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What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

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barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:42 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Hi Area 51,



I see you mention a 915, I'm wondering if you have any data on a 915 in 

a Europa, I would love to hear about it, as I am at engine decision 

point and have assumed it would be too heavy up front to stay within W&B 

and safe operating loads.



Cheers,

Brian Phillips.



On 9/11/2022 1:38 pm, Area-51 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Very exciting and intense sessions at the design table all week... finished off modelling the instrument panel and interior cabin environment; adding takeoffs for fixings and control lever slots... the sticks and pedals are in along with the spaceframe... next up are the doors... the Rotax 912, 914, and 915 are all sitting there waiting to be popped in when the time comes... will move onto the rear section shortly to add the control surface mechanicals... its hours and hours of arduous and rewarding work.... learning a lot about the aircraft through the process.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508544#508544





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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:36 am Post subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

No flight data available on a 915 in a europa; this is all work undertaken in a 3D modelling environment... a limitless sandpit.



W&B is just that. More weight up front means more required in the rear; very simple equation. AUW increase and higher stall speeds will be the major result plus added stress/strain load factors upon the factory space frame. 



Flight characteristics would be no different than adding 30kg loading to a standard europa; except the extra torque of the engine will improve acceleration and energy to overcome total drag...



You never get the above without more BTU's going in; that's a fairly fixed formula.



The Europa is a very low drag airframe; its pretty much as good as it will ever get straight out of the box. 



More torque at the propeller is pretty much the only improvement available to increase its performance.

barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:14 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Thanks Pete, you are right, a 915 with an Airmaster using published     figures comes in at 217 Lbs, so the 220lbs+ would be the real FWF     weight, along with the longer arm. I checked with Europa, they said     they were unaware of any installed 915's and were unable to confirm     it could be done. I would love the extra horsepower but just don't     want to be a test pilot : )

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips. 

     

     On 9/11/2022 10:09 pm, Pete Zut wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                         The 915iS has just gotta be too heavy, and being longer           making it even worse. I heard 220lbs+Â Â  with intercooler etc.,           plus a heavy airmaster?

         

         cheers,

         

         PeteZ

         

       

       

                On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 1:49 AM           Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>           wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  -->           Europa-List message posted by: Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>

           

           Hi Area 51,

           

           I see you mention a 915, I'm wondering if you have any data on           a 915 in 

           a Europa, I would love to hear about it, as I am at engine           decision 

           point and have assumed it would be too heavy up front to stay           within W&B 

           and safe operating loads.

           

           Cheers,

           Brian Phillips.

           

           On 9/11/2022 1:38 pm, Area-51 wrote:

           > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>

           >

           > Very exciting and intense sessions at the design table           all week... finished off modelling the instrument panel and           interior cabin environment; adding takeoffs for fixings and           control lever slots... the sticks and pedals are in along with           the spaceframe... next up are the doors... the Rotax 912, 914,           and 915 are all sitting there waiting to be popped in when the           time comes... will move onto the rear section shortly to add           the control surface mechanicals... its hours and hours of           arduous and rewarding work.... learning a lot about the           aircraft through the process.

           >

           >

           >

           >

           > Read this topic online here:

           >

           > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508544#508544

           >

           >

           >

           >

           > Attachments:

           >

           > http://forums.matronics.com//files/a6834e31_4b2a_4ca7_b8e0_a0238a65a4cd_200.jpeg

           >

           >

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:35 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast: 

Weight is the enemy of an airplane.  Especially the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.  If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is going to be somewhere around the spinner.  Now we move the battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going up.  The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward.  The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range.  The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.  The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.  The mono is faster and lighter of course.    

  

As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.  Customers moved the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel.  The only advantage was more power with less reliability.  Fuel burn was basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.  So, what did I gain?  Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.  BTU requirements are the same for the same amount of power at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.  Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally aspirated engine with no leaning.  The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.  So, an after market leaning system is necessary for the  high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.  The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as we all know,  there are techniques and inspections required to keep it running like new. 

  

Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb maintenance/oil changes.  Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore.  The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.  Prop strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono. 

I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.  Repeat at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.  The cleanup of the valves restores compression to like new or better than new and is really a surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation. 

  

I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States  some years ago.  They do put out more power.  But for how long?  Over the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last.  Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours.  But we have many cowboys here in the States that just want more power but won't pay for it to get power and reliability.  I was around for the first of these Big Bore mods.  As Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade".  This costs money.  My hats off to them, as they have at least backed their engines.  In their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States are running regular car fuel.  This causes detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid! 

  

If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements,  require greater cooling mass, and of course add cost.  An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.  If you change one thing, you affect 20 others.  Choose wisely.   

  

Example:  Charts are scare still for the 915. 

5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.   

A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.   

However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.   

  

The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.  The mono is much better at still basically a square root curve.  More horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency or speed. 

  

The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.  I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max speed.  Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.  The 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is our human physiological limit without cabin  pressurization).  We know how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.  I donâ€™t have Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.  Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is easy to follow.  Always follow the engine installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall forward manual . 

  

The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.  Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.  The 915 is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to tell you what itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.  Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes through its teething issues.  It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an extended taxi out.  Automatic systems means you the pilot lose control.  Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy only comes through lower power.  They have found fuel burn is the same for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS.  The 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements.  It is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.  It is still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods.  Today it all works flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and components taking up more space under the hood.  The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrically either.  Look at Sling and their learning curve.   The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.  The two place not so much.  Guys are looking hard at the difference. 

  

In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light weight.  It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.  More weight makes the induced drag go up.   The mono airframe was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.  If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.  In the States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need that range also.  Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer day.   More horsepower is not as important as more torque.  Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster. 

  

Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with stock components.  Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down.  Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small airframe.   

  

Just my thoughtsâ€¦. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

--

lantieau

Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

These are great insights, thanks for providing details.  It does seem there are significant advantages to the 914 vs a 912S.  The focus always seems to be on maximizing speed at the cost of range. 



If you're flying at high altitude with a 914 with a decent tailwind, does it make sense to pull the power to a low cruise setting to save fuel while keeping a reasonable speed?  You mention that we should expect 25 ANMPG with a 914.  What does that number look like at a reduced power setting at altitude?



My thinking is that a low power cruise would allow to sacrifice some speed in exchange for more time aloft, in the end, increasing range and ANMPG.  With a 914, what is the optimal power setting/altitude to mazimize fuel economy/range assuming wind is not a factor?

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:56 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Pete, 

Another nit is if you fly the 912S Europa at the best range speed which is about 108 Kts according to my drag tests or a bit slower  if flying lower altitude the Bing at 2500 MSL going about 113 KTAS or about 108 IAS you would swear you are making gas.  

  

My memory is failing Iâ€™m afraid and I canâ€™t find the 912S flight test data any longer in my files.  It is somewhere.  At 10,000 Ft, 12AY will fly with only 25-30 HP. At 94 KTAS it is painfully slow but the gas milage is great. Unfortunately, with the 912S aircraft I have helped build, I fly near WOT with a constant  speed prop lugging the engine down at about 4800 RPM and 24.5 inches for best cruise ANMPG according to the fuel flow/TAS  data from the EFIS.  If I recall it is almost 120 KTAS at about 4.7 GPH or about 26.6 ANMPG and that burns a bit more gas unfortunately as I am impatient and want speed and reasonable range, if I go to 5000 RPM and near full throttle at 7500MSL it will do about 25NMPG and  126 knots which I have the patience for..   The Hac Man leaning device makes it better yet.   So, I fly mostly above max range.  Unfortunately, most of the 912S equipped Europaâ€™s are trigear and heavy that we built.  1000 pounds empty.  Built for comfort not speed Iâ€™m afraid.  These new EFIS allow you to get instant data rather than laborious data taking.   

  

Creighton Smith has a 912 Mono Classic and he runs about 5000 and about 24 inches and that 912 80HP plane makes gas.  With the Hac Man leaning device he gets excellent range and the plane definitely needs a relief tube. 

Enough airplane stuff, time to get ready for a another presentation this weekend. 

  

Here is a chart I did on my Trigear while drag testing:   

  

Bud 

  

                     <![endif]--><![if !vml]>        [img]cid:image002.png(at)01D8F53E.5AFC6EE0[/img]    <![endif]><![endif]-->  

  

  

  

  

  

 

  

  

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budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

It always makes sense to do that.  In the max range computations from Aero it looks like this: 

Shown in green is a tailwind, red is no wind, and pink is a headwind.  For a small plane it isn’t much of a speed difference but max range is rarely flown either in a light plane. 

No experimental manufacturer makes charts for best range, cruise, headwind, tailwind or altitude.   You have to do that yourself. 

  

                     <![endif]--><![if !vml]>        [img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01D8F542.E382DAC0[/img]    <![endif]><![endif]-->  

Look at the charts from the manufacturer.  You can see the HP vs FF at different power settings.  If you pull the power back to say 4800/28 inches slows the plane fuel burn and gets you closer to your max range.  Then at various altitudes and power setting within the limits in the charts. 

                Alt          RPM      MP         FF           IAS         TAS        ANMPG  

                10000    5500       35           6.9          122         145         21.0 

                                5200       32           6              120         140         23.3 

                                5000       31           5.6          116         138         24.6 

                                4800       28           4.6          106         128         27.8 

As you can see, less speed, less drag (until L/D max) which means power is less as is fuel flow and range increases until that tangent  point above.  Even with this prop (it was not an impressive prop) it clearly shows it takes about 50 HP to do 48/28, but to go down to 4500/28 the engine sounds like it is lugging but fuel flow is now 4 GPH and the speed  is down to about 110 KTAS and the ANMPG starts to go up.  Now you know you have about your proper power setting for max range.  You also have to think about the engine.   Lugging down the engine is not good, neither is running the oil and cht temps too low in the quest for max range.  The unfortunate thing in most engines is we can’t control our  boost, we only control the throttle plate and the TCU controls the wastegate.  The Bing controls the fuel flow   and eventually you hit operational limits.  The 912iS and 915 attempted to make the engine more efficient and it gets the fuel flow and power lower than a normal 914 but you must use care with the RPM or prop control.  Pull the RPM down too low and you can still lug the engine and perhaps even detonate it as the “I” engines don’t have an antiknock sensor. 

  

You’ve got to know your limitations I guess. 

  

Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

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barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:05 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much     appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.Â  

     

     You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the     retrofit work, along with theÂ  weight issues, its just not worth it,     and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is,     & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments     below about some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking     again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no     detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge     performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a     fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s     are working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited     operational history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As     you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation. 

     

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips. 

     

     On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
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Pete, as you are most                 aware and Brian you are learning fast:         

Weight is the enemy of                 an airplane.Â  Especially                 the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.Â  If I add 15                 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop                 extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is going to                 be somewhere around the spinner.Â  Now we move the                 battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much more                 to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc.                 to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going                 up. Â The Europa                 XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa                 Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall                 forward.Â  The 912                 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30                 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at                 altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the                 120-130 knot range.Â  The                 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.Â  The 914 doubles the                 climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at                 the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear                 aircraft of course.Â  The                 mono is faster and lighter of course.Â            

Â          

As I learned on                 modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Â  Customers moved the                 boost up to get more power but complained it burned more                 fuel.Â  The only                 advantage was more power with less reliability.Â  Fuel burn was                 basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.Â  So, what did I                 gain?Â  Slightly                 more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a                 bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.Â  BTU requirements                 are the same for the                     same amount of power at the same fuel air                 ratio and varies little with displacement.Â  Aircraft engines                 run at constant RPMs like a marine                   engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel                 injection except for altitude performance of a normally                 aspirated engine with no leaning.Â  The Bing stops                 leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated                 engine.Â  So, an                 after market leaning system is necessary for the  high altitude flyers to improve                 fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.Â  The Rotax 914 is                 ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal                 for the Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914                 totally transformed the Europa into a great airplane.                 Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as                 we all know, there are techniques and inspections                 required to keep it running like new.         

Â          

Normally a 912 through                 the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb                 maintenance/oil changes.Â                  Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore.Â  The valves can and                 do contact the piston if oversped.Â  Prop strikes are                 ignored also by many STOL operators and                 taildragger/mono.         

I do a top overhaul at                 about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves,                 inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Â  Repeat at 1000                 hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.Â  The cleanup of the                 valves restores compression to like new or better than                 new and is really a surprise when a                   914 burps after only about 5 blades of                 rotation.         

Â          

I have no experience                 with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do with                 the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States                 some years ago.Â  They                 do put out more power.Â  But                 for how long?Â  Over                 the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the                 new blocks) last and last.Â                  Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short                 as 200 hours.Â  But                 we have many cowboys here in the States that just want                 more power but won't pay for it to get power and                   reliability.Â  I                 was around for the first of these Big Bore mods.Â  As Edge Performance                 has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally                 robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and                 required "upgrade".Â  This                 costs money.Â  My                 hats off to them, as they have at least backed their                 engines.Â  In                 their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States                 are running regular car fuel. Â This causes                 detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!         

Â          

If you need more power                 keep in mind in general you will need more gas, gain                 weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection                 requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of                 course add cost.Â  An                 airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close                 formation.Â  If                 you change one thing, you affect 20 others.Â  Choose wisely.Â           

Â          

Example:Â  Charts are scare                 still for the 915.         

5000 RPM wide open                 throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 914                 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.Â           

A 20 HP increase on                 N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of nearly                 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.Â           

However, the range in                 Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it                 decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.Â           

Â          

The Europa drag goes                 up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.Â  The mono is much                 better at still basically a square root curve.Â  More horsepower                 doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency or speed.         

Â          

The 914 fits easily in                 the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed prop                 without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel                 burn and will get you to                 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.Â  I can put out 70 to                 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145                 for a trigear) or max speed.Â  Both the 912S/iS                 and Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so                 no advantage.Â  The                 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density                 altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise                 to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling                 (which is well above 25,000 which is our human                 physiological limit without cabin pressurization).Â  We know how to                 maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup,                 troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop                 running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.Â  I donâ€™t have                 Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.Â  Carbs are easy to                 balance, and the installation manual is easy to follow.Â  Always follow the                 engine installation manual in conjunction with the                 airframe firewall forward manual .         

Â          

The 915 was never                 designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does                 not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Â  Extensive work is                 necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.Â  The 915 is                 unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a                 â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to tell you what                 itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting manual is a bit                 sparce.Â  Much                 study and patience is needed                 as the 915 goes through its teething issues.Â  It runs lean on the                 ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an                 extended taxi out.Â  Automatic                 systems means you the pilot                 lose control.Â  Many                 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy                 only comes through lower power.Â  They have found                 fuel burn is the same for the same speed after an engine                 change from the S to the iS.Â  The 915 has a                 similar issue with the power requirements.Â  It is not like                 hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.Â  It is still like                 the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods.Â  Today it all works                 flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling                 requirements and components taking up more space under                 the hood.Â  The                 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrically                 either.Â  Look at                 Sling and their learning curve.Â   The 4 place needs                 140-150 HP.Â  The                 two place not so much.Â  Guys                 are looking hard at the difference.         

