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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219
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 Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 11:10 am Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Interesting. Is 75kts your Vy? I find my Vy (Classic wings, ULS) slightly higher to the extent that 6litres/hr is only possible closer to 83knts.
Duncan McF.
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Neither Vy or Vx...
75kt is my loiter speed in calm air; flaps and undercarriage retracted.. setting the rpm at 3900 the aircraft will tootle along happily once trimmed; at 3800rpm it will tootle along at 70kt and is just starting to feel a little bit mushy but still quite stable with one up.
80kt on climb out at 5000rpm returns 1600fpm at 500' AMSL and seems to be the Vy so far... with an 80hp tuned to 14.5 stoich on 98RON pump fuel.
Still need to do some upper air work to see what Vx actually is; power on stall is 53kt; so Vx is probably going be seen at around 60kt in dead calm air.
The flaps are about 1deg extended when retracted, and the ailerons are about 1/2deg positive at neutral; so this would be affecting the flight characteristics of the wing at various velocities. Not sure if John had intentionally set things up like that; he had a valid reason for all his mods when building.
Prop pitch is fixed at 21deg. Bolly 3 blade, and unstick off grass field happens at about 150m and about 60m on tarmac into 10kt headwind has been shortest roll out so far.
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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:39 am Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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"Tuning For Speed"
That was my second year (age 12 at high school) book prize (in the days that we had "Speech Days" and prize-givings, when we were allowed to be recognised as not being ordinary)!
Duncan mcF
do not archive
| Quote: | On 26 December 2022 at 04:06 Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Totally agree with the article... give me 12 or 36 cylinders any day of the week... and this article is exactly why engine rpm frequency is mentioned in my above commentary.
In simple terms the enlightened engine operator is looking for the rpm load setting factor that offsets these cylinder firing pulses against the combined resistance load (torque requested) and centrifugal momentum inertia of all internal moving components whether 1 or 36 cylinder format... there may generally be three or even four rpm points where this will occur for each individual engine and these points are fugitive based upon the changeable factors of fuel, air, temperature, and mechanical clearances between moving components. This why the enlightened engine operator is able to quickly discern an out-of-tune state on a perfectly turned and balanced engine.
This is why, from experience and understanding, extended running of the engine at 4800rpm, 3800rpm, 1600rpm, 800rpm is not any concern for me. These are the harmonic frequencies of this individual engine for its set tuned state and minimal stressed points. If the engine is not singing the above factors are not synchronised; things will simply wear out sooner...
If i want to set the above engine for 5200rpm then it will need further bench work on the breathing because at 5200rpm it aint singing at all.
A good place to start for anybody wanting to understand the totality of internal combustion engines is "Tuning For Speed" - Phil Irving, anybody that says they know stuff doesnt really know stuff unless they know this book cover to cover. Its one of my loaded questions when sourcing a suitable engine builder that i have no prior experience dealing with.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509790#509790
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:39 am Post subject: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Awesome!!
Unfortunately i was not lucky enough to know whether i ever did meet him personally... i know of a few people that did though. He was a very unique person... while i was playing with vintage race bikes Marc told me a story about an outing with his Vincent. Phil Irving walked up to Marc's pristine example unannounced, "what a lovely looking bike", then spun the brake and clutch lever around on the handlebars to Marc's horror... "WTF" from Marc's mouth is a polite description... Phil didn't care. He just turned to Marc and said "that's why the handlebars are painted and not chromed"... long story short an apology was quickly present when he learned he was about to smack Irving in the head; Marc shut up and learned a lot; they became good friends...
Les was a very unassuming humble guy... inside his shed though were the rarest of rare ferrari, and other stuff. they were sent to him from all over the world to restore.. Phil taught Les how to build ferrari engines to run really well... I would take Les a bag of fresh hand picked oranges each winter and we would talk about engines and suspension.
My father handed down a first edition copy to me; i still have it... to this day i have not yet come across a book that transcends Irving's bible.
Phil had the ability to explain something in just a couple of sentences when everyone else delivered a lecture or novel that was lost in the wind.
