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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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 Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:32 pm Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Well, now that flying the europa is starting to become a bit more second nature, do we make it more enjoyable to fly?
Really don't enjoy the noise of a racing bike any more; so its time to shut those fricken carburettors up!
Today has been a day of distraction, instead of fitting new hydraulic hoses to some heavy machinery, and there's nothing better than playing with a europa..
The plenum box has been extracted and Cad'd up to analyse its flow and acoustic aspects; its basically currently acting as a fantastic resonator boosting induction noise straight through the firewall.
Today has been spent looking at Mass Flow and Dynamic Pressure through the assembly at 6000rpm WOT.
The target objective will be implementing passive noise attenuation features to mitigate carburettor induction noise ingress to the cockpit.
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:26 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Stage one of "shut that noise up" completed.
Applied a dense OEM sound absorbing material made by Diver Consolidated Industries; also acts as a secondary low temp heat shield... Not for the novice. It uses a magic 3M adhesive back. You get one chance sticking it down, and it cannot be removed to reposition... then give it a good going over with a roller; done... has added 1kg up from 560g to the plenum.
The only way carbi noise is getting out of there now is through the air filter.
Will try it out tomorrow and listen if Stage 2 baffles are still required.
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:14 am Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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an added risk of ingestion.
worth it?
Cheers,
PeteZ
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 5:33 AM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]
goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
Stage one of "shut that noise up" completed.
Applied a dense OEM sound absorbing material made by Diver Consolidated
Industries; also acts as a secondary low temp heat shield... Not for the
novice. It uses a magic 3M adhesive back. You get one chance sticking it
down, and it cannot be removed to reposition... then give it a good going
over with a roller; done... has added 1kg up from 560g to the plenum.
The only way carbi noise is getting out of there now is through the air
filter.
Will try it out tomorrow and listen if Stage 2 baffles are still required
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:16 am Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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oops..... didn't look at the pics - my bad. only on the outside....
please forgive me
PeteZ
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 6:13 AM Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | an added risk of ingestion.
worth it?
Cheers,
PeteZ
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 5:33 AM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Stage One of "shut that noise up" has been a flying success!!!
Worth every one of the 1000g weight penalty; couldn't recommend it more.
The mod has worked so well that noise canceling is no longer required.. in fact, its worse now flying with noise canceling than without... at WOT engine noise has gone from high pitched screaming hell to a dull drone... at cruise you could have a cockpit conversation without headphones; its just so much more relaxing and enjoyable... over the moon with the result...
Weight & Balance has been affected by moving the CG more forward; with 10L fuel the cg crosses the forward boundary.. so i just have to t/o with 50L on board to balance out closer to center.
Planning on adding a bit more aft weight so not too concerned.
Will still apply Stage 2 internal baffles to shut things up even more...
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:27 pm Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Interesting. So you no longer hear the engine revs, but now “only” the significant hear whine and prop noises?
| Quote: | On Mar 15, 2023, at 7:18 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Stage One of "shut that noise up" has been a flying success!!!
Worth every one of the 1000g weight penalty; couldn't recommend it more.
The mod has worked so well that noise canceling is no longer required.. in fact, its worse now flying with noise canceling than without... at WOT engine noise has gone from high pitched screaming hell to a dull drone... at cruise you could have a cockpit conversation without headphones; its just so much more relaxing and enjoyable... over the moon with the result...
Weight & Balance has been affected by moving the CG more forward; with 10L fuel the cg crosses the forward boundary.. so i just have to t/o with 50L on board to balance out closer to center.
Planning on adding a bit more aft weight so not too concerned.
Will still apply Stage 2 internal baffles to shut things up even more...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510421#510421
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/41987b1f_3b7a_4d4e_9041_f862d99c8ffe_994.jpeg
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Experience is now a low frequency drone from exhaust along with slight level of low frequency carburettor noise; so can still hear the engine and gearbox, its just not a high frequency or high volume level.
At cruise the noise volume of engine and air over the canopy is about equal.
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:36 pm Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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“ At cruise the noise volume of engine and air over the canopy is about equal.”
…which is what i have with the stockish plenum, and softer lord mounts fwiw.
I wonder what id get if i wrapped my plenum too.
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Mar 15, 2023, at 8:29 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Experience is now a low frequency drone from exhaust along with slight level of low frequency carburettor noise; so can still hear the engine and gearbox, its just not a high frequency or high volume level.
