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Bowed doors

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:09 am Post subject: Bowed doors

Both my doors are bowed about 1/8 to 1/4 inch.



Any suggestions?

Thanks

Will

William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Bowed doors

Hi Will,



Not sure I can (or should) recommend much but I would touch bases with Bud. He has a nice write up on building the doors and make them fit properly. Heat is mentioned a lot but on a door that is already built not sure how that would go.



I would think that removing the doors, fixturing carefully to impart stress in the direction you want to correct the bow and judicious application of heat would be the way to go.



Also, depending on where the bow is (you don't mention), there has been a lot of discussion on installing a latch half way at the bottom of the door.



But don't take my word for it since I really never had a need to do something like that. My doors where already built and are actually the doors used on the Europa USA mockup they used at the shows (or so I was told) and I think that the years heat and abuse has cured them enough to make them hold their shape 



Best Regards,

Chris

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:17 am Post subject: Bowed doors

yeah - 

part of the issue, well more precisely 50% of the issue, is the extremely thick (and heavy door) seal which is hard to compress.  I am seriously thinking about installing a Home depot soft draft excluder.

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 4:44 PM n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Will,

 

 Not sure I can (or should) recommend much but I would touch bases with Bud. He has a nice write up on building the doors and make them fit properly. Heat is mentioned a lot but on a door that is already built not sure how that would go.

 

 I would think that removing the doors, Fixturing carefully to impart stress in the direction you want to correct the bow and judicious application of heat would be the way to go.

 

 Depending on where the bow is (you don't mention) there has been a lot of discussion on installing a latch half way at the bottom of the door.

 

 But don't take my word for it since I really never had a need to do something like that. My doors where already built and are actually the doors used on the Europa USA mockup they used at the shows (or so I was told) and I think that the years heat and abuse has cured them enough to make them hold their shape!.

 

 Best Regards,

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506594#506594

 

 

 

 

 

 

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alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:10 pm Post subject: Bowed doors

I got a thinner door seal but the same section, from Woolies, in the UK. Made all the difference, after struggling for months.Alan

G-GIWT Motorglider



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		  On 27 Apr 2022, at 18:36, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:



yeah - 

part of the issue, well more precisely 50% of the issue, is the extremely thick (and heavy door) seal which is hard to compress.  I am seriously thinking about installing a Home depot soft draft excluder.

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 4:44 PM n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Will,

 

 Not sure I can (or should) recommend much but I would touch bases with Bud. He has a nice write up on building the doors and make them fit properly. Heat is mentioned a lot but on a door that is already built not sure how that would go.

 

 I would think that removing the doors, Fixturing carefully to impart stress in the direction you want to correct the bow and judicious application of heat would be the way to go.

 

 Depending on where the bow is (you don't mention) there has been a lot of discussion on installing a latch half way at the bottom of the door.

 

 But don't take my word for it since I really never had a need to do something like that. My doors where already built and are actually the doors used on the Europa USA mockup they used at the shows (or so I was told) and I think that the years heat and abuse has cured them enough to make them hold their shape!.

 

 Best Regards,

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506594#506594

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:14 am Post subject: Bowed doors

Hi Will,



I came to the same conclusion. I replaced the factory door seals and rolled my own.  I used a silicone bulb type seal made for residential use manufactured by Frost King. 



Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it is produced any longer.  I bonded the seal to to an edge protector (similar to the stock door seal) using 3m type double sided adhesive tape.  The self adhesive that came on the Frost King didn’t adhere well and I had to remove it.  The 3m tape works very well.   



No bowing of the doors.  I also, included a picture of the edge protector prior to bonding the seal in place. 



Erich Trombley

N28ET

Classic Mono 914

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Bowed doors

I really like the option offered by Erich. I searched for that Frost-King material and sure enough couldn't find it.



However, I do use the white EPDM seal from Frost-King in my LongEZ with great results. 



Here is a picture of one with the dimensions as what Erich used. Comes in black too.



Chris

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Bowed doors

Apologies to the group. Jumped the gun and didn't realize the material is 5/16" wide, not tall as Erich's. Still looking but the EPDM seal is an option.

Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Bowed doors

Will,



We replaced the original factory door seals with ones from McMaster Carr.  Here is a link to the page:  https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/3850



The one we use is PN 12335A44.  



Our doors fit perfectly when we built the plane until we installed the factor door seal.  Then they bowed.  We were told to just let the doors be exposed to outdoor heat and that would correct the bowing.  It never did.  The above seal is better, but the rear of the doors still bow out some.  But they don't leak rain and they are flush at the front.  They haven't changed in years.



Jim

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 4:56 am Post subject: Bowed doors

Thank youMuch appreciated.



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246



On Thu, May 5, 2022, 22:27 h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Will,

 

 We replaced the original factory door seals with ones from McMaster Carr.  Here is a link to the page:  https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/3850

 

 The one we use is PN 12335A44.  

 

 Our doors fit perfectly when we built the plane until we installed the factor door seal.  Then they bowed.  We were told to just let the doors be exposed to outdoor heat and that would correct the bowing.  It never did.  The above seal is better, but the rear of the doors still bow out some.  But they don't leak rain and they are flush at the front.  They haven't changed in years.

 

 Jim

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506677#506677

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Bowed doors

Will,

Two things:

I don't blame the door seal.  It mainly is the fit of the door/shoot bolts.  See Tech Tip from long ago.  Should be on my website also.  If you don't see them I can resend.