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Mallard
Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:46 am Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue Top Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top model which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JohnFrance" <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn’t use them in the gearbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:57 am Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Indeed 2strokes are much more benign wrt reverse torque pulses vs the hellish 4cyl 4stroke, on which “aircraft gearboxes are hard”. 
| Quote: | On Dec 27, 2022, at 9:53 AM, James <james(at)kingdom.ie> wrote:
I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue Top Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top model which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JohnFrance" <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn’t use them in the gearbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
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Mallard
Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Pete,
My 914 swings an Airmaster CS prop. Do you know what rpm setting(s) I should avoid?
Thanks
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:06:08 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
….And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep the revs out of the resonance bands.
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
> Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>
> The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly 😊
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> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Sorry i don’t. But i can tell you that my heavy fixed pitch warpdrive beat up my box below 5200.
Cheers,
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Dec 27, 2022, at 4:31 PM, James <james(at)kingdom.ie> wrote:
Pete,
My 914 swings an Airmaster CS prop. Do you know what rpm setting(s) I should avoid?
Thanks
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:06:08 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
….And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep the revs out of the resonance bands.
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
> Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>
> The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly 😊
>
>
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>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
>
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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:16 am Post subject: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Depends on numerous variables including the prevailing friction level in the gearbox.
With the original Warp Drive mine had a zone of "unhappiness" centred around 4400rpm, so that band was always avoided. Later with an Arplast Ecoprop (fixed pitch, about the same or greater inertia as the WD) that disappeared. Ditto with a still later and so much smoother E-Props (fixed pitch). But the earlier "unhappiness" might alternately have been blade resonance, or light detonation??
With a recently installed new engine (and the E-Props), 5000rpm has become the "happiest" band; but still exploring.
Duncan McF
"...in feet up and having a beer" mode. All subjective.
On 27 December 2022 at 21:25 James <james(at)kingdom.ie> wrote:
| Quote: | Pete,
My 914 swings an Airmaster CS prop. Do you know what rpm setting(s) I should avoid?
Thanks
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:06:08 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
….And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep the revs out of the resonance bands.
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
> Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>
> The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly 😊
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
>
>
>
>
>
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>
============== Europa-List Email Forum - gator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ============== - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com ============== - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - tp://wiki.matronics.com ============== - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ution">https://matronics.com/contribution ==============
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 285
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:07 am Post subject: What did you do with your Europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Pete,
You have every right to be upset with the 912S.
Before about 2005 I wouldn't put one on an airplane. It was just not ready for prime time.
High compression, fixed ignition and a low torque starter was a bad combination. Systems issues such as, fixed ignition, poor auto gas choices by customers, exhaust systems that couldn't stand up to the harsh vibration so they cracked, shifted, leaked, springs broke off and frankly it was scary to start and shut down as it would kick back violently. It had a harsh area around 3500 RPM that could not be tuned out. As you found in some engines by going to a light prop, the engine seemed to be smoother. But there is more to the story.
The early 912S would rather run backwards on start than forward. The starter wouldn't even hit 300 RPM in the cold due to its low torque, sprag clutches were destroyed ( give me a Bendix any day) and gear boxes clattered because of bad timing and valve overlap choices (my thoughts anyway). I wouldn't put one on a plane unless the owner insisted.
I could get one to idle and run smoothly but min idle was 1800. At start when cold you had to run at 2200-2500 until warm. If you tried to tune down to 1600 or so the one or more cylinders would actually pre-ignite due to the timing and shake worse than any hotrod engine as one or more cylinder would fire well before TDC at idle. Anyone trying to start one had to use one ignition, a fully charged battery, and new 92+ octane fuel to have a chance of it not running backwards or encountering violent kickback. Bearings and flanges inside supporting the crank shaft were failing, and engine short blocks were trashed. Carbs were not balancing well and engine shaking actually wore out the pistons in the carb bodies. Many had to throw their carbs away and get a new matched set.
Upset customers began to curse their engine after having to buy new exhausts, new ignition systems (soft start), higher torque starters, and sometimes two new carburetors. Costing them nearly 1/3 the cost of the original engine. Many blamed the prop mass (as did Rotax as we all know it couldn't possibly be their Teutonic engineering) but frankly it was the engine. It needed work.
