I've been told warning lamps are not considered a good enough solution; why i have no idea; airbus boeing lockheed use them, but hey clearly not good enough concept for light sport aircraft... i thought about an alignment pin and cone assembly to ensure the hatch is guided into correct position and that would require cutting into the structure and somebody will still manage to somehow loose a door...



If i can offer some basic and seldom observed fit for purpose design methodology here – good design is not an instant process; the idea may be instant yes, and then it requires validation against a standard of defined presets; these are the targets or kpi's to measure the outcome against through the development process. in order to get to that outcome it's imperative to continue asking the same two questions a) how did i arrive at this solusion/idea?, and b) can I break this solution?... and you just keep going through back and forward until validation is achieved and the set standard is met; and that's it.



You have to look at all the "what ifs", and it requires the ability to sometimes be the dumbest humble person in the room and the courage to tell someone "your idea is crap, now let me tell you why".



John raised a valid point in stating the reason for the door departing the aircraft has not been addressed; he broke the solution... clearly the doors flexing too much is the root cause and real issue here... is it realistic to put an AD out to have rigid carbon or ceramic doors fitted? Probably not due to the cost... second distinction he made was the idea is reactionary... i believe John was being polite; i'm not, it's a lego brick.



One person has suggested lights and audible warning system; i think this is probably the best solution for many reasons, that's probably why boeing lockheed and airbus use it; that's the solution going into my aircraft... And yes, as with everything, as sure as the sun will shine and rain will fall, even if fitted to all europas, some idiot somewhere some day will still manage to screw up and loose a door; 100% guaranteed.

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:07 am Post subject: MOD/247/012

Fwiw, my classic has lights yes, but that third mid door shoot bolt totally solves the issue, as it is not possible to close the door without engaging it, and if it is engaged, the the rear shoot bolt is too.



A simpler solution is to add a static mid door pin, which would effectively do the same job - ie, if its engaged the so is the rear, as it would pull the door in and ensure alignment.



Cheers,

PeteZ 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 13, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks for voicing your thoughts John, its a possible solution and Duncan has gone to my own first bit of swiss cheese thinking... I've been told warning lamps are not considered a good enough solution; why i have no idea; airbus boeing lockheed use them, but hey clearly not good enough concept for light sport aircraft... i thought about an alignment pin and cone assembly to ensure the hatch is guided into correct position and that would require cutting into the structure and somebody will still manage to somehow loose a door...

 

 If i can offer some basic and seldom observed fit for purpose design methodology here – good design is not an instant process; the idea may be instant yes, and then it requires validation against a standard of defined presets; these are the targets or kpi's to measure the outcome against through the development process. in order to get to that outcome it's imperative to continue asking the same two questions a) how did i arrive at this solusion/idea?, and b) can I break this solution?... and you just keep going through back and forward until validation is achieved and the set standard is met; and that's it.

 

 You have to look at all the "what ifs", and it requires the ability to sometimes be the dumbest humble person in the room and the courage to tell someone "your idea is crap, now let me tell you why".

 

 John raised a valid point in stating the reason for the door departing the aircraft has not been addressed; he broke the solution... clearly the doors flexing too much is the root cause and real issue here... is it realistic to put an AD out to have rigid carbon or ceramic doors fitted? Probably not due to the cost... second distinction he made was the idea is reactionary... i believe John was being polite; i'm not, it's a lego brick.

 

 One person has suggested lights and audible warning system; i think this is probably the best solution for many reasons, that's probably why boeing lockheed and airbus use it; that's the solutiony going into my aircraft... And yes, as with everything, as sure as the sun will shine and rain will fall, even if fitted to all europas, some idiot somewhere some day will still manage to screw up and loose a door; 100% guaranteed.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506309#506309

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:55 am Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

Sounds like a valid concept Peter and would affectively provide similar and greater function as John's pip pin idea mentioned above... so if i read the concept correctly an additional center located shoot bolt drives vertically down as the outer existing ones drive outward? That would provide me the cone and pin alighnment solution i was seeking... what's involved to affect this mod and has anyone installed it on an aircraft yet? Sounds pretty idiot proof... is it breakable?

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: MOD/247/012

I plan on the passive fixed version for my build, but Troy Manor implemented the center active shoot bolt very successfully on my flying mono. Works great. I believe there are also others, to reduce the door bowing outward at higher cruise speeds- its original intent.



PeteZ

C-GNPZ

classic



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 13, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Sounds like a valid concept Peter and would affectively provide similar and greater function as John's pip pin idea mentioned above... so if i read the concept correctly an additional center located shoot bolt drives vertically down as the outer existing ones drive outward? That would provide me the cone and pin alighnment solution i was seeking... what's involved to affect this mod and has anyone installed it on an aircraff yet? Sounds pretty idiot proof...

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506311#506311

 

 

 

 

 

 

====================================
	


====================================

====================================

====================================

====================================

 	  Quote:

image0.png

Description:

Filesize:

310.27 KB

Viewed:

4761 Time(s)

image1.png

Description:

Filesize:

317.91 KB

Viewed:

4761 Time(s)

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

Here are my notes concerning the passive version.  I got these many years ago and have thought about installing but have not as yet.