Â          

In summary, the Europa                 was designed for about 100HP engines of light weight.Â  It is fast and                 efficient for a 100HP 500 pound                 payload airplane.Â  More                 weight makes the induced drag go up.Â   The mono airframe                 was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at                 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.Â  If you go above 900                 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed                 drops and range is decreased.Â  In the States, a                 1000 mile per day range airplane is essential for                 getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to                 Florida for the winter, they need that range also.Â  Frankly, a bigger                 engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a                 longer day.Â  Â More horsepower is                 not as important as more torque.Â  Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up                 faster.         

Â          

Keep it light, keep it                 simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with stock                 components.Â  Work                 on drag reduction and keeping the weight down.Â  Not by slapping                 more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very                 small airframe.Â           

Â          

Just my thoughtsâ€¦.         

Â          

Best Regards,         

Bud Yerly         

Â          

-----Original                 Message-----

                 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 On Behalf Of Pete

                 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM

                 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with your                 Europa this week - 08/11/22         

Â          

--> Europa-List                 message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>         

Â          

â€¦.except for the                 concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and single                 point of failure (FI).         

Cheers,         

PeteZ         

Â          

Â          

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 10, 2022,                 at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                 wrote:         

          

 ï»¿-->                 Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>         

          

 Brian the Edge                 Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass                 is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally                 be showing reliability but i would still choose Edge                 over Jabiru         

          

          

          

          

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:30 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s principal over the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.

Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering basics).

Difficult to watch.

Cheers,

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿                   Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much     appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.  

     

     You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the     retrofit work, along with the  weight issues, its just not worth it,     and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is,     & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments     below about some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking     again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no     detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge     performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a     fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s     are working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited     operational history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As     you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation. 

     

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips. 

     

     On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                                                 <![endif]-->  Clean Clean      false false false  EN-US X-NONE X-NONE                         <![endif]-->                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           <![endif]-->       (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: rgb(5, 99, 193); text-decoration: underline; } a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; } p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } span.PlainTextChar { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } span.GramE { } .MsoChpDefault { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]-->  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Pete, as you are most                 aware and Brian you are learning fast:         

Weight is the enemy of                 an airplane.  Especially                 the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.  If I add 15                 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop                 extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is going to                 be somewhere around the spinner.  Now we move the                 battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much more                 to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc.                 to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going                 up.  The Europa                 XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa                 Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall                 forward.  The 912                 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30                 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at                 altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the                 120-130 knot range.  The                 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.  The 914 doubles the                 climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at                 the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear                 aircraft of course.  The                 mono is faster and lighter of course.            

          

As I learned on                 modifying the 914 to fuel injection.  Customers moved the                 boost up to get more power but complained it burned more                 fuel.  The only                 advantage was more power with less reliability.  Fuel burn was                 basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.  So, what did I                 gain?  Slightly                 more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a                 bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.  BTU requirements                 are the same for the                     same amount of power at the same fuel air                 ratio and varies little with displacement.  Aircraft engines                 run at constant RPMs like a marine                   engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel                 injection except for altitude performance of a normally                 aspirated engine with no leaning.  The Bing stops                 leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated                 engine.  So, an                 after market leaning system is necessary for the  high altitude flyers to improve                 fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.  The Rotax 914 is                 ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal                 for the Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914                 totally transformed the Europa into a great airplane.                 Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as                 we all know, there are techniques and inspections                 required to keep it running like new.         

          

Normally a 912 through                 the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb                 maintenance/oil changes.                  Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore.  The valves can and                 do contact the piston if oversped.  Prop strikes are                 ignored also by many STOL operators and                 taildragger/mono.         

I do a top overhaul at                 about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves,                 inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.  Repeat at 1000                 hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.  The cleanup of the                 valves restores compression to like new or better than                 new and is really a surprise when a                   914 burps after only about 5 blades of                 rotation.         

          

I have no experience                 with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do with                 the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States                 some years ago.  They                 do put out more power.  But                 for how long?  Over                 the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the                 new blocks) last and last.                  Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short                 as 200 hours.  But                 we have many cowboys here in the States that just want                 more power but won't pay for it to get power and                   reliability.  I                 was around for the first of these Big Bore mods.  As Edge Performance                 has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally                 robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and                 required "upgrade".  This                 costs money.  My                 hats off to them, as they have at least backed their                 engines.  In                 their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States                 are running regular car fuel.  This causes                 detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!         

          

If you need more power                 keep in mind in general you will need more gas, gain                 weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection                 requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of                 course add cost.  An                 airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close                 formation.  If                 you change one thing, you affect 20 others.  Choose wisely.           

          

Example:  Charts are scare                 still for the 915.         

5000 RPM wide open                 throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 914                 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.           

A 20 HP increase on                 N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of nearly                 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.           

However, the range in                 Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it                 decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.           

          

The Europa drag goes                 up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.  The mono is much                 better at still basically a square root curve.  More horsepower                 doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency or speed.         

          

The 914 fits easily in                 the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed prop                 without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel                 burn and will get you to                 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.  I can put out 70 to                 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145                 for a trigear) or max speed.  Both the 912S/iS                 and Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so                 no advantage.  The                 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density                 altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise                 to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling                 (which is well above 25,000 which is our human                 physiological limit without cabin pressurization).  We know how to                 maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup,                 troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop                 running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.  I donâ€™t have                 Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.  Carbs are easy to                 balance, and the installation manual is easy to follow.  Always follow the                 engine installation manual in conjunction with the                 airframe firewall forward manual .         

          

The 915 was never                 designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does                 not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.  Extensive work is                 necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.  The 915 is                 unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a                 â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to tell you what                 itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting manual is a bit                 sparce.  Much                 study and patience is needed                 as the 915 goes through its teething issues.  It runs lean on the                 ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an                 extended taxi out.  Automatic                 systems means you the pilot                 lose control.  Many                 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy                 only comes through lower power.  They have found                 fuel burn is the same for the same speed after an engine                 change from the S to the iS.  The 915 has a                 similar issue with the power requirements.  It is not like                 hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.  It is still like                 the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods.  Today it all works                 flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling                 requirements and components taking up more space under                 the hood.  The                 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrically                 either.  Look at                 Sling and their learning curve.   The 4 place needs                 140-150 HP.  The                 two place not so much.  Guys                 are looking hard at the difference.         

          

In summary, the Europa                 was designed for about 100HP engines of light weight.  It is fast and                 efficient for a 100HP 500 pound                 payload airplane.  More                 weight makes the induced drag go up.   The mono airframe                 was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at                 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.  If you go above 900                 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed                 drops and range is decreased.  In the States, a                 1000 mile per day range airplane is essential for                 getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to                 Florida for the winter, they need that range also.  Frankly, a bigger                 engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a                 longer day.   More horsepower is                 not as important as more torque.  Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up                 faster.         

          

Keep it light, keep it                 simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with stock                 components.  Work                 on drag reduction and keeping the weight down.  Not by slapping                 more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very                 small airframe.           

          

Just my thoughtsâ€¦.         

          

Best Regards,         

Bud Yerly         

          

-----Original                 Message-----

                 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 On Behalf Of Pete

                 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM

                 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with your                 Europa this week - 08/11/22         

          

--> Europa-List                 message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>         

          

â€¦.except for the                 concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and single                 point of failure (FI).         

Cheers,         

PeteZ         

          

          

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 10, 2022,                 at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                 wrote:         

          

 ï»¿-->                 Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>         

          

 Brian the Edge                 Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass                 is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally                 be showing reliability but i would still choose Edge                 over Jabiru         

          

          

          

          

 Read this topic                 online here:         

          

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:41 am Post subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Old school is always going to rule; nothing beats a pencil and a sheet of paper or cardboard; battery has never gone flat!!



Logging on 181 with an 80hp 912 shows that it requires the same amount of fuel to fly the same distance at the same altitude in the same conditions at either 80 or 105 KIAS at 4100 or 5100 rpm respectfully. The hourly burn rate is different, so Duration is affected but Range is not.



80 KIAS at 1500 AMSL requires 8L/hr, 105 KIAS (at) 1500 AMSL requires 12L/hr... Loitering at 70 KIAS requires 6L/hr and a steady cruise at 95 KIAS at 4800rpm requires 10L/hr.



This is 181's fuel flow computer; it is a pencil on paper, a map,  a wrist watch, and a sight glass with markings at every 5L. Batteries have still never run flat.



The 914 is a great setup. It is an altitude compensator arrangement, not a racing car setup. It maintains 3lb of manifold pressure above 3600rpm regardless of AMSL, and that's it; any higher and the standard Rotax core starts to suffer.



The Edge Performance units use higher boost pressure and the uprated turbo assembly spool up at lower RPM. The cylinder bolts are uprated. The crankshaft is welded and rebalanced. The fuel pumps are upgraded. Its not an adhoc offering by any means.



10.5:1 is a fantastic CR; easiest bankable and safe power improvement any day of the week.... the tradeoff is going to be the gearbox on the 912 at lower rpm ranges; from a design perspective it has many shortcomings, but it gets the job done... Detonation is affected by the operator not the compression ratio. 12:1 CR would be a cause for concern in an aircraft but not 10.5:1... 8:1 is a pretty good fool proof place for a producer to enter the playing field at. 6.5:1 is throwing 50% of your fuel out the tail pipe, but you'll never get detonation unless you put some diesel in the tank. The 912 has two mounting point on the block for a knock sensor, no idea why Rotax did not fit them.



At the end of it all, if you want more power you will burn more liquified tree stumps per hour and more Liquidity!!



HP is a meaningless number; always look at the Torque against RPM and go from there. And there is no substitute for Engine Volumetric Capacity, period. This is the practicality of forced induction. If we wanted to double the output power on our 80hp 912 we would just run it at 2 ATM (29psi) boost; and it would consume twice the fuel.



181's 80hp does just fine. At 425kg AUW it hauls into the air of the grass in around 200m and up into the sky at 80 KIAS and 1600fpm. Two up will see 800fpm... Its no Lancair, but its proving a great allrounder.

barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:13 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated     hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit     does not need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as     the 914 with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may     even reduce crank stresses. 

     

     I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to     remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I     believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to     A/C engines, and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not     sure if this applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my     road car, 200K miles, no problems, great engine.Â  

     

     William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used     a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually     add a bit more boost in? 

     

     Cheers,

     

     Brian Phillips. Â  Â  

     

     On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s principal over         the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many         good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which he         will not acknowledge, and lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€.         And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few         accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.

       

       

       Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even         lacks the engineering basics).

       

       

       Difficult to watch.

       

       

       Cheers,

       PeteZ

       

          	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian           Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)           wrote:

           

                  ï»¿                      Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below,           much appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to           amaze me.Â  

           

           You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all           the retrofit work, along with theÂ  weight issues, its just not           worth it, and I would never finish it. I am still interested           in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big           bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US based big           bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a           little high, combined with no detonation detection feedback           loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge performance don't play with           the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure reg that           increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder,           again an added risk. Add to that limited operational history,           makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000           compromises flying in close formation. 

           

           Cheers,

           Brian Phillips. 

           

           On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
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Pete, as you are                       most aware and Brian you are learning fast:               

Weight is the                       enemy of an airplane.Â  Especially                       the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.Â  If I add 15                       horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires                       a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG                       is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Â  Now we move                       the battery back, run longer heavier cables and as                       much more to the rear as possible such as                       autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.                       The weight just keeps going up. Â The Europa XS                       is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa                       Classic even with the XS fuselage module and                       firewall forward.Â                        The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular                       performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude                       or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about                       10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range.Â  The 912S                       raised the cruise about 5 knots more.Â  The 914                       doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least                       140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the                       912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.Â  The mono is                       faster and lighter of course.Â                  

Â                

As I learned on                       modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Â  Customers                       moved the boost up to get more power but                       complained it burned more fuel.Â  The only                       advantage was more power with less reliability.Â  Fuel burn was                       basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.Â  So, what did                       I gain?Â  Slightly                       more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a                       bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to                       cool.Â  BTU                       requirements are the same for the same amount                           of power at the same fuel air ratio                       and varies little with displacement.Â  Aircraft                       engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb                       is just as good as fuel injection except for                       altitude performance of a normally aspirated                       engine with no leaning.Â  The Bing                       stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the                       normally aspirated engine.Â  So, an after                       market leaning system is necessary for the  high altitude flyers to                       improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.Â  The Rotax 914                       is ideal for higher altitude operations and                       frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher cost.                       I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa                       into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is                       now as good as the 912S but as we all know, there                       are techniques and inspections required to keep it                       running like new.               

Â                

Normally a 912                       through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb                       maintenance/oil changes.Â  Overspeed of                       the engine is an issue many ignore.Â  The valves                       can and do contact the piston if oversped.Â  Prop strikes                       are ignored also by many STOL operators and                       taildragger/mono.               

I do a top                       overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up                       the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press                       on.Â  Repeat                       at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500                       hours.Â  The                       cleanup of the valves restores compression to like                       new or better than new and is really a surprise                       when a 914 burps after                       only about 5 blades of rotation.               

Â                

I have no                       experience with the latest Edge Performance                       engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore"                       engines done here in the States some years ago.Â  They do put                       out more power.Â  But                       for how long?Â  Over                       the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially                       the new blocks) last and last.Â  Most of the                       Big Bores were back in after as short as 200                       hours.Â  But                       we have many cowboys here in the States that just                       want more power but won't pay for it to get power                       and reliability.Â  I was around                       for the first of these Big Bore mods.Â  As Edge                       Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and                       many other formally robust Rotax parts are now                       under more stress and required "upgrade".Â  This costs                       money.Â  My                       hats off to them, as they have at least backed                       their engines.Â  In                       their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the                       States are running regular car fuel. Â This causes                       detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!               

Â                

If you need more                       power keep in mind in general you will need more                       gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase                       inspection requirements, require greater cooling                       mass, and of course add cost.Â  An airplane                       is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.Â  If you change                       one thing, you affect 20 others.Â  Choose                       wisely.Â                 

Â                

Example:Â  Charts are                       scare still for the 915.               

5000 RPM wide                       open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more                       than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow                       27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.Â                                       

A 20 HP increase                       on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase                       of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is                       better than most.Â                                       

However, the                       range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not                       increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20                       ANMPG.Â                 

Â                

The Europa drag                       goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the                       trigear.Â  The                       mono is much better at still basically a square                       root curve.Â  More                       horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency                       or speed.               

Â                

The 914 fits                       easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a                       constant speed prop without issue or added                       extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to                       10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise                       climb.Â  I                       can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for                       cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max                       speed.Â  Both                       the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane                       fuel as the 914 so no advantage.Â  The 914 turbo                       takes care of most of the issues with density                       altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from                       cruise to max continuous from the surface to                       service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which                       is our human physiological limit without cabin                       pressurization).Â  We                       know how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified                       and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data                       dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10                       without a special dongle.Â  I donâ€™t have                       Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.Â  Carbs are                       easy to balance, and the installation manual is                       easy to follow.Â  Always                       follow the engine installation manual in                       conjunction with the airframe firewall forward                       manual .               

Â                

The 915 was                       never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine                       mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft                       firewall forwards.Â                        Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the                       915 to a 912/914 airframe.Â  The 915 is                       unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change                       without a â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to                       tell you what itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting                       manual is a bit sparce.Â  Much study                       and patience is needed                       as the 915 goes through its teething issues.Â  It runs lean                       on the ground like the 912iS and will overheat                       easily during an extended taxi out.Â  Automatic                       systems means you the                       pilot lose control.Â                        Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off                       and find economy only comes through lower power.Â  They have                       found fuel burn is the same for the same speed                       after an engine change from the S to the iS.Â  The 915 has a                       similar issue with the power requirements.Â  It is not                       like hopping into your BMW tubo and everything                       works.Â  It                       is still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection                       and turbo mods.Â  Today                       it all works flawlessly in our autos, but with                       larger cooling requirements and components taking                       up more space under the hood.Â  The 915 is                       not quite a plug and play engine electrically                       either.Â  Look                       at Sling and their learning curve.Â   The 4 place                       needs 140-150 HP.Â                        The two place not so much.Â  Guys are                       looking hard at the difference.               

Â                

In summary, the                       Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of                       light weight.Â  It                       is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.Â  More weight                       makes the induced drag go up.Â   The mono                       airframe was not designed to go faster than about                       170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900                       pounds.Â  If                       you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane                       gets sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.Â  In the                       States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is                       essential for getting around west of the                       Mississippi river. For my snow                         birds coming from Canada to Florida for                       the winter, they need that range also.Â  Frankly, a                       bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less                       payload, and a longer day.Â  Â More horsepower                       is not as important as more torque.Â  Torque turns                       the prop, HP just                       makes it spin up faster.               

Â                

Keep it light,                       keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free                       steed with stock components.Â  Work on drag                       reduction and keeping the weight down.Â  Not by                       slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and                       cost on a very small airframe.Â                 

Â                

Just my                       thoughtsâ€¦.               

Â                

Best Regards,               

Bud Yerly               

Â                

-----Original                       Message-----

                       From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                       <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                       On Behalf Of Pete

                       Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM

                       To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                       Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with                       your Europa this week - 08/11/22               

Â                

-->                       Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>               

Â                

â€¦.except for the                       concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and                       single point of failure (FI).               

Cheers,               

PeteZ               

Â                

Â                

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 10,                       2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                       wrote:               

                

 ï»¿-->                       Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>               

                

 Brian the                       Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if                       forward mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru                       is said to finally be showing reliability but i                       would still choose Edge over Jabiru               

                

                

                

                

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Agree with Pete regarding accumulated hours v's reliability; only time in the sky will definitively answer that one.



What about UL Power? Has anybody user feedback on these? They seem like everything a Jabiru is trying to be???

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:06 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Re viking,  direct injection with a single pump, ugh. Driven be a custom single ECU (what could go wrong?), duty cycle (oiling clearances etc) risks as you mentioned, & Heavy as heck. Shadetree gearbox with simple and i submit insufficient rubber coupling for resonances. Jan throws garbage on the market and lets the customers teeth out the deficiencies. Heâ€™s no engineer, but a legacy vw mechanic by training. More than a few power unit failures now (with deaths) as they are starting to get airborn.

Re 912s piston kits: would luv to see reliabilty data. Keep hearing bad things. Compression still stock?

Cheers,

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 11:21 PM, Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿                   Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated     hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit     does not need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as     the 914 with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may     even reduce crank stresses. 

     

     I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to     remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I     believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to     A/C engines, and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not     sure if this applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my     road car, 200K miles, no problems, great engine.  

     

     William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used     a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually     add a bit more boost in? 

     

     Cheers,

     

     Brian Phillips.     

     

     On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s principal over         the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many         good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which he         will not acknowledge, and lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€.         And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few         accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.

       

       

       Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even         lacks the engineering basics).

       

       

       Difficult to watch.

       

       

       Cheers,

       PeteZ

       

          	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian           Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)           wrote:

           

                  ï»¿                      Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below,           much appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to           amaze me.  

           

           You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all           the retrofit work, along with the  weight issues, its just not           worth it, and I would never finish it. I am still interested           in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big           bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US based big           bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a           little high, combined with no detonation detection feedback           loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge performance don't play with           the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure reg that           increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder,           again an added risk. Add to that limited operational history,           makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000           compromises flying in close formation. 

           

           Cheers,

           Brian Phillips. 

           

           On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		                                                                                     <![endif]-->  Clean Clean      false false false  EN-US X-NONE X-NONE                         <![endif]-->                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           <![endif]-->             (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: rgb(5, 99, 193); text-decoration: underline; } a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; } p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } span.PlainTextChar { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } span.GramE { } .MsoChpDefault { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]-->  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                            

Pete, as you are                       most aware and Brian you are learning fast:               

Weight is the                       enemy of an airplane.  Especially                       the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.  If I add 15                       horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires                       a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG                       is going to be somewhere around the spinner.  Now we move                       the battery back, run longer heavier cables and as                       much more to the rear as possible such as                       autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.                       The weight just keeps going up.  The Europa XS                       is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa                       Classic even with the XS fuselage module and                       firewall forward.                        The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular                       performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude                       or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about                       10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range.  The 912S                       raised the cruise about 5 knots more.  The 914                       doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least                       140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the                       912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.  The mono is                       faster and lighter of course.                  

                

As I learned on                       modifying the 914 to fuel injection.  Customers                       moved the boost up to get more power but                       complained it burned more fuel.  The only                       advantage was more power with less reliability.  Fuel burn was                       basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.  So, what did                       I gain?  Slightly                       more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a                       bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to                       cool.  BTU                       requirements are the same for the same amount                           of power at the same fuel air ratio                       and varies little with displacement.  Aircraft                       engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb                       is just as good as fuel injection except for                       altitude performance of a normally aspirated                       engine with no leaning.  The Bing                       stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the                       normally aspirated engine.  So, an after                       market leaning system is necessary for the  high altitude flyers to                       improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.  The Rotax 914                       is ideal for higher altitude operations and                       frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher cost.                       I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa                       into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is                       now as good as the 912S but as we all know, there                       are techniques and inspections required to keep it                       running like new.               

                

Normally a 912                       through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb                       maintenance/oil changes.  Overspeed of                       the engine is an issue many ignore.  The valves                       can and do contact the piston if oversped.  Prop strikes                       are ignored also by many STOL operators and                       taildragger/mono.               

I do a top                       overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up                       the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press                       on.  Repeat                       at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500                       hours.  The                       cleanup of the valves restores compression to like                       new or better than new and is really a surprise                       when a 914 burps after                       only about 5 blades of rotation.               

                

I have no                       experience with the latest Edge Performance                       engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore"                       engines done here in the States some years ago.  They do put                       out more power.  But                       for how long?  Over                       the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially                       the new blocks) last and last.  Most of the                       Big Bores were back in after as short as 200                       hours.  But                       we have many cowboys here in the States that just                       want more power but won't pay for it to get power                       and reliability.  I was around                       for the first of these Big Bore mods.  As Edge                       Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and                       many other formally robust Rotax parts are now                       under more stress and required "upgrade".  This costs                       money.  My                       hats off to them, as they have at least backed                       their engines.  In                       their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the                       States are running regular car fuel.  This causes                       detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!               

                

If you need more                       power keep in mind in general you will need more                       gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase                       inspection requirements, require greater cooling                       mass, and of course add cost.  An airplane                       is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.  If you change                       one thing, you affect 20 others.  Choose                       wisely.                 

                

Example:  Charts are                       scare still for the 915.               

5000 RPM wide                       open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more                       than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow                       27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.                                       

A 20 HP increase                       on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase                       of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is                       better than most.                                       

However, the                       range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not                       increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20                       ANMPG.                 

                

The Europa drag                       goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the                       trigear.  The                       mono is much better at still basically a square                       root curve.  More                       horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency                       or speed.               

                

The 914 fits                       easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a                       constant speed prop without issue or added                       extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to                       10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise                       climb.  I                       can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for                       cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max                       speed.  Both                       the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane                       fuel as the 914 so no advantage.  The 914 turbo                       takes care of most of the issues with density                       altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from                       cruise to max continuous from the surface to                       service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which                       is our human physiological limit without cabin                       pressurization).  We                       know how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified                       and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data                       dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10                       without a special dongle.  I donâ€™t have                       Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.  Carbs are                       easy to balance, and the installation manual is                       easy to follow.  Always                       follow the engine installation manual in                       conjunction with the airframe firewall forward                       manual .               

                

The 915 was                       never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine                       mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft                       firewall forwards.                        Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the                       915 to a 912/914 airframe.  The 915 is                       unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change                       without a â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to                       tell you what itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting                       manual is a bit sparce.  Much study                       and patience is needed                       as the 915 goes through its teething issues.  It runs lean                       on the ground like the 912iS and will overheat                       easily during an extended taxi out.  Automatic                       systems means you the                       pilot lose control.                        Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off                       and find economy only comes through lower power.  They have                       found fuel burn is the same for the same speed                       after an engine change from the S to the iS.  The 915 has a                       similar issue with the power requirements.  It is not                       like hopping into your BMW tubo and everything                       works.  It                       is still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection                       and turbo mods.  Today                       it all works flawlessly in our autos, but with                       larger cooling requirements and components taking                       up more space under the hood.  The 915 is                       not quite a plug and play engine electrically                       either.  Look                       at Sling and their learning curve.   The 4 place                       needs 140-150 HP.                        The two place not so much.  Guys are                       looking hard at the difference.               

                

In summary, the                       Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of                       light weight.  It                       is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.  More weight                       makes the induced drag go up.   The mono                       airframe was not designed to go faster than about                       170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900                       pounds.  If                       you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane                       gets sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.  In the                       States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is                       essential for getting around west of the                       Mississippi river. For my snow                         birds coming from Canada to Florida for                       the winter, they need that range also.  Frankly, a                       bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less                       payload, and a longer day.   More horsepower                       is not as important as more torque.  Torque turns                       the prop, HP just                       makes it spin up faster.               

                

Keep it light,                       keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free                       steed with stock components.  Work on drag                       reduction and keeping the weight down.  Not by                       slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and                       cost on a very small airframe.                 

                

Just my                       thoughtsâ€¦.               

                

Best Regards,               

Bud Yerly               

                

-----Original                       Message-----

                       From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                       <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                       On Behalf Of Pete

                       Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM

                       To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                       Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with                       your Europa this week - 08/11/22               

                

-->                       Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>               

                

â€¦.except for the                       concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and                       single point of failure (FI).               

Cheers,               

PeteZ               

                

                

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 10,                       2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                       wrote:               

                

 ï»¿-->                       Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>               

                

 Brian the                       Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if                       forward mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru                       is said to finally be showing reliability but i                       would still choose Edge over Jabiru               

                

                

                

                

 Read this                       topic online here:               

                

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barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:51 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Pete, good on you, that actually sounds like a good option for UL Power, 

I would have thought there is a big market for that weight break and 

lower cost than Rotax. As you say, thermally the same, using the 350 

parts on their proven base block, appears to be a relatively low risk 

venture. We live in hope.

Cheers,

Brian Phillips.

On 12/11/2022 9:57 pm, Pete wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Re ULPower, following for years. Appears to be solid.  Have been trying to convince them for years now to offer a turboâ€™d low compression 260 (at) 130hp, as thermally a no brainer, as it has the same heads and bottom end (just shorter stroke) as their 130hp 350, but alas they don't see a market. I keep telling them they would supplant the 914 market, and steal from the 915 for those airframes who are weight limited (as the europa), being simpler and lighter etc.  instead they are chasing the larger lycoming market with their turbo 6cyl.

 *sniff*

 Cheers,

 PeteZ

> On Nov 12, 2022, at 2:12 AM, Area-51<goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>  wrote:

>

> ï»¿

>

> Agree with Pete regarding accumulated hours v's reliability; only time in the sky will definitively answer that one.

>

> What about UL Power? Has anybody user feedback on these? They seem like everything a Jabiru is trying to be???

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508738#508738

>

barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:55 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Thanks Pete, I didn't realize Viking had so many issues, I'm glad I     removed it from my short list long ago. With the 912s piston kits,     they utilize the original heads, so the pistons must have a slightly     deeper dish than the standard pistons. Not sure if the quench area     changes. So bigger piston diameter plus extra dish area means more     heat to reject. CR is 10.5:1, down from std 11:1, this helps. I need     to find some reliability data from actual users. 

     

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips.

     

     On 12/11/2022 10:06 pm, Pete wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Re viking, Â direct injection with a single pump,         ugh. Driven be a custom single ECU (what could go wrong?), duty         cycle (oiling clearances etc) risks as you mentioned, &         Heavy as heck. Shadetree gearbox with simple and i submit         insufficient rubber coupling for resonances. Jan throws garbage         on the market and lets the customers teeth out the deficiencies.         Heâ€™s no engineer, but a legacy vw mechanic by training. More         than a few power unit failures now (with deaths) as they are         starting to get airborn.

       

       

       Re 912s piston kits: would luv to see reliabilty         data. Keep hearing bad things. Compression still stock?

       

       

       Cheers,

       PeteZ

       

          	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 11:21 PM, Brian           Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)           wrote:

           

                  ï»¿                      Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few           accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At least           the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank, which is           essentially the same as the 914 with the same output. The           lighter than standard pistons may even reduce crank stresses.           

           

           I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem           to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery           issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto           engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% duty factor           can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to the suby though.           I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no problems,           great engine.Â  

           

           William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you           used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you           actually add a bit more boost in? 

           

           Cheers,

           

           Brian Phillips. Â  Â  

           

           On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		                            My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s               principal over the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full               of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with some               critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets               his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And some have (ex:               cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to               tease out all that pepper.

             

             

             Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan               even lacks the engineering basics).

             

             

             Difficult to watch.

             

             

             Cheers,

             PeteZ

             

                	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian                 Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)                 wrote:

                 

                              ï»¿                                  Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice                 below, much appreciated, your background knowledge never                 ceases to amaze me.Â  

                 

                 You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing                 all the retrofit work, along with theÂ  weight issues,                 its just not worth it, and I would never finish it. I am                 still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about                 the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about                 some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking                 again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with                 no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit                 risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI                 software, they supply a fuel pressure reg that increases                 the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder,                 again an added risk. Add to that limited operational                 history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As                 you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation. 

                 

                 Cheers,

                 Brian Phillips. 

                 

                 On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud                   Yerly wrote:

                 

                  	  Quote: 	
		                                                                                                                         <![endif]-->  Clean Clean      false false false  EN-US X-NONE X-NONE                         <![endif]-->                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           <![endif]-->                   (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; }(at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: rgb(5, 99, 193); text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; }p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText { margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; }span.PlainTextChar { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; }span.GramE { }.MsoChpDefault { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; }div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]-->  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                                        

Pete, as                             you are most aware and Brian you are                             learning fast:                     

Weight is                             the enemy of an airplane.Â  Especially                             the Europa, as it is a very compact                             aircraft.Â  If                             I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG                             forward, requires a prop extension and a                             constant speed prop, the CG is going to be                             somewhere around the spinner.Â  Now we                             move the battery back, run longer heavier                             cables and as much more to the rear as                             possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to                             counterbalance the nose. The weight just                             keeps going up. Â The                             Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the                             equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS                             fuselage module and firewall forward.Â  The 912                             80 HP is not a spectacular performer but                             will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a                             leaning device at altitudes up to about                             10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot                             range.Â  The                             912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.Â  The 914                             doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at                             least 140-145 knot range at the same 25                             ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear                             aircraft of course.Â  The                             mono is faster and lighter of course.Â                        

Â                      

As I                             learned on modifying the 914 to fuel                             injection.Â  Customers                             moved the boost up to get more power but                             complained it burned more fuel.Â  The                             only advantage was more power with less                             reliability.Â                              Fuel burn was basically the same at                             31 inches and 5000 RPM.Â  So,                             what did I gain?Â  Slightly                             more power for climb but more heat to                             dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow                             climb was necessary to cool.Â  BTU                             requirements are the same for the same                                 amount of power at the same                             fuel air ratio and varies little with                             displacement.Â                              Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs                             like a marine engines,                             so a carb is just as good as fuel injection                             except for altitude performance of a                             normally aspirated engine with no leaning.Â  The                             Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in                             the normally aspirated engine.Â  So, an                             after market leaning system is necessary for                             the  high altitude                             flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the                             912/912S.Â  The                             Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude                             operations and frankly ideal for the Europa                             but at a higher cost. I believe the 914                             totally transformed the Europa into a great                             airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as                             good as the 912S but as we all know, there                             are techniques and inspections required to                             keep it running like new.                     

Â                      

Normally a                             912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with                             only carb maintenance/oil changes.Â  Overspeed                             of the engine is an issue many ignore.Â  The                             valves can and do contact the piston if                             oversped.Â  Prop                             strikes are ignored also by many STOL                             operators and taildragger/mono.                     

I do a top                             overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox,                             clean up the valves, inspect the                             rings/cylinders) and press on.Â  Repeat                             at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500                             hours.Â  The                             cleanup of the valves restores compression                             to like new or better than new and is really                             a surprise when a 914                               burps after only about 5 blades of                             rotation.                     

Â                      

I have no                             experience with the latest Edge Performance                             engines, but I do with the so called "Big                             Bore" engines done here in the States some                             years ago.Â  They                             do put out more power.Â  But for                             how long?Â  Over                             the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S                             (especially the new blocks) last and last.Â  Most of                             the Big Bores were back in after as short as                             200 hours.Â  But                             we have many cowboys here in the States that                             just want more power but won't pay for it to                             get power and reliability.Â  I was                             around for the first of these Big Bore mods.Â  As Edge                             Performance has found out, the crank shaft,                             and many other formally robust Rotax parts                             are now under more stress and required                             "upgrade".Â  This                             costs money.Â                              My hats off to them, as they have at                             least backed their engines.Â  In                             their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in                             the States are running regular car fuel. Â This                             causes detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix                             stupid!                     

Â                      

If you                             need more power keep in mind in general you                             will need more gas, gain weight, reduce                             reliability, increase inspection                             requirements, require greater cooling mass,                             and of course add cost.Â  An                             airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in                             close formation.Â  If you                             change one thing, you affect 20 others.Â  Choose                             wisely.Â                       

Â                      

Example:Â  Charts                             are scare still for the 915.                     

5000 RPM                             wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP                             (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP and                             TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.Â                       

A 20 HP                             increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise                             speed increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above                             10,000 feet which is better than most.Â                       

However,                             the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon                             does not increase it decreases from about 25                             ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.Â                       

Â                      

The Europa                             drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root                             for the trigear.Â  The                             mono is much better at still basically a                             square root curve.Â  More                             horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive                             efficiency or speed.                     

Â                      

The 914                             fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool,                             accepts a constant speed prop without issue                             or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will get you                             to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a                             cruise climb.Â                              I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower                             continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for                             a trigear) or max speed.Â  Both                             the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same                             octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.Â  The 914                             turbo takes care of most of the issues with                             density altitude, it allows the Bing to work                             ideally from cruise to max continuous from                             the surface to service ceiling (which is                             well above 25,000 which is our human                             physiological limit without cabin                             pressurization).Â  We know                             how to maintain it, the TCU has been                             modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or                             simply run a data dump from my laptop                             running Windows 7 through 10 without a                             special dongle.Â  I donâ€™t                             have Windows 11 yet, but it should work                             also.Â  Carbs                             are easy to balance, and the installation                             manual is easy to follow.Â  Always                             follow the engine installation manual in                             conjunction with the airframe firewall                             forward manual .                     

Â                      

The 915                             was never designed to fit a standard Rotax                             engine mount and does not fit most                             experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Â  Extensive                             work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a                             912/914 airframe.Â  The 915                             is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil                             change without a â€œbudsâ€ system for the                             average owner to tell you what itâ€™s doing                             but the troubleshooting manual is a bit                             sparce.Â  Much                             study and patience is                             needed as the 915 goes through its teething                             issues.Â  It                             runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and                             will overheat easily during an extended taxi                             out.Â  Automatic                             systems means                             you the pilot lose control.Â  Many                             912iS owners hate the power drop off and                             find economy only comes through lower power.Â  They                             have found fuel burn is the same for the                             same speed after an engine change from the S                             to the iS.Â  The                             915 has a similar issue with the power                             requirements.Â                              It is not like hopping into your BMW                             tubo and everything works.Â  It is                             still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel                             injection and turbo mods.Â  Today                             it all works flawlessly in our autos, but                             with larger cooling requirements and                             components taking up more space under the                             hood.Â  The                             915 is not quite a plug and play engine                             electrically either.Â  Look at                             Sling and their learning curve.Â   The 4                             place needs 140-150 HP.Â  The two                             place not so much.Â  Guys                             are looking hard at the difference.                     

Â                      

In                             summary, the Europa was designed for about                             100HP engines of light weight.Â  It is                             fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload                             airplane.Â  More                             weight makes the induced drag go up.Â   The                             mono airframe was not designed to go faster                             than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an                             empty weight of 900 pounds.Â  If you                             go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane                             gets sluggish, speed drops and range is                             decreased.Â  In                             the States, a 1000 mile per day range                             airplane is essential for getting around                             west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming                             from Canada to Florida for the winter, they                             need that range also.Â  Frankly,                             a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less                             payload, and a longer day.Â  Â More                             horsepower is not as important as more                             torque.Â  Torque                             turns the prop,                             HP just makes it spin up faster.                     

Â                      

Keep it                             light, keep it simple, and it will be a                             trouble-free steed with stock components.Â  Work on                             drag reduction and keeping the weight down.Â  Not by                             slapping more horsepower, weight,                             complexity, and cost on a very small                             airframe.Â                       

Â                      

Just my                             thoughtsâ€¦.                     

Â                      

Best                             Regards,                     

Bud Yerly                     

Â                      

-----Original                             Message-----

                             From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                             <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                             On Behalf Of Pete

                             Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM

                             To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                             Subject: Re: Re: What did you                             do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22                     

Â                      

-->                             Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>                     

Â                      

â€¦.except                             for the concerns of Edge welded cranks                             (cracking), and single point of failure                             (FI).                     

Cheers,                     

PeteZ                     

Â                      

Â                      

 	  Quote: 	
		   On                             Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                             wrote:                     

                      

                             ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by:                             "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                     

                      

 Brian                             the Edge Performance engines are worth                             looking at if forward mass is a concern...                             the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be                             showing reliability but i would still choose                             Edge over Jabiru                     

                      

                      

                      

                      

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barp99(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:56 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you     have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to     change the gearbox ratio? 

     Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or     replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher     altitudes? 

     

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips.

     

     On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                I use up to 36â€ although lots of people in         Colombia go up to 40â€.Â  So yes pretty much the same boost as a         914.

       

       

       If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo         system and airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. Â  And also         the oil system to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected.Â  A         bigger main jet is normal. Â  Â  However the gochta is that you         need to change the gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper clutch.         Â  All of this can actually be done in a day (the exhaust and         airbox are made beforehand.)

       

       

       I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in         the previous one I had a simple wastegate controller like a car

       

       

       I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an         issue.

       

       

       The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by         mitisubishi

       

       

       Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary         otherwise they suck air at altitude. Â 

       

                    On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at             23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		                Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too               few accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At               least the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank,               which is essentially the same as the 914 with the same               output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce               crank stresses. 

               

               I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I               seem to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves &               delivery issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller               on auto engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100%               duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to               the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K               miles, no problems, great engine.Â  

               

               William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember               you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or               do you actually add a bit more boost in? 

               

               Cheers,

               

               Brian Phillips. Â  Â  

               

               On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                   My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s                   principal over the years, fwiw, is that he is chock                   full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with                   some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge,                   and lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And some                   have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few                   accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.

                 

                 

                 Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although                   Jan even lacks the engineering basics).

                 

                 

                 Difficult to watch.

                 

                 

                 Cheers,

                 PeteZ

                 

                    	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM,                     Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)                     wrote:

                     

                                      ï»¿ Bud, thanks very much for your well                     laid out advice below, much appreciated, your                     background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.Â  

                     

                     You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of                     doing all the retrofit work, along with theÂ  weight                     issues, its just not worth it, and I would never                     finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, &                     was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit.                     Your comments below about some of the US based big                     bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does                     seem a little high, combined with no detonation                     detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky.                     Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI                     software, they supply a fuel pressure reg that                     increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are                     working harder, again an added risk. Add to that                     limited operational history, makes the 914 look an                     even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises                     flying in close formation. 

                     

                     Cheers,

                     Brian Phillips. 

                     

                     On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:

                     

                      	  Quote: 	
		                                                  

Pete, as                                 you are most aware and Brian you are                                 learning fast:                         

Weight is                                 the enemy of an airplane.Â  Especially                                 the Europa, as it is a very compact                                 aircraft.Â  If I add 15                                 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward,                                 requires a prop extension and a constant                                 speed prop, the CG is going to be                                 somewhere around the spinner.Â  Now                                 we move the battery back, run longer                                 heavier cables and as much more to the                                 rear as possible such as autopilots,                                 ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.                                 The weight just keeps going up. Â The                                 Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the                                 equivalent Europa Classic even with the                                 XS fuselage module and firewall forward.Â                                  The 912 80 HP is not a                                 spectacular performer but will give 30                                 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning                                 device at altitudes up to about 10,000                                 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot                                 range.Â  The 912S raised                                 the cruise about 5 knots more.Â  The                                 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise                                 to at least 140-145 knot range at the                                 same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle                                 gear aircraft of course.Â  The                                 mono is faster and lighter of course.Â                                                            

Â                          

As I                                 learned on modifying the 914 to fuel                                 injection.Â  Customers                                 moved the boost up to get more power but                                 complained it burned more fuel.Â  The                                 only advantage was more power with less                                 reliability.Â  Fuel burn                                 was basically the same at 31 inches and                                 5000 RPM.Â  So, what did I                                 gain?Â  Slightly more power                                 for climb but more heat to dissipate, a                                 bigger radiator and shallow climb was                                 necessary to cool.Â  BTU                                 requirements are the same for the                                     same amount of power at                                 the same fuel air ratio and varies                                 little with displacement.Â  Aircraft                                 engines run at constant RPMs like a marine                                   engines, so a carb is just as                                 good as fuel injection except for                                 altitude performance of a normally                                 aspirated engine with no leaning.Â                                  The Bing stops leaning after                                 about 3500 feet in the normally                                 aspirated engine.Â  So, an                                 after market leaning system is necessary                                 for the  high altitude                                 flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the                                 912/912S.Â  The Rotax 914                                 is ideal for higher altitude operations                                 and frankly ideal for the Europa but at                                 a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally                                 transformed the Europa into a great                                 airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now                                 as good as the 912S but as we all know,                                 there are techniques and inspections                                 required to keep it running like new.                         

Â                          

Normally a                                 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours                                 with only carb maintenance/oil changes.Â                                  Overspeed of the engine is an                                 issue many ignore.Â  The                                 valves can and do contact the piston if                                 oversped.Â  Prop strikes                                 are ignored also by many STOL operators                                 and taildragger/mono.                         

I do a top                                 overhaul at about 500-600 hours                                 (gearbox, clean up the valves, inspect                                 the rings/cylinders) and press on.Â                                  Repeat at 1000 hours and the                                 engine is good to 1500 hours.Â  The                                 cleanup of the valves restores                                 compression to like new or better than                                 new and is really a surprise when a                                   914 burps after only about 5                                 blades of rotation.                         

Â                          

I have no                                 experience with the latest Edge                                 Performance engines, but I do with the                                 so called "Big Bore" engines done here                                 in the States some years ago.Â  They                                 do put out more power.Â  But                                 for how long?Â  Over the                                 years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S                                 (especially the new blocks) last and                                 last.Â  Most of the Big                                 Bores were back in after as short as 200                                 hours.Â  But we have many                                 cowboys here in the States that just                                 want more power but won't pay for it to                                 get power and reliability.Â                                  I was around for the first of                                 these Big Bore mods.Â  As                                 Edge Performance has found out, the                                 crank shaft, and many other formally                                 robust Rotax parts are now under more                                 stress and required "upgrade".Â  This                                 costs money.Â  My hats off                                 to them, as they have at least backed                                 their engines.Â  In their                                 defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in                                 the States are running regular car fuel.                                 Â This causes detonation for                                 sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!                         

Â                          

If you need                                 more power keep in mind in general you                                 will need more gas, gain weight, reduce                                 reliability, increase inspection                                 requirements, require greater cooling                                 mass, and of course add cost.Â  An                                 airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in                                 close formation.Â  If you                                 change one thing, you affect 20 others.Â                                  Choose wisely.Â                           

Â                          

Example:Â                                  Charts are scare still for the                                 915.                         

5000 RPM                                 wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP                                 (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP                                 and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.Â                                                           

A 20 HP                                 increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a                                 cruise speed increase of nearly 10-13                                 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better                                 than most.Â                           

However,                                 the range in Air Nautical Mile per                                 Gallon does not increase it decreases                                 from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.Â                                                           

Â                          

The Europa                                 drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube                                 root for the trigear.Â  The                                 mono is much better at still basically a                                 square root curve.Â  More                                 horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive                                 efficiency or speed.                         

Â                          

The 914                                 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool,                                 accepts a constant speed prop without                                 issue or added extensions, has a                                 reasonable fuel burn and                                 will get you to 10,000 feet in about                                 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.Â                                  I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower                                 continuous for cruise (typically 140-145                                 for a trigear) or max speed.Â  Both                                 the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the                                 same octane fuel as the 914 so no                                 advantage.Â  The 914 turbo                                 takes care of most of the issues with                                 density altitude, it allows the Bing to                                 work ideally from cruise to max                                 continuous from the surface to service                                 ceiling (which is well above 25,000                                 which is our human physiological limit                                 without cabin pressurization).Â  We                                 know how to maintain it, the TCU has                                 been modified and I can setup,                                 troubleshoot or simply run a data dump                                 from my laptop running Windows 7 through                                 10 without a special dongle.Â  I                                 donâ€™t have Windows 11 yet, but it should                                 work also.Â  Carbs are easy                                 to balance, and the installation manual                                 is easy to follow.Â  Always                                 follow the engine installation manual in                                 conjunction with the airframe firewall                                 forward manual .                         