By roughly 2005 ignition and starting woes were mostly corrected, but CKT had to make extensive changes to their exhaust systems to get a system robust enough to hold up to the vibration, and not leak or crack. Springs were a problem until about 2010 when they made their own stainless springs on nice clean mandrels. Rotax made slight changes to the engine that escaped most of us (Teutonic secrecy). Finally, Rotax beefed up the bearing supports, flanges and the through bolt bosses were made larger clearing the case cracking and the cocked bearing / high friction issues. It still has an issue of higher vibrations due to the compression increase and fixed ignition though. At least the more robust block helped keep it more reliable.
Today the new 912S is tolerable. But it was a long messy period. Rotax blamed the props were too heavy, bad gas, owner servicing and running issues in the gearbox clatter area, but frankly the engine was rushed into production without full testing in my opinion.
912 (80HP) owners simply shrugged their shoulders at the 912S owners and soldiered on with their engine running and operating just fine although low octane and cold winter starts were tough. The Classic Europa FWF would not accept the larger high torque starters to help them start in the cold. However, everything was and is smoother on the low compression 80 HP engine. Of course, it can only swing a tapered blade prop of no more than 64 inches so most folks in the States wouldn't use it. My Canadian friends put long tapered blade Warp Drive props on the 80 HP engine but had to pitch it so low that speed was disgusting, however takeoff was OK so small light floatplanes got by with it.
The early 914 had some of the same issues. By 2005 the 914 became quite trouble free but you had to know the systems. Once you learned the tricks and tips, it ran and still runs great. New carbs, new updated TCU, and a high torque starter greatly aided my engine. At 500 hours I had an overspeed (my fault) and had Lockwood open up mine and do a top overhaul and gearbox rebuild. It still looks like a new engine inside and meets specifications. 4 valves were impacted, and I insisted they be changed and all of them lapped and the compressions are like new. But it cost about $3300 to have the cylinders pulled, heads and valves cleaned up and the gearbox rebuilt. Not bad when compared to a Lycoming at 500 hours. But before that I spent another $3000 over the first 10 years on the high torque starter, new TCU, and Carbs. All well worth it.
As Walter Hudson (an old AI in our area (award winning builder also)) always said "You know what keeps an airplane airborne? MONEY!"
If you do all the recommended and advisory stuff, like the improved ignition, high torque starter, proper carb balance and service and proper fuel, it keeps the engine running well. Your opinion is it was the prop, but I believe it may have been the combination of updates and repairs to the engine that did most of it. Change one thing at a time and then evaluate is normal in testing but if the engine, dogs, gearbox, ignition, and carb tune are all done at once as well as a prop change, who knows for sure. A rough running engine will damage itself and its systems. My old timers always prefer a light wood prop as it was always smoother as the wood absorbs vibration. Metal and carbon don't dampen the vibration as well. Hence a static and dynamic balance is necessary with these hard props. If the engine is still harsh, it most likely is internal issues.
I've never had an issue in 20 years with prop masses below 6000kg/cm on any Rotax. I have had and seen Rotax 912S issues due to all the issues mentioned above. Once those issues were fixed, I put the original prop back on and behold, the engine ran smoothly. Maybe I was just lucky all these years.
Never over look a bad prop blade. Many folks have brought prop vibration issues to my attention. I’ve found blade fatigue, unmatched blades, pitch slippage on ground adjustable props, and many that were not statically balanced. A prop that is not statically balanced will not dynamically balance. I show folks on my website what I do to statically balance an Airmaster Warp Drive, Sensenich etc. before I mount it. One blade off by a ¼ of a degree on a three blade prop puts a lot of vibrations at your prop flange as the prop is roughly said “corkscrewing” itself through the air. This is frustrating for many owners so they change props and frankly they should.
I'm glad you are now seeing a light at the end of the tunnel on your engine/prop. I know my original 914 had me scratching my head also, but now I know what I need to do on my engine. I added a light weight prop to test and frankly I have no difference in engine behavior on the 914. It just made the nose lighter. A two blade makes oil changes faster as the cowl drops off easier on a trigear.
Happy Flying,
Bud Yerly
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