I actually have a thicker door seal (5/8") on 12AY.  But the bulb is a thinner material and slightly softer.  The door is designed so that when properly fitted it has a 12mm to 1/2 inch gap between the cockpit flashing and the door.  That is plenty.  A door that is poorly fitting enough that one must pull, attach cables to, or knobs and still fails to seat, needs a tune-up to correct the fit.  As Chris said, I have written on this issue.  See my website on hinging and also on refitting a door (handy if you loose one).  I wrote these up as instructions to clients unable to come to the shop and have me do their installation.  Their doors are just fine.  Especially with them taking time to adjust the clamshell properly.



I chose the thicker bulb seal for the gap that forms at high speed cruise as the doors flex a bit by the low pressure area on top and sides.  Annoying, but in Florida, not an extreme issue.  However, by adding the slightly larger bulb, it cured my drafty issue when cruising above 10,000 in my shorts and T shirt.  



About the doors:

Doors should close and latch with one finger from the outside or inside.  In cold weather like in the UK and Canada, the seals do get hard and frankly, a bit of push down with bulky clothes on is tough to do.  A small knob on the back of the door is assurance that you have the door in the rebate ready for the latch to fall.  But again, push the handle down vertically rather than yanking it inboard (as most do).  The lip of the door may hang up on the exterior or if you didn't round your shoot bolt guides nicely, the two shoot bolt guides may hit one another and prevent proper seating.  I've never really pushed the community on properly rounding the shoot bolt guides to help align the door.  The guides are tapered but a small lip can be quite a hangup.  I"ve always sloped my guide protrusions for a nice slip fit.  I also use a 1/32" 960-8L washer between my shoot bolt guides while they are curing in place to give me a little play and a better "slip fit".  I also do an alternate mod 66 for my door struts.  Using the LSTechnologies struts I suggested is quite handy as the door stays open but once past 3/4 down, the strut does not hold the door open.  It is all about geometry.



No one likes to do a door refit, but it is worth the time.  Most installers do not understand how a clamshell door fits (even fewer of the secondhand owners do) nor do most builders understand the geometry of the curved clamshell and consequently fail to properly adjust the door guides, and glass installation to allow the door to fit the door gap perfectly.



As for seals:  Go on-line, there are many different shapes and sizes of door seals.  I prefer the round rather than U shape bulb.  Sizes can be had from 3/8 to 3/4 inch diameter and bulb thickness from 1mm to nearly 2mm, so there are many to choose from.  Or as some have done, make your own if you can live with your door fit.  



Remember, don't pull in to close, push down on the sill and latching ease is enhanced.  All the lights, and gimmicks to assure closing doesn't replace a push on the lower door prior to takeoff as a "last chance" doors closed and locked check.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 1:12 am Post subject: Bowed doors

Hi Bud,

Got an  LSTechnologies struts P/N?

Thx,

Pete



On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 10:18 PM budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com) <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)" <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>

 

 Will,

 Two things:

 I don't blame the door seal.  It mainly is the fit of the door/shoot bolts.  See Tech Tip from long ago.  Should be on my website also.  If you don't see them I can resend.

 

 I actually have a thicker door seal (5/8") on 12AY.  But the bulb is a thinner material and slightly softer.  The door is designed so that when properly fitted it has a 12mm to 1/2 inch gap between the cockpit flashing and the door.  That is plenty.  A door that is poorly fitting enough that one must pull, attach cables to, or knobs and still fails to seat, needs a tune-up to correct the fit.  As Chris said, I have written on this issue.  See my website on hinging and also on refitting a door (handy if you loose one).  I wrote these up as instructions to clients unable to come to the shop and have me do their installation.  Their doors are just fine.  Especially with them taking time to adjust the clamshell properly.

 

 I chose the thicker bulb seal for the gap that forms at high speed cruise as the doors flex a bit by the low pressure area on top and sides.  Annoying, but in Florida, not an extreme issue.  However, by adding the slightly larger bulb, it cured my drafty issue when cruising above 10,000 in my shorts and T shirt.  

 

 About the doors:

 Doors should close and latch with one finger from the outside or inside.  In cold weather like in the UK and Canada, the seals do get hard and frankly, a bit of push down with bulky clothes on is tough to do.  A small knob on the back of the door is assurance that you have the door in the rebate ready for the latch to fall.  But again, push the handle down vertically rather than yanking it inboard (as most do).  The lip of the door may hang up on the exterior or if you didn't round your shoot bolt guides nicely, the two shoot bolt guides may hit one another and prevent proper seating.  I've never really pushed the community on properly rounding the shoot bolt guides to help align the door.  The guides are tapered but a small lip can be quite a hangup.  I"ve always sloped my guide protrusions for a nice slip fit.  I also use a 1/32" 960-8L washer between my shoot bolt guides while they are curing in place to give me a little play and a better "slip fit".  I also do an alterna!

  te mod 66 for my door struts.  Using the LSTechnologies struts I suggested is quite handy as the door stays open but once past 3/4 down, the strut does not hold the door open.  It is all about geometry.

 

 No one likes to do a door refit, but it is worth the time.  Most installers do not understand how a clamshell door fits (even fewer of the secondhand owners do) nor do most builders understand the geometry of the curved clamshell and consequently fail to properly adjust the door guides, and glass installation to allow the door to fit the door gap perfectly.

 

 As for seals:  Go on-line, there are many different shapes and sizes of door seals.  I prefer the round rather than U shape bulb.  Sizes can be had from 3/8 to 3/4 inch diameter and bulb thickness from 1mm to nearly 2mm, so there are many to choose from.  Or as some have done, make your own if you can live with your door fit.  

 

 Remember, don't pull in to close, push down on the sill and latching ease is enhanced.  All the lights, and gimmicks to assure closing doesn't replace a push on the lower door prior to takeoff as a "last chance" doors closed and locked check.

 

 Best Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506715#506715

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

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 ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

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