Â                          

The 915 was                                 never designed to fit a standard Rotax                                 engine mount and does not fit most                                 experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Â                                  Extensive work is necessary to                                 retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.Â                                  The 915 is unmaintainable but for                                 plugs and oil change without a â€œbudsâ€                                 system for the average owner to tell you                                 what itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting                                 manual is a bit sparce.Â  Much                                 study and patience is                                 needed as the 915 goes through its                                 teething issues.Â  It runs                                 lean on the ground like the 912iS and                                 will overheat easily during an extended                                 taxi out.Â  Automatic                                 systems means you the                                 pilot lose control.Â  Many                                 912iS owners hate the power drop off and                                 find economy only comes through lower                                 power.Â  They have found                                 fuel burn is the same for the same speed                                 after an engine change from the S to the                                 iS.Â  The 915 has a similar                                 issue with the power requirements.Â                                  It is not like hopping into your                                 BMW tubo and everything works.Â  It                                 is still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel                                 injection and turbo mods.Â  Today                                 it all works flawlessly in our autos,                                 but with larger cooling requirements and                                 components taking up more space under                                 the hood.Â  The 915 is not                                 quite a plug and play engine                                 electrically either.Â  Look                                 at Sling and their learning curve.Â                                   The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.Â                                  The two place not so much.Â                                  Guys are looking hard at the                                 difference.                         

Â                          

In summary,                                 the Europa was designed for about 100HP                                 engines of light weight.Â  It                                 is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500                                   pound payload airplane.Â                                  More weight makes the induced                                 drag go up.Â   The mono                                 airframe was not designed to go faster                                 than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an                                 empty weight of 900 pounds.Â  If                                 you go above 900 pounds empty weight,                                 the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and                                 range is decreased.Â  In                                 the States, a 1000 mile per day range                                 airplane is essential for getting around                                 west of the Mississippi river. For my snow                                   birds coming from Canada to                                 Florida for the winter, they need that                                 range also.Â  Frankly, a                                 bigger engine makes for shorter hops,                                 less payload, and a longer day.Â  Â More                                 horsepower is not as important as more                                 torque.Â  Torque turns the                                 prop, HP just makes it spin                                 up faster.                         

Â                          

Keep it                                 light, keep it simple, and it will be a                                 trouble-free steed with stock                                 components.Â  Work on drag                                 reduction and keeping the weight down.Â                                  Not by slapping more horsepower,                                 weight, complexity, and cost on a very                                 small airframe.Â                           

Â                          

Just my                                 thoughtsâ€¦.                         

Â                          

Best                                 Regards,                         

Bud Yerly                         

Â                          

-----Original                                 Message-----

                                 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                 <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                 On Behalf Of Pete

                                 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59                                 AM

                                 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                                 Subject: Re: Re: What did                                 you do with your Europa this week -                                 08/11/22                         

Â                          

-->                                 Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>                         

Â                          

â€¦.except                                 for the concerns of Edge welded cranks                                 (cracking), and single point of failure                                 (FI).                         

Cheers,                         

PeteZ                         

Â                          

Â                          

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov                                 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                                 wrote:                         

                          

                                 ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by:                                 "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                         

                          

 Brian                                 the Edge Performance engines are worth                                 looking at if forward mass is a                                 concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said                                 to finally be showing reliability but i                                 would still choose Edge over Jabiru                         

                          

                          

                          

                          

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                                                                                           William Daniell

                   

                   LONGPORT

               

               +1 786 878 0246

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:18 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Let me try to shed some light here from experience.  The cost to performance issue has been around since airplanes became accepted as a â€œnecessaryâ€ part of higher speed transportation.   

  

First:  Propellers fly on torque.  The reason the 2.27 gearbox was better for the Columbians was the wide chord Warp Blade requires too much torque in comparison to the 914, hence the 912 (80HP) even with lower normalized  boost hasnâ€™t sufficient torque to pull a wide chord Warp at full power.  Had narrower chord blade been selected, fixed or constant speed prop, these issues change a lot.  Too many for this level of discussion.   At sea level manifold pressure with no losses the 80HP Rotax cannot turn a fixed 64 inch Wide Chord WD prop set for a 5000 RMP WOT much beyond about 5200 RPM.  Takeoff suffers.  Therefore, WD and others have smaller diameter or narrow chord blades to match to the 80HP Rotax.  So, if I turbo normalize the 80 HP engine to 30 or even 35 inches, the engine/prop combination becomes a compromise of changes.  Either the pitch has to be changed to decrease torque, the boost and therefore mixtures, jetting, fuel grade, and gearbox ratio has to be tweaked to make the engine â€œrunnableâ€ within the narrower torque range of engine with a now smaller or narrower  prop.   

  

Second:  Looking at the cruise speed difference doesnâ€™t tell the whole story but in fact it does.  In high altitude operations, a turbo or supercharging is essential to regain sea level performance or perhaps a bit more.  The back yard mechanics tweaked and tinkered to get a truck turbo and custom hand built components and jetting to get around the higher cost of the stock 914 due to rather onerous taxation in Columbia or as I did, just tinkering.  Turbo normalization, prop and gearbox selection (but not optimization) led to a workable boost to allow reasonable performance for takeoff, climb and some additional cruise at altitude.  However, without optimized waste gate control, you loose efficiency and power in cruise to gain takeoff.  So, a turbo normalized 912 vs a 914 may only be 10 knots, but it is more than that.  If you desire to optimize takeoff, climb, and cruise, then a more refined means of turbo waste gate control is necessary. That means a computer, or at least a circuit card with a application.    Will did a great job of describing his build situation compromises in his last email.  For him, it was his choice of compromises.  He knew what had worked in Columbia to meet his basic requirements/compromises. 

  

Third:  The Columbian conversion and the Italian chap (Vz Power) with the bolt on turbo or even the â€œBig Boreâ€ conversions are all interesting experiments in getting around the Austrian overpriced 914.  After all, the TCU control of a wastegate is not rocket science and a stock Garret turbo is only $500.  But you have to look at the cost to long term maintenance and parts availability issues also.  In my working with Jason Parker on a degraded Predator Drone engine, we put a stock Garett Turbo, a waste gate dashpot and an SDS fuel injection on a 2015 9XX Rotax stronger block (now stock on all Rotax engines).  Jason removed the cylinders/heads, installed forged pistons, worked fuel mapping and boost control to get a very workable engine for about $15000 less than a 914 and a lot less than a 915.  However, who got paid back for investing in all this work.  Not I, as I didnâ€™t ask for any, but Jason lost 3 years of his life (but was hired to a lucrative position in defense) for all his work.  About 25 engines were modified and very quickly sold.  Half of them however were tinkered with by â€œknowledgeable amateurs/experimenterâ€ and eventually blew up cylinders and pistons when tweaked to 60 inches of MP for superb takeoff and climb.  When you modify an existing engine for more power, you always trade off something.   

  

My hat is off to those attempting to improve the internal combustion piston  engine.  Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, and others developed wonderfully complex hydromechanical control systems to increase engine power and in some cases longevity and many other manufacturers capitalized on that from  the 1930â€™s to the 50â€™s until the demise of the high powered piston aircraft engine.  The internal combustion piston engine was left as a necessary evil mired in inefficiency and relegated to mass produced autos.  But then, about 20 years ago computer/digital systems became cheap and available.  Toyotaâ€™s TRD division, Fordâ€™s Racing, Mercedes and BMW as well as other motor divisions have developed wonderfully powerful and more efficient engines.  Today modern electronic controls finally bring these dinosaur piston engines into greater efficiency.  Supercharging and Turbo-super-charging can be electronically controlled with the fuel injection to prevent untrained operators from blowing them up and produced an automobile engine that is high powered and yet a reliable daily use vehicle.  However, more power means the more your inspection and installation requirements go up, improved cooling, higher octane fuel types and improved electronic â€œsensoringâ€ to keep it all running flawlessly.  Luckily, we donâ€™t push our autos to the extreme we push our aircraft engines.  (Although I did leave a Porsche 4 seater in the dirt with my 495 HP pickup truck from the stoplight a few months ago which was great fun for a couple of old guys, but he will never forget to be in â€œsport modeâ€ again if he sees me..  ) 

  

In the many compromises we make in building an aircraft, never forget that the  engine and prop are the powerplant.  The engine supplies torque to the torque converter (propeller) and if you are smart, a variable pitch propeller.  This prop choice allows one to take every bit of power the engine can produce for takeoff, and climb, then power down to 75% and run a few thousand hours with the prop pulling full power out of the available HP and Torque for cruise also.  HP is the rate of work, torque is the twisting force and the twisting force/RPM is what is important for cruise.  The 914 has reasonably optimized all these and with a constant speed (or variable pitch (with higher pilot work load)) prop is not only more efficient, but is mechanically more reliable than a fixed or mechanically controlled wastegate.  Is it perfect, no, is it overpriced, yes, and am I frustrated with their turbo rebuild fiasco of a repair program, absolutely (a turbo only costs about $400 to rebuild and Rotax wants you to replace it for $8000, that is just plain greedyâ€).  Do I like turbo normalization (30 inches), yes, do I like more boost absolutely, but at what cost and reliability?   

  

For me, Iâ€™ll stick with my 914 because I can get parts, it is easy to troubleshoot  from the TCU to the carbs and frankly just plugs onto the front of my Europa.  Is it as nice an engine as the high tech 915, no way, but the extra stuff on the 915 doesnâ€™t really suit my aircraft or pocketbook.  Performance wise, if I want to suck on oxygen and fly at 17,500 MSL to get 160 Kts. Vs 143 at 10,000 feet ish, it is worth it for me to stick to the 914 rather than upgrade and change everything on the FWF to match a different engine, then rebalance  the aircraft.  My drag curve goes much more vertical above 140 Knots and frankly, the only advantage of the 915 is rate of climb (thatâ€™s HP or rate of work) but my top cruise increase is going to be less spectacular for  all that work, extra weight and fuel burn.  Ah compromises! 

  

Choose wisely to meet your requirements.  Everyone has a different flying mission for their aircraft.  The stock 912S (100HP) is a nice option for the Europa for a lower altitude performer.  The UL engine is gaining popularity (Iâ€™m still not completely sure why, as the performance increases with most planes isnâ€™t showing up in cruise performance, and prop performance to match at this time is being worked out).  It is a well engineered product though and impressive.  But is it as maintainable over time.   Time will tell.  Although Airmaster has attacked that faster spinning UL issue in an attempt to match the engine power/torque to a propeller, as of today, results are encouraging.  The faster spinning UL has only about the same torque as the Rotax 9 series.  The higher power meant more cooling issues, higher octane fuel (100LL is best) and it appears that the engine canâ€™t be lugged down to lower RPMs most likely due to detonation, hence the faster spinning engine (pump) must be electronically leaned for  efficiency and hence cooling rears its ugly head.  The UL 350 series engine develops max torque (330nm or 230Ft/lbs.) at about 23-2400 RPM which is 100 HP at sea level but at about 25L/Hr. or 6.6 GPH.  Note the fall off of torque as RPM increases.  The gearbox makes a difference in how hard you pull the RPM down vs using the fuel to prevent detonation by running a bit richer.  That is not a great leap over the 912iS or even the 912S in cruise speed, at and the UL is at a higher fuel burn.  At altitude though the HP drops significantly an any normally aspirated engine and on the 350iS and 912iS as the fuel burn goes down to about 17L/Hr. or 4.5 GPH.  Not bad and comparable to the Rotax 912iS and 912S with a HacMan leaning kit.   Since 2018, UL is continuing to solve all these issues as they attempt to overcome the inefficiencies of the dinosaur horizontally opposed air cooled engine issues in aircraft through fuel mapping, compression ratio,  and timing controls.  Good on them. Rotax was forced to catch up.  And did they do it well.  Well, that remains to be seen. 

  

The 914 like the 912/912S fits the cowl FWF package without major issue (you  got to do the cooling work though).  Extra power means extra heat to dissipate.  The UL teething issues are mostly from poor cowl design or execution in my opinion which will take time and money to iron out (why cowl flaps are not used by manufacturers I cannot explain).  Too bad as they really need an efficient cowl design for cruise to get rid of the heat in cruise and cowl flaps in climb to cool properly at low speed and high power.  In my opinion, the airframe manufacturers seem to be indifferent to higher power engines cooling needs and settle for all but the most basic lower power engines requirements (i.e. it costs them money and time and besides, the  actual money is in the stock airplane from a sales point of view).   

  

Research is 90% of your time in selecting an airframe and powerplant.  I prefer to go fly in a similarly equipped aircraft I am considering  to build, as I can copy or just assemble IAW the manual and achieve an acceptable aircraft that will meet or exceed my expectations without worry of reliability, longevity, or parts supply.  As Ira Rampil told me â€œBetter is the enemy of Goodâ€.  One has to raise the issues of cost, time, talent and services needed to go from good to better. 

  

Just my opinion and observations!  

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of William Daniell

 Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2022 8:42 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 

 

   

Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster even in Guaymaral at 8500.  My previous plane a ICP Savannah with an Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox.   I had the ivo with the narrow blades.  The 914 gearbox is 2.43:1. 

  

  

  

Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in Colombia - they even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax.   It could be true - you never know with Colombia.  But in any  case I wasnt the pioneer.  Itâ€™s a well understood process.    The chap who did it for me turned up all the required components with nicely welded stainless exhausts etc installed them and fired up the motor.  Worked ever since no faffing about. 

  

  

  

In any case a 914 would have probably been the way to go but Im a cheapskate.  Or rather it would have cost me the price plus another 15% import tax raising the price to almost  USD40k.  What with labor and parts my current engine cost USD25k. 

  

  

  

You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel pump (you need an electric pump as well).  The mech pump will just about keep you flying at 22â€ MAP.   

  

    

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 00:58 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 

 [quote]  

Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to change the gearbox  ratio? 

 Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher altitudes? 

 

 Cheers,

 Brian Phillips.  

On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote: 

 [quote]  

I use up to 36â€ although lots of people in Colombia go up to 40â€.  So yes pretty much the same boost as a 914. 

  

  

  

If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and airbox exhaust etc as you would expect.   And also the oil system to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected.  A  bigger main jet is normal.     However the gochta is that you need to change the gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper clutch.   All of this can actually be done in a day (the exhaust and airbox are made beforehand.) 

  

  

  

I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous one I had a simple wastegate controller like a car 

  

  

  

I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue. 

  

  

  

The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi 

  

  

  

Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck air at altitude.   

  

    

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 

 [quote]  

Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit does not need  any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as the 914 with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce crank stresses. 

 

 I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks,  not sure if this applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no problems, great engine.  

 

 William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually add a bit more boost in? 

 

 Cheers,

 

 Brian Phillips.       

On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote: 

 [quote]  

My experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s principal over the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which he  will not acknowledge, and lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper. 

  

  

  

Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering basics). 

  

  

  

Difficult to watch. 

  

  

  

Cheers, 

  

PeteZ 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]> [quote] 

On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com) wrote:   

ï»¿ Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.  

 

 You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit work, along with the  weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments  below about some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a  fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited operational history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation. 

 

 Cheers,

 Brian Phillips.   

On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote: 

 [quote]  

Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast: 

Weight is the enemy of an airplane.  Especially the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.  If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed  prop, the CG is going to be somewhere around the spinner.  Now we move the battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going up.  The Europa  XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward.  The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000  feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range.  The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.  The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.  The mono is faster  and lighter of course.   

  

As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.  Customers moved the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel.  The only advantage was more power with less reliability.   Fuel burn was basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.  So, what did I gain?  Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.  BTU requirements are the same for the same amount of power at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.  Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel injection except for altitude  performance of a normally aspirated engine with no leaning.  The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.  So, an after market leaning system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.   The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as we all know, there  are techniques and inspections required to keep it running like new. 

  

Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb maintenance/oil changes.  Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore.  The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.   Prop strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono. 

I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.  Repeat at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.  The cleanup of  the valves restores compression to like new or better than new and is really a surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation. 

  

I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some years ago.  They do put out more power.  But for how long?   Over the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last.  Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours.  But we have many cowboys here in the States that just want more power but won't pay for it to get power and reliability.  I was around for the first of these Big Bore mods.  As Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade".  This costs money.  My hats off to  them, as they have at least backed their engines.  In their defense, some of our â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States are running regular car fuel.  This causes detonation for sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid! 

  

If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of course add cost.   An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.  If you change one thing, you affect 20 others.  Choose wisely.   

  

Example:  Charts are scare still for the 915. 

5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.   

A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.   

However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.   

  

The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.  The mono is much better at still basically a square root curve.  More horsepower doesnâ€™t give me impressive efficiency  or speed. 

  

The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes  in a cruise climb.  I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max speed.  Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.  The 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues  with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization).  We know how to maintain it, the TCU  has been modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.  I donâ€™t have Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.  Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is  easy to follow.  Always follow the engine installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall forward manual . 

  

The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.  Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.   The 915 is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a â€œbudsâ€ system for the average owner to tell you what itâ€™s doing but the troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.  Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes through its teething issues.   It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an extended taxi out.  Automatic systems means you the pilot lose control.  Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy only comes through lower power.  They have found  fuel burn is the same for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS.  The 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements.  It is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.  It is still like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel injection  and turbo mods.  Today it all works flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and components taking up more space under the hood.  The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrically either.  Look at Sling and their learning curve.   The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.  The two place not so much.  Guys are looking hard at the difference. 

  

In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light weight.  It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.  More weight makes the induced drag go up.  The mono  airframe was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.  If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.  In the States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane  is essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need that range also.  Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer day.   More horsepower is  not as important as more torque.  Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster. 

  

Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with stock components.  Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down.  Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity,  and cost on a very small airframe.   

  

Just my thoughtsâ€¦. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

--

barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:23 pm Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Thanks very much, Will, I now understand. Sounds like a smart way of     getting a good engine combination. 

     

     Cheers,

     Brian Phillips. 

     

     On 14/11/2022 12:42 am, William Daniell       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs         with the airmaster even in Guaymaral at 8500.Â  My previous plane         a ICP Savannah with an Ivo had no problem with the 2.27         gearbox.Â  I had the ivo with the narrow blades.Â  The 914 gearbox         is 2.43:1.

       

       

       Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in         Colombia - they even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. Â          It could be true - you never know with Colombia.Â  But in any         case I wasnt the pioneer.Â  Itâ€™s a well understood process. Â          Â The chap who did it for me turned up all the required         components with nicely welded stainless exhausts etc installed         them and fired up the motor.Â  Worked ever since no faffing         about.

       

       

       In any case a 914 would have probably been the way         to go but Im a cheapskate.Â Â Or rather it would have cost me the         price plus another 15% import tax raising the price to almost         USD40k.Â  What with labor and parts my current engine cost         USD25k.

       

       

       You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains         the mechanical fuel pump (you need an electric pump as well).Â          The mech pump will just about keep you flying at 22â€ MAP. Â 

       

                    On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at             00:58 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		                Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are               doing as you have been running it since 2006. Can I ask,               why do you need to change the gearbox ratio? 

               Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to               adjust or replace it to get it to absorb the power               available at higher altitudes? 

               

               Cheers,

               Brian Phillips.

               

               On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote:

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                   I use up to 36â€ although lots of people                   in Colombia go up to 40â€.Â  So yes pretty much the same                   boost as a 914.

                 

                 

                 If you use a stock 912 you have to add                   the turbo system and airbox exhaust etc as you would                   expect. Â  And also the oil system to feed the turbo                   none of which is unexpected.Â  A bigger main jet is                   normal. Â  Â  However the gochta is that you need to                   change the gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper                   clutch. Â  All of this can actually be done in a day                   (the exhaust and airbox are made beforehand.)

                 

                 

                 I have a manual waste gate in this                   engine but in the previous one I had a simple                   wastegate controller like a car

                 

                 

                 I flown with this engine since 2006                   never had an issue.

                 

                 

                 The turbo is from a Renault diesel van -                   made by mitisubishi

                 

                 

                 Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are                   necessary otherwise they suck air at altitude. Â 

                 

                                        On Fri, Nov 11,                       2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>                       wrote:

                     

                      	  Quote: 	
		                          Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you                         say, too few accumulated hours to build reliable                         predictability. At least the big bore kit does                         not need any changes to crank, which is                         essentially the same as the 914 with the same                         output. The lighter than standard pistons may                         even reduce crank stresses. 

                         

                         I did look at the Viking options, I could be                         wrong but I seem to remember belt drive issues,                         recessed valves & delivery issues. I believe                         the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines                         compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% duty                         factor can cause cracks, not sure if this                         applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in                         my road car, 200K miles, no problems, great                         engine.Â  

                         

                         William, your Columbian turbo does interest me,                         I remember you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you                         use it to normalize or do you actually add a bit                         more boost in? 

                         

                         Cheers,

                         

                         Brian Phillips. Â  Â  

                         

                         On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:

                         

                          	  Quote: 	
		                             My experience conversing with                             Edgeâ€™s principal over the years, fwiw, is                             that he is chock full of confidence, many                             good ideas but peppered with some critical                             bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and                             lets his customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And                             some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank).                             Too few accumulated hours to tease out all                             that pepper.

                           

                           

                           Same syndrome as Jan at viking                             (although Jan even lacks the engineering                             basics).

                           

                           

                           Difficult to watch.

                           

                           

                           Cheers,

                           PeteZ

                           

                              	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 11, 2022, at                               6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)                               wrote:

                               

                                                          ï»¿ Bud, thanks very much for                               your well laid out advice below, much                               appreciated, your background knowledge                               never ceases to amaze me.Â  

                               

                               You have talked me out of the 915, the                               thought of doing all the retrofit work,                               along with theÂ  weight issues, its just                               not worth it, and I would never finish it.                               I am still interested in the 912Is, &                               was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big                               bore kit. Your comments below about some                               of the US based big bore kits has got me                               thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a                               little high, combined with no detonation                               detection feedback loop, does sound a bit                               risky. Edge performance don't play with                               the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel                               pressure reg that increases the rail                               pressure, so the pump/s are working                               harder, again an added risk. Add to that                               limited operational history, makes the 914                               look an even better outcome. As you say,                               20,000 compromises flying in close                               formation. 

                               

                               Cheers,

                               Brian Phillips. 

                               

                               On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly                                 wrote:

                               

                                	  Quote: 	
		                                                                      

Pete,                                           as you are most aware and                                           Brian you are learning fast:                                   

Weight                                           is the enemy of an airplane.Â                                            Especially the Europa,                                           as it is a very compact                                           aircraft.Â  If I                                           add 15 horsepower, but it                                           moves the CG forward, requires                                           a prop extension and a                                           constant speed prop, the CG is                                           going to be somewhere around                                           the spinner.Â  Now                                           we move the battery back, run                                           longer heavier cables and as                                           much more to the rear as                                           possible such as autopilots,                                           ELTs, etc. to counterbalance                                           the nose. The weight just                                           keeps going up. Â The                                           Europa XS is 100 pounds                                           heavier than the equivalent                                           Europa Classic even with the                                           XS fuselage module and                                           firewall forward.Â  The                                           912 80 HP is not a spectacular                                           performer but will give 30                                           ANMPG at low altitude or with                                           a leaning device at altitudes                                           up to about 10,000 feet.                                           Cruise is in the 120-130 knot                                           range.Â  The 912S                                           raised the cruise about 5                                           knots more.Â  The                                           914 doubles the climb rate,                                           ups cruise to at least 140-145                                           knot range at the same 25                                           ANMPG as the 912S on a                                           tricycle gear aircraft of                                           course.Â  The                                           mono is faster and lighter of                                           course.Â                                      

Â                                    

As                                           I learned on modifying the 914                                           to fuel injection.Â  Customers                                           moved the boost up to get more                                           power but complained it burned                                           more fuel.Â  The                                           only advantage was more power                                           with less reliability.Â                                            Fuel burn was basically                                           the same at 31 inches and 5000                                           RPM.Â  So, what                                           did I gain?Â  Slightly                                           more power for climb but more                                           heat to dissipate, a bigger                                           radiator and shallow climb was                                           necessary to cool.Â  BTU                                           requirements are the same for                                               the same amount of power                                           at the same fuel air ratio and                                           varies little with                                           displacement.Â  Aircraft                                           engines run at constant RPMs                                           like a marine engines,                                           so a carb is just as good as                                           fuel injection except for                                           altitude performance of a                                           normally aspirated engine with                                           no leaning.Â  The                                           Bing stops leaning after about                                           3500 feet in the normally                                           aspirated engine.Â  So,                                           an after market leaning system                                           is necessary for the                                              high altitude flyers                                           to improve fuel efficiency of                                           the 912/912S.Â  The                                           Rotax 914 is ideal for higher                                           altitude operations and                                           frankly ideal for the Europa                                           but at a higher cost. I                                           believe the 914 totally                                           transformed the Europa into a                                           great airplane. Reliability of                                           the 914 is now as good as the                                           912S but as we all know, there                                           are techniques and inspections                                           required to keep it running                                           like new.                                   

Â                                    

Normally                                           a 912 through the 914 will go                                           1000 hours with only carb                                           maintenance/oil changes.Â                                            Overspeed of the engine                                           is an issue many ignore.Â                                            The valves can and do                                           contact the piston if                                           oversped.Â  Prop                                           strikes are ignored also by                                           many STOL operators and                                           taildragger/mono.                                   

I                                           do a top overhaul at about                                           500-600 hours (gearbox, clean                                           up the valves, inspect the                                           rings/cylinders) and press on.Â                                            Repeat at 1000 hours                                           and the engine is good to 1500                                           hours.Â  The                                           cleanup of the valves restores                                           compression to like new or                                           better than new and is really                                           a surprise when a 914                                             burps after only                                           about 5 blades of rotation.                                   

Â                                    

I                                           have no experience with the                                           latest Edge Performance                                           engines, but I do with the so                                           called "Big Bore" engines done                                           here in the States some years                                           ago.Â  They do                                           put out more power.Â  But                                           for how long?Â  Over                                           the years the stock Rotax 100                                           HP 912S (especially the new                                           blocks) last and last.Â                                            Most of the Big Bores                                           were back in after as short as                                           200 hours.Â  But                                           we have many cowboys here in                                           the States that just want more                                           power but won't pay for it to                                           get power and reliability.Â                                            I was around for the                                           first of these Big Bore mods.Â                                            As Edge Performance has                                           found out, the crank shaft,                                           and many other formally robust                                           Rotax parts are now under more                                           stress and required "upgrade".Â                                            This costs money.Â                                            My hats off to them, as                                           they have at least backed                                           their engines.Â  In                                           their defense, some of our                                           â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States                                           are running regular car fuel.                                           Â This causes                                           detonation for sure. I canâ€™t                                           fix stupid!                                   

Â                                    

If                                           you need more power keep in                                           mind in general you will need                                           more gas, gain weight, reduce                                           reliability, increase                                           inspection requirements,                                           require greater cooling mass,                                           and of course add cost.Â                                            An airplane is 20,000                                           compromises flying in close                                           formation.Â  If                                           you change one thing, you                                           affect 20 others.Â  Choose                                           wisely.Â                                     

Â                                    

Example:Â                                            Charts are scare still                                           for the 915.                                   

5000                                           RPM wide open throttle 87 KW                                           or about 115 HP (10-20 more                                           than the 914 depending on MP                                           and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or                                           7.1GPH.Â                                     

A                                           20 HP increase on N12AY                                           (Trigear) yields a cruise                                           speed increase of nearly 10-13                                           Kts above 10,000 feet which is                                           better than most.Â                                     

However,                                           the range in Air Nautical Mile                                           per Gallon does not increase                                           it decreases from about 25                                           ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.Â                                     

Â                                    

The                                           Europa drag goes up beyond 140                                           Knots by a cube root for the                                           trigear.Â  The                                           mono is much better at still                                           basically a square root curve.Â                                            More horsepower doesnâ€™t                                           give me impressive efficiency                                           or speed.                                   

Â                                    

The                                           914 fits easily in the Europa                                           XS, will cool, accepts a                                           constant speed prop without                                           issue or added extensions, has                                           a reasonable fuel burn                                           and will get you to 10,000                                           feet in about 11-13 minutes in                                           a cruise climb.Â  I                                           can put out 70 to 95                                           horsepower continuous for                                           cruise (typically 140-145 for                                           a trigear) or max speed.Â                                            Both the 912S/iS and                                           Big Bore require the same                                           octane fuel as the 914 so no                                           advantage.Â  The                                           914 turbo takes care of most                                           of the issues with density                                           altitude, it allows the Bing                                           to work ideally from cruise to                                           max continuous from the                                           surface to service ceiling                                           (which is well above 25,000                                           which is our human                                           physiological limit without                                           cabin pressurization).Â                                            We know how to maintain                                           it, the TCU has been modified                                           and I can setup, troubleshoot                                           or simply run a data dump from                                           my laptop running Windows 7                                           through 10 without a special                                           dongle.Â  I donâ€™t                                           have Windows 11 yet, but it                                           should work also.Â  Carbs                                           are easy to balance, and the                                           installation manual is easy to                                           follow.Â  Always                                           follow the engine installation                                           manual in conjunction with the                                           airframe firewall forward                                           manual .                                   

Â                                    

The                                           915 was never designed to fit                                           a standard Rotax engine mount                                           and does not fit most                                           experimental aircraft firewall                                           forwards.Â  Extensive                                           work is necessary to retrofit                                           the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.Â                                            The 915 is                                           unmaintainable but for plugs                                           and oil change without a                                           â€œbudsâ€ system for the average                                           owner to tell you what itâ€™s                                           doing but the troubleshooting                                           manual is a bit sparce.Â                                            Much study and patience                                           is needed as the                                           915 goes through its teething                                           issues.Â  It runs                                           lean on the ground like the                                           912iS and will overheat easily                                           during an extended taxi out.Â                                            Automatic systems means                                           you the pilot lose control.Â                                            Many 912iS owners hate                                           the power drop off and find                                           economy only comes through                                           lower power.Â  They                                           have found fuel burn is the                                           same for the same speed after                                           an engine change from the S to                                           the iS.Â  The 915                                           has a similar issue with the                                           power requirements.Â  It                                           is not like hopping into your                                           BMW tubo and everything works.Â                                            It is still like the                                           1980â€™s first gen fuel                                           injection and turbo mods.Â                                            Today it all works                                           flawlessly in our autos, but                                           with larger cooling                                           requirements and components                                           taking up more space under the                                           hood.Â  The 915                                           is not quite a plug and play                                           engine electrically either.Â                                            Look at Sling and their                                           learning curve.Â                                             The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.Â                                            The two place not so                                           much.Â  Guys are                                           looking hard at the                                           difference.                                   

Â                                    

In                                           summary, the Europa was                                           designed for about 100HP                                           engines of light weight.Â                                            It is fast and                                           efficient for a 100HP 500                                             pound payload                                           airplane.Â  More                                           weight makes the induced drag                                           go up.Â   The                                           mono airframe was not designed                                           to go faster than about 170                                           KTAS at 20,000 feet at an                                           empty weight of 900 pounds.Â                                            If you go above 900                                           pounds empty weight, the plane                                           gets sluggish, speed drops and                                           range is decreased.Â  In                                           the States, a 1000 mile per                                           day range airplane is                                           essential for getting around                                           west of the Mississippi river.                                           For my snow birds                                           coming from Canada to Florida                                           for the winter, they need that                                           range also.Â  Frankly,                                           a bigger engine makes for                                           shorter hops, less payload,                                           and a longer day.Â  Â More                                           horsepower is not as important                                           as more torque.Â  Torque                                           turns the prop,                                           HP just makes it spin up                                           faster.                                   

Â                                    

Keep                                           it light, keep it simple, and                                           it will be a trouble-free                                           steed with stock components.Â                                            Work on drag reduction                                           and keeping the weight down.Â                                            Not by slapping more                                           horsepower, weight,                                           complexity, and cost on a very                                           small airframe.Â                                     

Â                                    

Just                                           my thoughtsâ€¦.                                   

Â                                    

Best                                           Regards,                                   

Bud                                           Yerly                                   

Â                                    

-----Original                                           Message-----

                                           From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                           <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                           On Behalf Of Pete

                                           Sent: Thursday, November 10,                                           2022 6:59 AM

                                           To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                                           Subject: Re: Re:                                           What did you do with your                                           Europa this week - 08/11/22                                   

Â                                    

-->                                           Europa-List message posted by:                                           Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>                                   

Â                                    

â€¦.except                                           for the concerns of Edge                                           welded cranks (cracking), and                                           single point of failure (FI).                                   

Cheers,                                   

PeteZ                                   

Â                                    

Â                                    

 	  Quote: 	
		                                             On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM,                                           Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                                           wrote:                                   

                                                                            

                                           ï»¿--> Europa-List message                                           posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                                   

                                                                            

                                           Brian the Edge Performance                                           engines are worth looking at                                           if forward mass is a                                           concern... the Gen4 6cyl                                           Jabiru is said to finally be                                           showing reliability but i                                           would still choose Edge over                                           Jabiru                                   

                                                                            

                                                                            

                                                                            

                                                                            

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                                                                                                                                                                 William Daniell

                             

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                         +1 786 878 0246

                       

                     

                   

                 

               	
               

             

           	
         

       

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                                                                                           William Daniell

                   

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barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:05 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22

Bud, 

     

     Thanks very much for your explanations below, a great read and very     illuminating. I didn't realize you had done work with Jason Parker.     Agree with everything you have said. The 914's running upward of 60"     MP, effectively doubling their mas flow, I can't see how they would     not ping, blow head gaskets and hole pistons, scary stuff. 

     On your first line, you mention 2.27, i'm assuming a simple typo and     meant 2.43. As the weight of the 914 is pretty much the same as the     912Is, and based on your numerous advice, a 914 is the go if I can     put up with those silly carby things. I spent many years playing     with Holleys, I thought I was over ever having to rebuild of fault     find these thingsÂ  : )

     

     Cheers

     Brian Phillips 

     

     On 14/11/2022 5:17 am, Bud Yerly wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
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Let me try to shed some light here from               experience.Â  The               cost to performance issue has been around since airplanes               became accepted as a â€œnecessaryâ€ part of higher speed               transportation.Â           

Â          

First:Â  Propellers               fly on torque.Â  The               reason the 2.27 gearbox was better for the Columbians was               the wide chord Warp Blade requires too much torque in               comparison to the 914, hence the 912 (80HP) even with               lower normalized boost hasnâ€™t sufficient torque to pull a               wide chord Warp at full power.Â  Had narrower chord               blade been selected, fixed or constant speed prop, these               issues change a lot.Â  Too               many for this level of discussion.Â   At sea level               manifold pressure with no losses the 80HP Rotax cannot               turn a fixed 64 inch Wide Chord WD prop set for a 5000 RMP               WOT much beyond about 5200 RPM.Â  Takeoff suffers.Â  Therefore, WD and               others have smaller diameter or narrow chord blades to               match to the 80HP Rotax.Â  So,               if I turbo normalize the 80 HP engine to 30 or even 35               inches, the engine/prop combination becomes a compromise               of changes.Â  Either               the pitch has to be changed to decrease torque, the boost               and therefore mixtures, jetting, fuel grade, and gearbox               ratio has to be tweaked to make the engine â€œrunnableâ€               within the narrower torque range of engine with a now               smaller or narrower prop.Â                         

Â          

Second:Â  Looking               at the cruise speed difference doesnâ€™t tell the whole               story but in fact it does.Â                In high altitude operations, a turbo or               supercharging is essential to regain sea level performance               or perhaps a bit more. Â The               back yard mechanics tweaked and tinkered to get a truck               turbo and custom hand built               components and jetting to get around the higher cost of               the stock 914 due to rather onerous taxation in Columbia               or as I did, just tinkering.Â                Turbo normalization, prop               and gearbox selection (but not optimization) led to a               workable boost to allow reasonable performance for               takeoff, climb and some additional cruise at altitude.Â  However, without               optimized waste gate control, you loose efficiency and               power in cruise to gain takeoff.Â  So, a turbo               normalized 912 vs a 914 may only be 10 knots, but it is               more than that.Â  If               you desire to optimize takeoff, climb, and cruise, then a               more refined means of turbo waste gate control is               necessary. That means a computer, or at least a circuit               card with a application.Â   Â Will did a great job of               describing his build situation compromises in his last               email.Â  For him, it               was his choice of compromises.Â  He knew what had               worked in Columbia to meet his basic               requirements/compromises.         

Â          

Third:Â  The               Columbian conversion and the Italian chap (Vz Power) with               the bolt on turbo or even the â€œBig Boreâ€ conversions are               all interesting experiments in getting around the Austrian               overpriced 914.Â  After               all, the TCU control of a wastegate is not rocket science               and a stock Garret turbo is only $500.Â  But you have to look               at the cost to long term maintenance and parts               availability issues also.Â                In my working with Jason Parker on a degraded               Predator Drone engine, we put a stock Garett Turbo, a               waste gate dashpot and an SDS fuel injection on a 2015 9XX               Rotax stronger block (now stock on all Rotax engines).Â  Jason removed the               cylinders/heads, installed forged pistons, worked fuel               mapping and boost control to get a very workable engine               for about $15000 less than a 914 and a lot less than a               915.Â  However, who               got paid back for investing in all this work.Â  Not I, as I didnâ€™t               ask for any, but Jason lost 3 years of his life (but was               hired to a lucrative position in defense) for all his               work.Â  About 25               engines were modified and very quickly sold.Â  Half of them however               were tinkered with by â€œknowledgeable               amateurs/experimenterâ€ and eventually blew up cylinders               and pistons when tweaked to 60 inches of MP for superb               takeoff and climb.Â  When               you modify an existing engine for more power, you always               trade off something.Â           

Â          

My hat is off to those attempting to               improve the internal combustion piston engine.Â  Pratt and Whitney,               Rolls Royce, and others developed wonderfully complex               hydromechanical control systems to increase engine power               and in some cases longevity and many other manufacturers               capitalized on that from the 1930â€™s to the 50â€™s until the               demise of the high powered               piston aircraft engine.Â  The               internal combustion piston engine was left as a necessary               evil mired in inefficiency and relegated to mass produced               autos.Â  But then,               about 20 years ago computer/digital systems became cheap               and available.Â  Toyotaâ€™s               TRD division, Fordâ€™s Racing, Mercedes               and BMW as well as other motor divisions have developed               wonderfully powerful and more efficient engines.Â  Today modern               electronic controls finally bring these dinosaur piston               engines into greater efficiency.Â  Supercharging and               Turbo-super-charging can be electronically controlled with               the fuel injection to prevent untrained operators from               blowing them up and produced an automobile engine that is               high powered and yet a reliable daily use vehicle.Â  However, more power               means the more your inspection and installation               requirements go up, improved cooling, higher octane fuel               types and improved electronic â€œsensoringâ€ to keep it all               running flawlessly.Â  Luckily,               we donâ€™t push our autos to the extreme we push our               aircraft engines.Â  (Although               I did leave a Porsche 4 seater in the dirt with my 495 HP               pickup truck from the stoplight a few months ago which was               great fun for a couple of old guys, but he will never               forget to be in â€œsport modeâ€ again if he sees me..Â  )         

Â          

In the many compromises we make in               building an aircraft, never forget that the engine and               prop are the powerplant.Â  The               engine supplies torque to the torque converter (propeller)               and if you are smart, a variable pitch propeller.Â  This prop choice               allows one to take every bit of power the engine can               produce for takeoff, and climb, then power down to 75% and               run a few thousand hours with the prop pulling full power               out of the available HP and Torque for cruise also.Â  HP is the rate of work, torque is the twisting force               and the twisting force/RPM is what is important for               cruise.Â  The 914               has reasonably optimized all these and with a constant               speed (or variable pitch (with higher pilot work load)) prop is not only more               efficient, but is mechanically more reliable than a fixed               or mechanically controlled wastegate.Â  Is it perfect, no, is               it overpriced, yes, and am I frustrated with their turbo               rebuild fiasco of a repair program, absolutely (a turbo               only costs about $400 to rebuild and Rotax wants you to               replace it for $8000, that is just plain greedyâ€).Â  Do I like turbo               normalization (30 inches), yes, do I like more boost               absolutely, but at what cost and reliability?Â           

Â          

For me, Iâ€™ll stick with my 914 because I               can get parts, it is easy to troubleshoot from the TCU to               the carbs and frankly just plugs onto the front of my               Europa.Â  Is it as               nice an engine as the high tech 915, no way, but the extra               stuff on the 915 doesnâ€™t really suit my aircraft or               pocketbook.Â  Performance               wise, if I want to suck on oxygen and fly at 17,500 MSL to               get 160 Kts. Vs 143 at 10,000 feet ish, it is worth it for               me to stick to the 914 rather than upgrade and change               everything on the FWF to match a different engine, then               rebalance the aircraft.Â  My               drag curve goes much more vertical above 140 Knots and               frankly, the only advantage of the 915 is rate of climb               (thatâ€™s HP or rate of work) but my top cruise increase is               going to be less spectacular for all that work, extra weight and fuel burn.Â  Ah compromises!         

Â          

Choose wisely to meet your requirements.Â  Everyone has a               different flying mission for their aircraft.Â  The stock 912S               (100HP) is a nice option for the Europa for a lower               altitude performer.Â  The               UL engine is gaining popularity (Iâ€™m still not completely               sure why, as the performance increases with most planes               isnâ€™t showing up in cruise performance, and prop               performance to match at this time is being worked out).Â  It is a well               engineered product though and impressive.Â  But is it as               maintainable over time.Â                 Time will tell.Â  Although               Airmaster has attacked that faster spinning UL issue in an               attempt to match the engine power/torque to a propeller,               as of today, results are encouraging.Â  The faster spinning               UL has only about the same torque as the Rotax 9 series.Â  The higher power               meant more cooling issues, higher octane fuel (100LL is               best) and it appears that the engine canâ€™t be lugged down               to lower RPMs most likely due to detonation, hence the               faster spinning engine (pump) must be electronically               leaned for efficiency and hence cooling rears its ugly               head.Â  The UL 350               series engine develops max torque (330nm or 230Ft/lbs.) at               about 23-2400 RPM which is 100 HP at sea level but at               about 25L/Hr. or 6.6 GPH.Â                Note the fall off of torque as RPM increases.Â  The gearbox makes a               difference in how hard you pull the RPM down vs using the               fuel to prevent detonation by running a bit richer.Â  That is not a great               leap over the 912iS or even the 912S in cruise speed, at               and the UL is at a higher fuel burn.Â  At altitude though               the HP drops significantly an any normally aspirated               engine and on the 350iS and 912iS as the fuel burn goes               down to about 17L/Hr. or 4.5 GPH.Â  Not bad and               comparable to the Rotax 912iS and 912S with a HacMan                 leaning kit. Â Â Since               2018, UL is continuing to solve all these issues as they               attempt to overcome the inefficiencies of the dinosaur               horizontally opposed air cooled engine issues in aircraft               through fuel mapping, compression ratio, and timing               controls.Â  Good on               them. Rotax was forced to catch up.Â  And did they do it               well.Â  Well, that               remains to be seen.         

Â          

The 914 like the 912/912S fits the cowl               FWF package without major issue (you got to do the cooling               work though). Â Extra               power means extra heat to dissipate.Â  The UL teething               issues are mostly from poor cowl design or execution in my               opinion which will take time and money to iron out (why               cowl flaps are not used by manufacturers I cannot               explain).Â  Too bad               as they really need an efficient cowl design for cruise to               get rid of the heat in cruise and cowl flaps in climb to               cool properly at low speed and high power.Â  In my opinion, the               airframe manufacturers seem to be indifferent to higher               power engines cooling needs and settle for all but the               most basic lower power engines requirements (i.e. it costs them money and time               and besides, the actual money is in the stock airplane               from a sales point of view).Â                         

Â          

Research is 90% of your time in selecting               an airframe and powerplant.Â                I prefer to go fly in a similarly equipped aircraft               I am considering  to build, as               I can copy or just assemble IAW the manual and achieve an               acceptable aircraft that will meet or exceed my               expectations without worry of reliability, longevity, or               parts supply.Â  As               Ira Rampil told me â€œBetter is the enemy of Goodâ€.Â  One has to raise the               issues of cost, time, talent               and services needed to go from good to better.         

Â          

Just my opinion and observations!          

Â          

Best Regards,         

Bud Yerly         

Â                     

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)               <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)               On Behalf Of William               Daniell

               Sent: Sunday,               November 13, 2022 8:42 AM

               To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

               Subject: Re:               Re: What did you do with your Europa this               week - 08/11/22         

         

Â                     

Yup - the original 2.27:1                 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster even in                 Guaymaral at 8500.Â  My previous plane a ICP Savannah                 with an Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox.Â  I had                 the ivo with the narrow blades.Â  The 914 gearbox is                 2.43:1.         

                    

Â          

                    

Theres a lot of experience with                 this conversion in Colombia - they even claim they                 turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. Â  It could be true - you                 never know with Colombia.Â  But in any case I wasnt the                 pioneer.Â  Itâ€™s a well understood process. Â  Â The chap                 who did it for me turned up all the required components                 with nicely welded stainless exhausts etc installed them                 and fired up the motor.Â  Worked ever since no faffing                 about.         

                    

Â          

                    

In any case a 914 would have                 probably been the way to go but Im a cheapskate.Â Â Or                 rather it would have cost me the price plus another 15%                 import tax raising the price to almost USD40k.Â  What                 with labor and parts my current engine cost USD25k.         