Jim

Sketch.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

49.27 KB

Viewed:

4739 Time(s)

Sill_part_129.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

45.64 KB

Viewed:

4739 Time(s)

Door_part_830.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

38.75 KB

Viewed:

4739 Time(s)

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

Thanks Jim, your notes there answered my question regarding Peter's input and how the passive concept works and how the door is opened from the outside in the event of an emergency. I must have a really well constructed build; have not experienced these levels of door flexure. Would appear they are fabricated with not enough layup layers in the first place perhaps?



The passive system is workable however it addresses a separate issue and doesn't meet what I would consider sufficient to mitigate the overall risk in review... Peter are there any drawings available of Troy's mod? The position of the third pin is not at a stress point, so I have no issue cutting into the door or channel and adding additional reinforcing layups; it addresses the overall risk quite well, why has the factory not addressed this earlier?  



I'm keen to hear from other aircraft owners on how this mod may not sufficiently meet the existing risk factor, it's the best solution I have seen presented so far.



I really appreciate the input from everybody.

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:49 pm Post subject: MOD/247/012

Sorry, nope, its a roll your own deal 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 13, 2022, at 6:36 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks Jim, your notes there answered my question regarding Peter's input and how the passive concept works and how the door is opened from the outside in the event of an emergency. I must have a really well constructed build; have not experienced these levels of door flexure. Would appear they are not fabricated with not enough layup layers in the first place perhaps?

 

 The passive system is workable however it addresses a separate issue and doesn't meet what I would consider sufficient to mitigate the overall risk in review... Peter are there any drawings available of Troy's mod? The position of the third pin is not at a stress point, so I have no issue cutting into the door or channel and adding additional reinforcing layups; it addresses the overall risk quite well, why has the factory not addressed this earlier?  

 

 I'm keen to hear from other aircraft owners on how this mod may not sufficiently meet the existing risk factor, it's the best solution I have seen presented so far.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506315#506315

freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:59 pm Post subject: MOD/247/012

I love Jim’s solution with the little blocks; as I understand it, not only does it prevent the shoot bolts from engaging unless the door is properly aligned for both front and rear bolts, but it also has the potential for solving the unsightly bulge when the door is locked in place. I definitely will be adding them.

In my case, in order to ensure that the rear shoot bolt is properly aligned, I’ve found it necessary to add a little hand-hold (a scrap of 1/8” Lastafoam w/ a couple of layers of BID) which, when in the right seat, I reach across my chest with my right hand, pull the door inward, while my left hand throws the latch into the forward and locked position…Bob’s your uncle !!



Fred



[img]cid:6DF7A07C-5225-4502-95CD-E73BD2E4CBCA[/img] 	  Quote: 	
		  On Mar 13, 2022, at 2:58 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>Here are my notes concerning the passive version.  I got these many years ago and have thought about installing but have not as yet.JimAttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/sketch_190.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/sill_part_129_117.jpghttp://forums.matronics.com//files/door_part_830_894.jpg

IMG_4632.jpeg

Description:

Filesize:

135.74 KB

Viewed:

4720 Time(s)

dmac7

Joined: 05 Apr 2019
Posts: 48
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

For anyone interested in further ideas with a third shoot bolt, I suggest they look at cliff Shaw's album of photos on europaowners.org he left photos of a design he got from " Bob " it has no shoot bolts in the door but has three just the same they are in the fuselage and door handle is also on fuselage under the door.  Keeps his door light and secure.  The third shoot bolt was a topic of discussion on the list back 20 years ago.

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: MOD/247/012

It's my understanding that the LAA is the body responsible for initiating and approving the lego brick as fit for purpose and not the factory?? Somebody, maybe more than one, clearly needs to go back to school there urgently... The lego brick is a very lazy and grossly inadequate effort. Was therer any public/community consultation on this issue?

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:24 am Post subject: MOD/247/012

Indeed that page has the design that Troy incorporated in his door, adding to the stock linkage:

http://europaowners.org/gallery2/v/WileE/Three-Shoot-bolts/Bob_s3rdshootbolt.jpg.html

Cheers,

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Mar 13, 2022, at 11:05 PM, dmac7 <dmac7(at)outlook.com> wrote:



--> Europa-List message posted by: "dmac7" <dmac7(at)outlook.com>



For anyone interested in further ideas with a third shoot bolt, I suggest they look at cliff Shaw's album of photos on europaowners.org he left photos of a design he got from " Bob " it has no shoot bolts in the door but has three just the same they are in the fuselage and door handle is also on fuselage under the door.  Keeps his door light and secure.  The third shoot bolt was a topic of discussion on the list back 20 years ago.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506318#506318



<==============================================================================bsp;          - MATRONICS W====================================================;      - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

<====================================================bsp;     - List Contribution Web Site -

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum