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Control positioning during ground handling
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

I've been having a discussion off list with another Kolb flyer about control positioning while taxing. I remarked that I never taxi without the stick full forward and the ailerons set to "dive away from the wind" in a cross and down wind condition. He does the opposite, but hadn't really given it much thought, and suggested bringing the discussion to the list for a general poll. 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Rick

When I was in training my CFI told me "Stick all the way back all the  

time you're on the ground'

So I did.

Until in a strong gusty wind, taxiing after landing, a gust hit me  

and suddenly I was 5 feet in the air and rapidly going over  

backwards! -- (Cessna 170) an attention-getter to be sure. I caught  

it, no damage, but then realized that was very poor advice

Stick should be FORWARD in any kind of headwind -- then  a gust will  

simply lif the tail.

It's a simple concept -- put the stick INTO the wind if it's from the  

front, and AWAY from the wind if it's from anywhere aft. It positions  

the aelirons correctly too, to avoid lifting a wing.

This will keep you out of trouble. This kind of trouble, anyway.

Russ Kinne



On Jul 28, 2006, at 11:58 AM, Richard Girard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've been having a discussion off list with another Kolb flyer  

 about control positioning while taxing. I remarked that I never  

 taxi without the stick full forward and the ailerons set to "dive  

 away from the wind" in a cross and down wind condition. He does the  

 opposite, but hadn't really given it much thought, and suggested  

 bringing the discussion to the list for a general poll.



 -- 

 Rick Girard

 "Ya'll drop on in"

 takes on a whole new meaning

 when you live at the airport.

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

Here's a "saying" that I was taught and it's easy to remember....



 Wind Behind - "Blows the stick"



Headwind -  "Pull back , stick into wind"



 This was a GREAT "saying" for "ME" , otherwise I had to think about it too

much.....



                                 Gotta Fly...

                                                 Mike in MN



PS "saying" was told to me by a long time Pilot & instructor at Stanton

Airport, His name is Hank... ( he's got a Purty Cub )

dcreech3(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Or: "CLIMB TOWARD THE WIND; DIVE AWAY FROM IT."  Putting this mantra into 

effect will result in best positioning of both elevator and ailerons. For 

practice, it's an interesting exercise to taxi in a circle while maintaining 

the proper stick position all the way around.  For example, if you start 

with a quartering left headwind, the stick will be in the left rear corner 

(you're "climbing toward" the wind.)  As you turn to the left, the stick 

moves laterally to the right and ends up in the right rear corner, as the 

relative wind moves across the nose to the right.  As you continue the turn, 

the stick then moves on a diagonal, through the center position as the wind 

crosses the beam, reaching the forward left corner as the wind becomes a 

quartering right tailwind. (You're "diving away" from the wind now).  

Continuing the turn, the stick moves sideways to the forward right corner as 

the wind reaches the left side of the tail, and then finally back on the 

opposite diagonal as the wind comes around the wingtip to the left side of 

the nose again.  So the stick pattern is an "X" connected by sideways 

movements at the top and bottom.  A little hard to describe, but easy to 

visualize and remember once you've done it.



Of course, no Kolb driver ever forgets the special significance of the 

relationship between elevator and throttle position!  



Lee

Firestar II



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:33:16 -0700






Here's a "saying" that I was taught and it's easy to remember....



  Wind Behind - "Blows the stick"



Headwind -  "Pull back , stick into wind"



  This was a GREAT "saying" for "ME" , otherwise I had to think about it 

too

much.....



                                  Gotta Fly...

                                                  Mike in MN



PS "saying" was told to me by a long time Pilot & instructor at Stanton

Airport, His name is Hank... ( he's got a Purty Cub )



--------

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Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50397#50397


	


_________________________________________________________________

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Kolbers,



Place a little yarn on the windshield so you are not surprised by wind 

direction. Always hold the stick into the wind.  If the wind is from the 

left, hold the stick to the left to side slip into the wind.  If the wind is 

from the front, hold the stick to the front to prevent climbing.  If the 

wind is from the tail hold the stick back to prevent the wind from raising 

the tail.  And use combinations for quartering winds.



Jack B. Hart FF004 

Winchester, IN

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Looking at an old  '53 Cessna 172 Pilots' Handbook, I see the exact  

stick procedure that is presented in these mgs. As I was taught in  

'40, use the stick like a potato masher: mash it around in all four  

quadrants, according to the wind's direction vs plane.



regards,

Bob N.

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

So far, I have not found fault in anything that Wolfgang mentioned in

his classic book "Stick and Rudder".  Have always tried to put the yoke

or stick where he recommends in all kinds of wind situations.  Works

every time......so far.  One thing that I have noticed is that some

pilots do not understand the yaw control offered by the ailerons when

the wheels are on the ground.  The early Kitfoxes had smaller rudders

and the factory went to bigger rudders rather than trying to educate all

of the various pilots of the advantages of proper aileron control when

the rudder does not do the job.

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

"I've been having a discussion off list with another Kolb flyer about control positioning while taxing"

************************

Wind forward of wingtips - stick into wind (tail dragger and tricycle Gear).



Wind aft of wingtips - forward stick away from wind (tail dragger).

Wind aft of wingtips - aft stick away from wind (tricycle gear).



It's intuitive and obvious with the wind forward of the wing tips.  Once it is aft of the wingtips, you need to picture the control surface positions - you'll see why then.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

At 02:18 AM 7/29/06 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Wind aft of wingtips - forward stick away from wind (tail dragger).

                               

Dave,
	




This is not good advice for a Kolb. Propeller air flow does not influence 

the horizontal stabilizer but the wind does.  You want to hold the tail 

down or stick back when taxiing downwind, especially in grass.  With a 

high thrust line, it is very easy to put the FireFly on its nose in grass 

with the wind coming from behind.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

What Jack says might be ok for grass but I wouldn't advise stick back with wind behind... elevators up... if it's blowing very hard.  That could get you on your nose on pavement, especially since Kolb's don't have a lot of weight on the tail wheel with front gear set back more than normal.  I always follow the normal stick positioning in wind with my FF and have never had a problem, but I haven't flown much from grass strips, so what Jack says might be valid for there, I don't know.

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is not good advice for a Kolb. Propeller air flow does not influence 

the horizontal stabilizer but the wind does. You want to hold the tail 

down or stick back when taxiing downwind, especially in grass. 	




Jack,



Think about where the elevator is with stick back - it's up.  With the wind behind, that will lift the tail (tail dragger), which is not what you want.  



I imagine it would take at least 20 knots of tail wind to lift the tail in this manner if the stick were full back.  We are probably "knit picking" the subject to death, since it would be pretty unusual to be taxiing a Kolb downwind in 20 + knots of wind.  I believe the aileron position is more important.  Letting the wind get under a wing and lift it is a real disaster.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

At 02:36 AM 7/30/06 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> This is not good advice for a Kolb. Propeller air flow does not influence 

> the horizontal stabilizer but the wind does. You want to hold the tail 

> down or stick back when taxiing downwind, especially in grass. 

Jack,

Think about where the elevator is with stick back - it's up.  With the wind behind, that will lift the tail (tail dragger), which is not what you want.  

I imagine it would take at least 20 knots of tail wind to lift the tail in this manner if the stick were full back.  We are probably "knit picking" the subject to death, since it would be pretty unusual to be taxiing a Kolb downwind in 20 + knots of wind.  I believe the aileron position is more important.  Letting the wind get under a wing and lift it is a real disaster.

--------

Dave Bigelow

Kamuela, Hawaii

FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI

Dave,

Think of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator as an air foil.  If the elevator is up, the air foil shape is flat across the top and curved on the bottom, just the opposite of the wing.  So if the wind comes from the front or rear it passes over the up elevator and the lift vector on the tail is going to be down.

At I22 it is not uncommon to taxi in winds of 20+ mph.  

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

jimh474(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:09 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Jack;

 I think you got your Ox in the Yoke a wee bit  backwards. If the elevator is up and the wind is coming from the rear, the wind  will lift the tail. If the wind is coming from the front, the wind will push the  tail down.

 Jim Hauck

On 7/30/2006 8:59:16 AM, kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) wrote:

[quote]  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 At 02:36 AM 7/30/06 -0700, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List  message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country(at)hotmail.com (up_country(at)hotmail.com)>

  >

 >

 >> This is not good advice for a Kolb. Propeller  air flow does not

 influence

 >> the horizontal stabilizer  but the wind does. You want to hold the tail

 >> down or  stick back when taxiing downwind, especially in grass.

 >

  >

 >Jack,

 >

 >Think about where the elevator  is with stick back - it's up.  With the wind behind, that will lift the  tail (tail dragger), which is not what you want.

 >

 >I  imagine it would take at least 20 knots of tail wind to lift the tail in this  manner if the stick were full back.  We are probably "knit picking" the  subject to death, since it would be pretty unusual to be taxiing a Kolb downwind  in 20 + knots of wind.  I believe the aileron position is more  important.  Letting the wind get under a wing and lift it is a real  disaster.

