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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1705 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a certified |
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I doubt you want to go through the process of getting field approval 337
on an aircraft that is becoming increasingly rare. Much easier way to
get a backup is leave the vacuum pump alone to power DG and AH. Get one
of Sporty's attitude indicators that are electric powered and can
replace a turn coordinator directly per FAA Advisory circular. That
gives you a backup attitude indicator if the vacuum quits.
Dave N6030X wrote:
Quote: |
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
I am buying a 1960 Mooney M20A with a Lycoming O-360-A1A engine which of
course includes a vacuum pump and the usual vacuum instruments. The
familiar T-arrangement on the instrument panel had not been conceived of
yet in 1960.
My last 13 years have been spent in the experimental world doing pretty
much whatever I pleased, so I'm new to the whole certified world of 337s
and PMAs and STCs and the like.
I would dearly love to hire an A&P mechanic to pull out the vacuum pump
and vacuum instruments, put a B&C backup alternator on the vacuum pad,
mount a Flight Cheetah with XM Weather and solid state Artificial
Horizon at the center of a high-tech T-arrangement, re-do the instrument
panel so the instruments are more logically laid out, put the critical
engine monitoring instruments on the left side where I can see them, etc.
What latitudes does one have to do that sort of thing? Can you put a
B&C backup alternator on any airplane?
For reference, here's the "shotgun" instrument panel of the 60's:
Left side: http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20N6030X/IMG_1639.jpg
Right side: http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20N6030X/IMG_1641.jpg
This is the coolest breakthrough in glass: Flight Cheetah:
http://www.aviationsafety.com/products.htm
By the way, this is a shot of one of the brand new engines going into a
Mooney Ovation about to roll off the production line (I believe it's a
Continental IO-540 or 550). You can't see it in the photo, but it sports
a B&C backup alternator because of the Garmin G1000 glass cockpit and
lack of need for vacuum instruments:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20Factory%20Tour/IMG_1611.jpg
Dave Morris
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1705 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a certified |
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The Sporty's or other electric AI gives him an all electric backup to
the vacuum gyros without worrying about all the other stuff. Better than
the SVS system as no power setting changes needed, and FAA has already
blessed using electric AI to replace electric T&B or TC with an advisory
circular.
Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote: |
On Jul 29, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Dave N6030X wrote:
> I would dearly love to hire an A&P mechanic to pull out the vacuum
> pump and vacuum instruments, put a B&C backup alternator on the vacuum
> pad, mount a Flight Cheetah with XM Weather and solid state Artificial
> Horizon at the center of a high-tech T-arrangement, re-do the
> instrument panel so the instruments are more logically laid out, put
> the critical engine monitoring instruments on the left side where I
> can see them, etc.
>
> What latitudes does one have to do that sort of thing? Can you put a
> B&C backup alternator on any airplane?
I have done some of this with certified aircraft in the past but not as
completely as you are suggesting. I have done it for a Piper Comanche
and a Piper Clipper.
What you are after is a one-time STC on a form 337 for alternations.
Fabricating a new panel and rearranging the locations of instruments
does not require a 337 so long as the it does not require modification
of any load-bearing structure. In my Comanche the panels are on
vibration isolators and are not structural. I was able to move
instruments to construct a "modern" 6-pack layout and center stack for
my radios without any problem.
In my Comanche I also constructed an e-bus out of what was the avionics
bus and added a second battery charged by the main battery through a
diode. The second battery could be directly switched to the e-bus to
power selected radios and TC. That did require a 337 but it did not seem
to give the FSDO heartburn. The only problem is, I did that in 1985 and
they seem to have been more flexible then than they are now.
As for adding a B&C dynamo, you can probably forget it. The FAA tried to
put Bill Bainbridge out of business on the basis that he was
intentionally selling his stuff to people for their certified aircraft
(it was another Bob Hoover deal). They eventually backed down under
pressure from the community but it had to go all the way up to the
Administrator before it got fixed.
I also kept the vacuum instruments and added a Precise Flight standby
vacuum system. It requires me to reduce throttle to generate vacuum in
the intake manifold but it works just fine and will get you back on the
ground.
It would make so much sense to build an all-electric panel but the FAA
is risk-averse and probably won't buy into that idea. I am going to try
to talk the FSDO into signing off on adding a Dynon to the panel without
removing any of the existing instruments. If all the certified stuff
remains they shouldn't have a problem. The only worry I have is that I
will have to tap into the pitot-static system and that may bother them.
We'll see.
Good luck!
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a certified |
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The best answer is come up with a game plane and go talk to your
local friendly FAA. What every I say or anyone says on this forum
does not matter. But this is my opinion on the subject as both
a owner of a few factory planes and builder and pilot of experimentals.
I also worked in certification for a large plane maker, that starts
with B.
You are correct modification of experimentals are pretty open. However
when it gets to EFIS / NAV for IFR flight in experimentals there is
some controversy. Do you need STC approved equip? That is another
story, but there are some parallels to your situatuin.
You are focused on Panel/avionics/electrical mods. I would divide
that up into two or three categories. We'll forget engine/airframe mods:
-flight/nav inst,
-engine/syst
-backup electrical power.