At cruise the noise volume of engine and air over the canopy is about equal.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510423#510423
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Peter, the material functions by absorbing specific high and low frequency waves of the audible spectrum; its material design purpose is for eliminating resonance drumming on automotive panels.
The plenum box on 181 is very thin fibreglass, so its like a drum skin stock untreated.
Everyone's ears will respond somewhat differently to sound waves, so results will be perceived differently.
The quality or density of the Lord mounts will also affect transfer of vibration through the airframe; but this will be low frequency noise... Modern fluid filled engine mounts totally eliminate vibrational transference of modal and audial frequencies across mounting frames.
Discounting harmonics the modal frequencies will be equal an array of mechanical torsional oscillations pulses and gear teeth meshing at variable rpm.
I'm unable to comment upon the majority of individuals out there that realise just how much sound comes from an engine's induction system other than i think it is not broad; most may just say "that vehicle is loud"...
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:30 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Area-51,
Great feedback and thanks for sharing. Could you share more details, such as specifications, on the soundproofing material and the 3M adhesive used. I searched for Driver Consolidated Industries (DCI) and 3M Magic Tape and found nothing.
Let us know how your stage 2 effort pans out.
I love my Europa except for, as you describe and I have done too, the "Screaming from Hell"! I am going to try this right away since if it is as you describe my Europa will go from "Great" to "Fantastic".
Since I am going to take my airplane apart for painting I was considering installing a Firewall Blanket to reduce the screaming. I wonder if anyone has done this, results, and if positive materials used.
Best,
Chris
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:33 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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A-51,
I have this material that I purchased a while back in an attempt to use something to reduce the noise in the cockpit. I never used it because this stuff is like lead in sheets. Incredibly heavy at 0.7 lb/sqft (3.4 kg/sqm), if I did the converting right. But it looks like it is what you used. I include a picture of what I got. It's a butyl based insulation with foil. About 80mil (2mm) thick. Is this close (at least in thickness) to what you used?
Chris
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:52 am Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Just wondering out loud: extra unsupported weight/mass on the carbs?
| Quote: | On Mar 16, 2023, at 11:49 AM, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm so excited about this I will go now to the hangar and work on it with the material I have  . If it needs to be thicker I can always add a layer but I think this is what you used. Will report back.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510431#510431
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:23 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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A-51,
Does your CFD show the ideal location for the carb vents in the plenum? Should be as close to a stagnant velocity point as possible I would guess. Does your analysis take into consideration some pressure buildup due to the ram air intake.
In my plenum they are located about as far from the top as in yours but further outboard, more or less in line with the carb intake axis.
Chris
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dmac7
Joined: 05 Apr 2019
Posts: 48
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:25 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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That is light weight sound reduction product at 0.7 lbs sqf. If it works on the firewall please post results.
Dad spent many thousands of hours flying in the western Canadian Arctic behind a variety of aircraft that were rather loud but the worst was his Helio Courier with its gear driven Lycoming G0-435 he found a good solution though with adhesive foam & .010 lead at 6 lbs sqf. it was much heavier than the product you have but it made the geared Lycoming seem almost silent.
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:34 am Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Cool story. I guess that to me this stuff seems heavy. I did have a 1964 Mooney that I removed the sound deadening material from the thin fwd fuselage aluminum skin. It was so lout that it would overpower the ANR headset I had back then and make it squeal during take off until power and prop RPM was brought back a little.
I got the plenum out and will be doing the covering it today. The firewall I will do after I take the engine out to facilitate painting. Still don't know what to do there. I may use the "heavy" stuff I have for the metal firewall section (mono) since I heard that part could be a big contributor to noise going into the cabin. I also have plans to install a monowheel fairing (only in front of the wheel), not for speed, but to keep turbulent air from the wheel well and see if noise comes down a little. But may consider doing a blanket for the composite firewall if I get some positive feedback from the group.
I really want to make my Europa quiet. If I can do that this will be the perfect airplane. Biggest issue I have is I don't have interior paneling. I may create a couple small panels for the lower forward section of the sides and maybe top. The baggage compartment will stay bare.
Chris
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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Ok, an update from this morning's second test flight...
Today was magic; perfect conditions and zero wind; was up in the air just after sunrise; and experienced even more brilliant results... Today I got to use my TSO'd Clarity Aloft in ear comms without any bit of challenge from external noise (i have never been able to use these in the europa); they are actually better to use now than the Bose Active X; even on WOT the Clarity Aloft volume was set at about 30%.. the aircraft flight experience is now like cruising down the highway in a wonderful 60's british sports car... it takes a lot to impress me, and i am beyond impressed; the aircraft is just such a joy to be in now.