                    

Â          

                    

You dont have to mess with the                 TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel pump (you need an                 electric pump as well).Â  The mech pump will just about                 keep you flying at 22â€ MAP. Â          

                    

Â                                        

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at                     00:58 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>                     wrote:             

              	  Quote: 	
		                                  

Thanks for that Will.                       Clearly you know what you are doing as you have                       been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you                       need to change the gearbox ratio? 

                       Once you installed the turbo system, did you have                       to adjust or replace it to get it to absorb the                       power available at higher altitudes? 

                       

                       Cheers,

                       Brian Phillips.                                    

On 13/11/2022 12:33 am,                         William Daniell wrote:                 

                  	  Quote: 	
		                                          

I use up to 36â€                           although lots of people in Colombia go up to                           40â€.Â  So yes pretty much the same boost as a                           914.                   

                                        

Â                    

                                        

If you use a stock                           912 you have to add the turbo system and                           airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. Â  And                           also the oil system to feed the turbo none of                           which is unexpected.Â  A bigger main jet is                           normal. Â  Â  However the gochta is that you                           need to change the gearbox ratio and I put in                           a slipper clutch. Â  All of this can actually                           be done in a day (the exhaust and airbox are                           made beforehand.)                   

                                        

Â                    

                                        

I have a manual waste                           gate in this engine but in the previous one I                           had a simple wastegate controller like a car                   

                                        

Â                    

                                        

I flown with this                           engine since 2006 never had an issue.                   

                                        

Â                    

                                        

The turbo is from a                           Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi                   

                                        

Â                    

                                        

Nitrile gaskets on                           the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck                           air at altitude. Â                    

                                        

Â                                                                      

On Fri, Nov 11,                               2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com (barp99(at)gmail.com)>                               wrote:                       

                        	  Quote: 	
		                                                      

Thanks for that                                 Pete, good to know. As you say, too few                                 accumulated hours to build reliable                                 predictability. At least the big bore                                 kit does not need any changes to crank,                                 which is essentially the same as the 914                                 with the same output. The lighter than                                 standard pistons may even reduce crank                                 stresses. 

                                 

                                 I did look at the Viking options, I                                 could be wrong but I seem to remember                                 belt drive issues, recessed valves &                                 delivery issues. I believe the crank                                 fillets are smaller on auto engines                                 compared to A/C engines, and with the                                 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not                                 sure if this applies to the suby though.                                 I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K                                 miles, no problems, great engine.Â  

                                 

                                 William, your Columbian turbo does                                 interest me, I remember you used a                                 Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to                                 normalize or do you actually add a bit                                 more boost in? 

                                 

                                 Cheers,

                                 

                                 Brian Phillips. Â  Â                                                          

On 11/11/2022                                   10:30 pm, Pete wrote:                           

                            	  Quote: 	
		                                                              

My                                     experience conversing with Edgeâ€™s                                     principal over the years, fwiw, is                                     that he is chock full of confidence,                                     many good ideas but peppered with                                     some critical bad ones -which he                                     will not acknowledge, and lets his                                     customers â€œprove him wrongâ€. And                                     some have (ex: cracked/failed welded                                     crank). Too few accumulated hours to                                     tease out all that pepper.                             

                                                            

Â                              

                                                            

Same                                     syndrome as Jan at viking (although                                     Jan even lacks the engineering                                     basics).                             

                                                            

Â                              

                                                            

Difficult                                     to watch.                             

                                                            

Â                              

                                                            

Cheers,                             

                                                            

PeteZ                             

                                                            

                                                                                                          	  Quote: 	
		                                   

On Nov                                       11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian                                       Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> (barp99(at)gmail.com)                                       wrote:                                                                                               

ï»¿ Bud,                                       thanks very much for your well                                       laid out advice below, much                                       appreciated, your background                                       knowledge never ceases to amaze                                       me.Â  

                                       

                                       You have talked me out of the 915,                                       the thought of doing all the                                       retrofit work, along with theÂ                                        weight issues, its just not worth                                       it, and I would never finish it. I                                       am still interested in the 912Is,                                       & was thinking about the Edge                                       1484cc big bore kit. Your comments                                       below about some of the US based                                       big bore kits has got me thinking                                       again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a                                       little high, combined with no                                       detonation detection feedback                                       loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge                                       performance don't play with the                                       Rotax FI software, they supply a                                       fuel pressure reg that increases                                       the rail pressure, so the pump/s                                       are working harder, again an added                                       risk. Add to that limited                                       operational history, makes the 914                                       look an even better outcome. As                                       you say, 20,000 compromises flying                                       in close formation. 

                                       

                                       Cheers,

                                       Brian Phillips.                                                                     

On                                         11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly                                         wrote:                                 

                                  	  Quote: 	
		                                                                          

Pete,                                           as you are most aware and                                           Brian you are learning fast:                                     

Weight                                           is the enemy of an airplane.Â                                            Especially the Europa, as it                                           is a very compact aircraft.Â                                            If I add 15 horsepower, but it                                           moves the CG forward, requires                                           a prop extension and a                                           constant speed prop, the CG is                                           going to be somewhere around                                           the spinner.Â  Now we move the                                           battery back, run longer                                           heavier cables and as much                                           more to the rear as possible                                           such as autopilots, ELTs, etc.                                           to counterbalance the nose.                                           The weight just keeps going                                           up. Â The Europa XS is 100                                           pounds heavier than the                                           equivalent Europa Classic even                                           with the XS fuselage module                                           and firewall forward.Â  The 912                                           80 HP is not a spectacular                                           performer but will give 30                                           ANMPG at low altitude or with                                           a leaning device at altitudes                                           up to about 10,000 feet.                                           Cruise is in the 120-130 knot                                           range.Â  The 912S raised the                                           cruise about 5 knots more.Â                                            The 914 doubles the climb                                           rate, ups cruise to at least                                           140-145 knot range at the same                                           25 ANMPG as the 912S on a                                           tricycle gear aircraft of                                           course.Â  The mono is faster                                           and lighter of course.Â                                       

Â                                      

As I                                           learned on modifying the 914                                           to fuel injection.Â  Customers                                           moved the boost up to get more                                           power but complained it burned                                           more fuel.Â  The only advantage                                           was more power with less                                           reliability.Â  Fuel burn was                                           basically the same at 31                                           inches and 5000 RPM.Â  So, what                                           did I gain?Â  Slightly more                                           power for climb but more heat                                           to dissipate, a bigger                                           radiator and shallow climb was                                           necessary to cool.Â  BTU                                           requirements are the same for                                               the same amount of power                                           at the same fuel air ratio and                                           varies little with                                           displacement.Â  Aircraft                                           engines run at constant RPMs                                           like a marine engines, so a                                           carb is just as good as fuel                                           injection except for altitude                                           performance of a normally                                           aspirated engine with no                                           leaning.Â  The Bing stops                                           leaning after about 3500 feet                                           in the normally aspirated                                           engine.Â  So, an after market                                           leaning system is necessary                                           for the high altitude flyers                                           to improve fuel efficiency of                                           the 912/912S.Â  The Rotax 914                                           is ideal for higher altitude                                           operations and frankly ideal                                           for the Europa but at a higher                                           cost. I believe the 914                                           totally transformed the Europa                                           into a great airplane.                                           Reliability of the 914 is now                                           as good as the 912S but as we                                           all know, there are techniques                                           and inspections required to                                           keep it running like new.                                     

Â                                      

Normally                                           a 912 through the 914 will go                                           1000 hours with only carb                                           maintenance/oil changes.Â                                            Overspeed of the engine is an                                           issue many ignore.Â  The valves                                           can and do contact the piston                                           if oversped.Â  Prop strikes are                                           ignored also by many STOL                                           operators and                                           taildragger/mono.                                     

I do                                           a top overhaul at about                                           500-600 hours (gearbox, clean                                           up the valves, inspect the                                           rings/cylinders) and press                                           on.Â  Repeat at 1000 hours and                                           the engine is good to 1500                                           hours.Â  The cleanup of the                                           valves restores compression to                                           like new or better than new                                           and is really a surprise when                                           a 914 burps after only about 5                                           blades of rotation.                                     

Â                                      

I                                           have no experience with the                                           latest Edge Performance                                           engines, but I do with the so                                           called "Big Bore" engines done                                           here in the States some years                                           ago.Â  They do put out more                                           power.Â  But for how long?Â                                            Over the years the stock Rotax                                           100 HP 912S (especially the                                           new blocks) last and last.Â                                            Most of the Big Bores were                                           back in after as short as 200                                           hours.Â  But we have many                                           cowboys here in the States                                           that just want more power but                                           won't pay for it to get power                                           and reliability.Â  I was                                           around for the first of these                                           Big Bore mods.Â  As Edge                                           Performance has found out, the                                           crank shaft, and many other                                           formally robust Rotax parts                                           are now under more stress and                                           required "upgrade".Â  This                                           costs money.Â  My hats off to                                           them, as they have at least                                           backed their engines.Â  In                                           their defense, some of our                                           â€œcowboysâ€ here in the States                                           are running regular car fuel.                                           Â This causes detonation for                                           sure. I canâ€™t fix stupid!                                     

Â                                      

If                                           you need more power keep in                                           mind in general you will need                                           more gas, gain weight, reduce                                           reliability, increase                                           inspection requirements,                                           require greater cooling mass,                                           and of course add cost.Â  An                                           airplane is 20,000 compromises                                           flying in close formation.Â  If                                           you change one thing, you                                           affect 20 others.Â  Choose                                           wisely.Â                                       

Â                                      

Example:Â                                            Charts are scare still for the                                           915.                                     

5000                                           RPM wide open throttle 87 KW                                           or about 115 HP (10-20 more                                           than the 914 depending on MP                                           and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or                                           7.1GPH.Â                                       

A 20                                           HP increase on N12AY (Trigear)                                           yields a cruise speed increase                                           of nearly 10-13 Kts above                                           10,000 feet which is better                                           than most.Â                                       

However,                                           the range in Air Nautical Mile                                           per Gallon does not increase                                           it decreases from about 25                                           ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.Â                                       

Â                                      

The                                           Europa drag goes up beyond 140                                           Knots by a cube root for the                                           trigear.Â  The mono is much                                           better at still basically a                                           square root curve.Â  More                                           horsepower doesnâ€™t give me                                           impressive efficiency or                                           speed.                                     

Â                                      

The                                           914 fits easily in the Europa                                           XS, will cool, accepts a                                           constant speed prop without                                           issue or added extensions, has                                           a reasonable fuel burn and                                           will get you to 10,000 feet in                                           about 11-13 minutes in a                                           cruise climb.Â  I can put out                                           70 to 95 horsepower continuous                                           for cruise (typically 140-145                                           for a trigear) or max speed.Â                                            Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore                                           require the same octane fuel                                           as the 914 so no advantage.Â                                            The 914 turbo takes care of                                           most of the issues with                                           density altitude, it allows                                           the Bing to work ideally from                                           cruise to max continuous from                                           the surface to service ceiling                                           (which is well above 25,000                                           which is our human                                           physiological limit without                                           cabin pressurization).Â  We                                           know how to maintain it, the                                           TCU has been modified and I                                           can setup, troubleshoot or                                           simply run a data dump from my                                           laptop running Windows 7                                           through 10 without a special                                           dongle.Â  I donâ€™t have Windows                                           11 yet, but it should work                                           also.Â  Carbs are easy to                                           balance, and the installation                                           manual is easy to follow.Â                                            Always follow the engine                                           installation manual in                                           conjunction with the airframe                                           firewall forward manual .                                     

Â                                      

The                                           915 was never designed to fit                                           a standard Rotax engine mount                                           and does not fit most                                           experimental aircraft firewall                                           forwards.Â  Extensive work is                                           necessary to retrofit the 915                                           to a 912/914 airframe.Â  The                                           915 is unmaintainable but for                                           plugs and oil change without a                                           â€œbudsâ€ system for the average                                           owner to tell you what itâ€™s                                           doing but the troubleshooting                                           manual is a bit sparce.Â  Much                                           study and patience is needed                                           as the 915 goes through its                                           teething issues.Â  It runs lean                                           on the ground like the 912iS                                           and will overheat easily                                           during an extended taxi out.Â                                            Automatic systems means you                                           the pilot lose control.Â  Many                                           912iS owners hate the power                                           drop off and find economy only                                           comes through lower power.Â                                            They have found fuel burn is                                           the same for the same speed                                           after an engine change from                                           the S to the iS.Â  The 915 has                                           a similar issue with the power                                           requirements.Â  It is not like                                           hopping into your BMW tubo and                                           everything works.Â  It is still                                           like the 1980â€™s first gen fuel                                           injection and turbo mods.Â                                            Today it all works flawlessly                                           in our autos, but with larger                                           cooling requirements and                                           components taking up more                                           space under the hood.Â  The 915                                           is not quite a plug and play                                           engine electrically either.Â                                            Look at Sling and their                                           learning curve.Â  The 4 place                                           needs 140-150 HP.Â  The two                                           place not so much.Â  Guys are                                           looking hard at the                                           difference.                                     

Â                                      

In                                           summary, the Europa was                                           designed for about 100HP                                           engines of light weight.Â  It                                           is fast and efficient for a                                           100HP 500 pound payload                                           airplane.Â  More weight makes                                           the induced drag go up.Â  The                                           mono airframe was not designed                                           to go faster than about 170                                           KTAS at 20,000 feet at an                                           empty weight of 900 pounds.Â                                            If you go above 900 pounds                                           empty weight, the plane gets                                           sluggish, speed drops and                                           range is decreased.Â  In the                                           States, a 1000 mile per day                                           range airplane is essential                                           for getting around west of the                                           Mississippi river. For my snow                                           birds coming from Canada to                                           Florida for the winter, they                                           need that range also.Â                                            Frankly, a bigger engine makes                                           for shorter hops, less                                           payload, and a longer day.Â                                            Â More horsepower is not as                                           important as more torque.Â                                            Torque turns the prop, HP just                                           makes it spin up faster.                                     

Â                                      

Keep                                           it light, keep it simple, and                                           it will be a trouble-free                                           steed with stock components.Â                                            Work on drag reduction and                                           keeping the weight down.Â  Not                                           by slapping more horsepower,                                           weight, complexity, and cost                                           on a very small airframe.Â                                       

Â                                      

Just                                           my thoughtsâ€¦.                                     

Â                                      

Best                                           Regards,                                     

Bud                                           Yerly                                     

Â                                      

-----Original                                           Message-----

                                           From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                           <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                                           On Behalf Of Pete

                                           Sent: Thursday, November 10,                                           2022 6:59 AM

                                           To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                                           Subject: Re: Re:                                           What did you do with your                                           Europa this week - 08/11/22                                     

Â                                      

-->                                           Europa-List message posted by:                                           Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>                                     

Â                                      

â€¦.except                                           for the concerns of Edge                                           welded cranks (cracking), and                                           single point of failure (FI).                                     

Cheers,                                     

PeteZ                                     

Â                                      

Â                                      

 	  Quote: 	
		                                             On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM,                                           Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                                           wrote:                                     

                                                                                

                                           ï»¿--> Europa-List message                                           posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>                                     

                                                                                

                                           Brian the Edge Performance                                           engines are worth looking at                                           if forward mass is a                                           concern... the Gen4 6cyl                                           Jabiru is said to finally be                                           showing reliability but i                                           would still choose Edge over                                           Jabiru                                     

                                                                                

                                                                                

                                                                                

                                                                                

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