 >

 >--------

 >Dave Bigelow

  >Kamuela, Hawaii

 >FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI

 >

 Dave,

 Think of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator  as an air foil.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Well, I've got to say, I'm surprised by the responces to this informal poll. I didn't weigh in, except to state the difference of opinion between myself and the Kolber I was chatting with, so I'll put my 2 cents worth in.

 There is no difference in control positioning when taxiing a tricycle gear airplane or a taildragger, none.

Lift is about Newton's third law of motion and Bernoulli is just a fancy way of explaining how air that was forced up to go over the wing is then pulled downward from whence Newton takes over again.  

Holding the elevator up when going downwind IS a good way to end up ass over tea kettle. Wind hitting a raised elevator will be forced downward and the tail goes where? 

Now, as to keeping the stick forward while taxiing upwind, this is a Kolb (or any other pusher taildragger) exclusive. There's no prop out front to hit the ground. If I were in a Cub, say, I'd change my way of thinking, but I'm not. In the gusty prairie winds, I'd much rather fly the tail should it come up than try to get a stalled tail to exercise control over a rising wing. 

With the stick forward, I roll on throttle with my left hand, ease in right rudder to counter P factor and gyroscopic precession of the prop disk itself, and begin a smooth pull back on the stick as the tail rises. I don't have to practice my butter churning technique with the stick this way, every motion is in one direction. 

For those of you wondering how a MK III driver advances the throttle with his left hand, it's simple. PIC seating on mine is on the right.

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport.

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

So your saying....You really didn't want an "answer"....



 Just a reason to get up on the Soap Box.....



 Kinda like Fishing....Just threw out some bait.....



                     Gotta start building another plane,

                                                                      Mike in MN

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Ah, another great response from Baja Canada.



On 7/30/06, planecrazzzy <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com (planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" < planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com (planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com)>



So your saying....You really didn't want an "answer"....



 Just a reason to get up on the Soap Box.....



 Kinda like Fishing....Just threw out some bait.....

 

                     Gotta start building another plane,

                                                                      Mike in MN

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--------

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Do Not Archive

 

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Thanks  Jim,

    I was becoming confused...I learned to fly in a  J-3 and we were taught to keep the stick forward when taxiing downwind  and  back when taxiing into the wind....common sense tells me that will keep the tail  on the ground. sorry Jack to not agree with you...but friends we shall  be....

 Jim Swan   Michigan

 will soon be flying a firestar

  

 no not archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

At 08:08 AM 7/30/06 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Jack;   I think you got your Ox in

the Yoke a wee bit  backwards. If the

elevator is up and the wind is coming

from the rear, the wind  will lift the

tail. If the wind is coming from the

front, the wind will push the  tail

down.   Jim HauckOn 7/30/2006 8:59:16


	




Jim,



There is a very easy way to prove/disprove what I have written.



Take your plane out and face it down wind.  Chock the main gear.  Put a tie 

down stake in the ground next to the tail wheel spring.  Tie a rope to the 

tie down stake and to the tail wheel spring.  Leave about two feet of slack 

so the tail can come up off the ground.  Get in and crank and warm up the 

engine.  Hold the stick back against the stop.  Slowly advance the throttle 

and notice the rpm the tail starts to leave the ground.  Then repeat the 

process with the stick forward against the stop.  The position of the stick 

that requires the highest rpm to lift the tail is the most favorable for 

downwind taxiing. 



Also, since there seems to be some confusion about this, I modified my 

FireFly setup drawing with the elevator in the up position.   It shows the 

FireFly on the ground in the taxiing position and it can be seen at:



http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/elevup.jpg



If the wind flow is horizontal to the ground, it does not matter if the wind 

is up or down wind as it passes over the horizontal stabilizer and elevator 

assembly.  In both cases the air must travel further to pass below the 

assembly than the air that passes above it.  This will place down load on 

the tail.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

I just stated the facts  WITHOUT calling anybody "names"



    Thanks for the reply...



 So what the hell is Baja Canada.....Never mind, I don't care....



          Gotta Fly...

                          Mike in MN

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[quote="jindoguy(at)gmail.com"]Ah, another great response from Baja Canada.



On 7/30/06, planecrazzzy <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com (planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" < planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com (planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com)>



So your saying....You really didn't want an "answer"....



 Just a reason to get up on the Soap Box.....



 Kinda like Fishing....Just threw out some bait.....

 

???????????????????? Gotta start building another plane,

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Mike in MN

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--------

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Do Not Archive

 

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Baja (Lower) Canada ??  I dunno........must be close to Upper Michigan.   

Lar.                  Do not Archive.



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

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