I did a lot of certification work on large transport categories and the
FAA works very happily on precedent's and no impact. This mean
if you do something that has been done and approved before or has
no effect on the aircraft if it works or does not work, for example a
back-up alternator, great, get it through easier. This is especially
true if it's been approved on your engine/airframe before. Some
companies may have a STC approved mod for a backup alternator.
Check B&C out for example.
Now flight instruments are another issue. They are more critical. I
don't think a FL190 is going to cut it, but if you want a Chelton
for $40,000 to $60,000, I think you could pull that off. If you pay
for the labor it could be very expensive MOD. I don't want to get
into owner maintenance but you can work on a certified plane, but
you may need direct supervision of an A&P for some things. Do
you have any A&P friend? In the end however the FAA needs to
approve the modification. Again early communcation with the FAA
is critical.
You could imagine a whole glass cockpit, bring it in and let them
design, install and approve it could cost well over $100,000. That
is penuts for a $30 mil jet, but a a single engine piston a bit steep.
Of course you can drop $8,000-$14,000 on a Garmin panel
mount GPS/NAV/COM. That's a no brainer. Again to pay to
have it installed you are looking to take a dent out of up to
$20,000. But why can't you use a Blue Mountain EFIS with
GPS nav or Grand Rapids EFIS/GPS? I don't know ask the
FAA. My guess is the answer is they are not STC'ed.
Don't quote me I know one guy was allowed the Dynon EFIS
while he retained his Vac instruments. Again it goes under the
FAA's no work, no harm, no foul rule. Keep the original and use
the glass as a back-up only, much like they way they treat a
handheld GPS. A handheld GPS is there as a refrence but it's
not hard mounted, so the FAA doesn't care, see no evil hear no evil.
You could install some portable EFIS using PDA's? I know that
is not what you want, but you could do that today. Heck the
FL190 EFIS could go in as long as you keep the Vac and
don't hard mount it. There are several other portable EFIS
and Engine monitoring systems you might be able to install
with no approvals, but that is not what you want I guess, since
it would require you keep all the old inst's/gauges.
Back up alternator, pretty benign modification. You should
be able to get a back-up Gen approved some how. There may
be existing STC's out there or you may be apple to get a
one off field approval. B&C can help you there since they
have some Cessna or Beech STC's and experience with the
FAA.
There are some STC approved engine monitors out there now from
JPI and EI. Of course you will pay the price of an experimental unit,
just like a EFIS. I think the price in around $5,000
I know some "experimental" engine monitors have been allowed to
be installed, as long as they kept the old original analog gauges; again
they are looking at a fail passive or non critical installation. Put it in, as
long as it does not affect the planes airworthiness, working or not.
Can I put experimental stuff into my certified plane?
Ans: Not easily but depends on the FAA branch you are talking
to. I think they are getting better being more consistent across
regions.
Look you can do anything. Heck you could in theory turn you Mooney
into an experimental. It has been done before, but it's not likely they
will allow you to do that to get an experimental panel you want.
Look at old DC-8's and 727's, they get new engine or glass cockpits.
It is about documentation and the equipment you are installing. There
is no reason you can't put a business jet glass cockpit in, but I
don't think you want to put that kind of money into a Mooney. Those
Vac insts and analog gauges are looking better all the time$$.
Really I call it inertia. Don't get caught into the shinny object, got
to have the best, latest. What is your Mooney going to do better
with a glass cockpit? You already have the analog gauges and
they work. In fact your panel looks pretty cool to me. Retro yes
but that has a charm. I know the latest RV or Lancair panel
at the airshow might give you panel envy, but I say so what.
It can be done but takes time, money, paperwork and may be a DER
sign off (designated engineering representative).
My advice is research as much as you can to find any STC's already
issued for your Mooney, whether a one OFF STC for an individual,
or one from a company that has blanket approval for a particular
piece of equip or mod.
Ask the FAA first. Have your paper work and research and present
it to them face to face. Do that before even thinking about doing it.
Call the companies whose equip you think you want and ask them.
If there is FAA precedence, previous approvals, they grease the wheels
and make your life easier. Do your research before you start
pulling stuff out. OLD does not mean bad. I know guys who have
done some pretty big mods, and others who could not get a
electronic tachometer into there Cessna. Look for products that
have been STC'ed already.
You did not mention airframe mods but there are tons of Mooney
Mod companies, LoPresti. In theory you could copy a LoPresti
cowl and say you want to flight test it and get a flight test approval,
essentially turning your plane into an experimental for the purpose
of testing the cowl. You could collect data and present it to the
FAA and say it still meets the FAR's. They then would approve
you cowl. In theory you could produce that cowl and sell it with
a STC, if the FAA gave you that approval. Not sure there are one
off approvals and ones with broad coverage. All approved mods
have to go through the process. You can do it our buy something
where the work was already done. In the case of the panel you
buy a STC approve EIFS, Engine Monitor, Back up Gen you are
good to go, or at least good to try for approval in you application.
I think you can get your panel layout better by cutting and
rearranging and that the FAA may not even care about.
Good Luck Geroge RV-4/RV-7
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com (N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com)>
Subject: What upgrades are possible on a certified
plane?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com (N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com)>
I am buying a 1960 Mooney M20A with a Lycoming O-360-A1A engine which
of course includes a vacuum pump and the usual vacuum
instruments. The familiar T-arrangement on the instrument panel had
not been conceived of yet in 1960.
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