The conditions were so good today i tootled around at 70kt for 75minutes and burnt a whopping 6Lt of fuel... 😂😂😂
Chris, the product you pictured is the same spec, and its "Diver Consolidate Industries" in victoria australia, google for "DCI Heat Shielding", try emailing Wayne, he will fill you in on how to correctly use this product. For something like a 60's mustang rear quarter you only need a 4x12 inch strip to stop the panel drumming. There are other lighter DCI products for noise attenuation.
Regarding the compensation tube positioning; any position 1.5" toward the center of the plenum box away from the carbi induction port will be in static atmospheric conditions and away from induction affects.
The plenum box rests upon the top of the undercarriage spaceframe posts and backface firewall; it could be 50kg and still not cause any stress upon the bing carbi mounts.
If you are going to use this product practice on a few unimportant things first; when i say "you cannot remove it too reposition" i really mean it! And the external foil will tear easily with sharp objects; use a lino print roller to finish hand applying and smoothing out; wipe down fiberglass with prepsol first. Drill your threaded holes from the inside out last... paper or cardboard stencils are required to lay on the flat sheet to cut out; add a 10mm boundary for trimming off as you go.
As is the mod has sent hell screaming back to where it fricken came from!
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm Post subject: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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70knts? Mine would be plowing like motorboat offplane lol.
Fwiw, my classic’s airbox is free of touching anything but the carbs.
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Mar 16, 2023, at 6:34 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, an update from this morning's second test flight...
Today was magic; perfect conditions and zero wind; was up in the air just after sunrise; and experienced even more brilliant results... Today I got to use my TSO'd Clarity Aloft in ear comms without any bit of challenge from external noise; they are actually better to use now than the Bose Active X; even on WOT the Clarity Aloft volume was set at about 30%.. the aircraft flight experience is now like cruising down the highway in a wonderful 60's british sports car... it takes a lot to impress me, and i am beyond impressed; the aircraft is just such a joy to be in now.
The conditions were so good today i tootled around at 70kt for 75minutes and burnt a whopping 6Lt of fuel... 😂😂😂
Chris, the product you pictured is the same spec, and its "Diver Consolidate Industries" in victoria australia, google for "DCI Heat Shielding", try emailing Wayne, he will fill you in on how to correctly use this product. For something like a 60's mustang rear quarter you only need a 4x12 inch strip to stop the panel drumming. There are other lighter DCI products for noise attenuation.
Regarding the compensation tube positioning; any position 1.5" toward the center of the plenum box away from the carbi induction port will be in static atmospheric conditions and away from induction affects.
The plenum box rests upon the top of the undercarriage spaceframe posts and backface firewall; it could be 50kg and still not cause any stress upon the bing carbi mounts.
As is the mod has sent hell screaming back to where it fricken came from!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510447#510447
Attachments:
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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😂😂, i had it trimmed out nicely at 65kt at a few stages at 3600rpm but the prop was starting to unload too much.
http://www.dci.com.au/services/thermal_acoustic_shielding
They will have a US and Eu distributor...
Peter, personally, from a material's fatigue perspective i would be concerned about the flexible carbi mounts ability to support the added mass under extended rough air or idling situations. Although lineal movement is small the mass inertia may at times be 6g-10g; multiply this by a factor of xthousand cycles and premature failure might occur; a carbi separation will ruin your day... probably better to support the airbox and use a 50mm id silicone hose as an interconnect and secondary carbi inertia absorbing support
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: the Obsidian Files - So Much Noise!!! |
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For treating firewall areas i would not use the butyl matting product... there is a much lighter "QS-SLIM" product in the DCI line that is a polyester weave with 3M adhesive and foil shielding; it's primarily a medium level heat shield and acoustic isolator for OEM automotive under roof paneling; weighs almost nothing and is perfect for the firewall and upper engine cowl lid... it can be purchased direct in 1000x1000 size sheets.
http://m.dciperformance.com.au/products/view/id:767/title:QS+Slim
http://m.dciperformance.com.au/products/view/id:770/title:QS+Diamond
* The butyl matting is not a fully fire retardant material; it will ignite given the right conditions, so read the spec sheet before implementing .
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