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Kelvin Weston
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Hampshire, UK
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:30 pm Post subject: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi All
I recently purchased new MT04 engine mounts from Europa.
However, on examination, I noticed that the bolt hole and the raised ring that locates in the engine frame are not in the centre of the rubber mount.
You might be able to see this in the picture. My concern is they might result in misalignment of the rear of the engine frame in relation to the landing gear frame.
Replacement of the mounts is not an easy task, so I have contacted both Europa and the LAA for advice.
Europa have informed me they are aware of this problem and are investigating with the supplier.
However, they have also stated that they have issued five sets in a similar condition to other owners and as far as they are aware the non-concentricity of the rubber mounts has not posed a problem.
I would therefore be very interested to make contact with any owners that were issued or have fitted these non-concentric mounts to discuss any problems encountered.
Email address below or send me a PM.
Many thanks.
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_________________
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.co.uk |
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi Kelvin,
I have no experience on a situation such as yours but since options may be limited for you, unless you switch to the Lord engine mounts (and I guess in the UK that may not be easy), then I would try to install them an see how it feels in terms of how much force will be needed to install them.
From the pictures I assume that the ring you refer too and the hole are concentric, so it is possible that the holes will end up in the right place with only the outside of the rubber pushing against the socket in the mount.
If the holes do end up moving slightly off center, make sure that they are all not clocked exactly in the same position or the engine will be displaced slightly. Try to set each on a different position like 45-135-225-315 to that the engine ends up centered.
Again, you may hear an opposing opinion but if I was out of options then this is what I would try if the forces to line things up are not excessive. And I would inspect the rubber mounts on a more often until you can get better ones.
And again, in the UK maybe you can't do something like this.
Chris
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Davidcripps
Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:49 pm Post subject: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hello Kelvin
I am one of those other Europa customers for the MT04 and have also seen, and commented to Europa, about this eccentricity.
Because they are quite ‘squashy’, once they are in place I don’t think it makes any real difference to the engine alignment as I think they largely even themselves out across the four corners. There is also, of course, the vertical and sideways alignment that can be controlled by the number of washers you put between the spacers in the engine mount and the aircraft end of the frame. I have a Classic and found that the washers have a very critical impact on how close the fuel pump, and its spigots, get to the starboard radiator. It’s all extremely tight in there and one washer’s thickness can make all the difference!
However, although I wouldn’t be so worried about the overall alignment, as you’ll know, getting the mounts into place is not an easy task!
The biggest issue I found is that it was hard to ensure that the inside ‘ring’ of the rubber of the mounts remained fully engaged in the innermost hole of the engine mounts from both sides. The mounts tended to want to pop out very easily as they didn’t sit comfortably or easily in the engine mount holes but only stayed there with some degree of ‘tension’. This meant that the slightest degree of sideways ‘knock’ while inserting the bolts etc made them pop out. Just tightening up the bolts and hoping for the best risked snagging and distorting that inner rubber ring and this is what had happened on one of the mounts I had removed so maybe this eccentricity has been going on for a while.
I did the job on my own but it would have been much easier with another pair of hands to hold the rubbers properly in place while the bolts were inserted. It might also help to hold the rubbers tightly in place in the frame with insulating tape while assembling and then remove the tape once the bolts are in.
Feel free to give me a call to discuss if you’d like.
I finally have the whole engine back in, reconnected and have done initial engine runs. Now waiting for inspector before I can fly again.
Best regards
David Cripps
G-BWJH
| Quote: | On 24 Jul 2023, at 08:35, Kelvin Weston <kelv(at)kdweston.co.uk> wrote:
Hi All
I recently purchased new MT04 engine mounts from Europa.
However, on examination, I noticed that the bolt hole and the raised ring that locates in the engine frame are not in the centre of the rubber mount.
You might be able to see this in the picture. My concern is they might result in misalignment of the rear of the engine frame in relation to the landing gear frame.
Replacement of the mounts is not an easy task, so I have contacted both Europa and the LAA for advice.
Europa have informed me they are aware of this problem and are investigating with the supplier.
However, they have also stated that they have issued five sets in a similar condition to other owners and as far as they are aware the non-concentricity of the rubber mounts has not posed a problem.
I would therefore be very interested to make contact with any owners that were issued or have fitted these non-concentric mounts to discuss any problems encountered.
Email address below or send me a PM.
Many thanks.
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv(at)kdweston.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511137#511137
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_mounts_931.jpg
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brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:03 am Post subject: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi Kelvin
Just for interest, can you explain why you are changing the mounts and what
is the condition of the ones you removed?
Regards
Brian Davies
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Kelvin Weston
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:31 am Post subject: Re: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi Brian
My Europa is not flying yet and as the original mounts supplied with the kit were 12+ years old, I decided it would be prudent to replace with new items when I fitted the engine.
A set was purchased from Karen at Europa back in late 2018 and fitted with the engine in 2022. In the short space of time since installation (14 months) the engine has pitched down several degrees with very slight but visible uneven compression of the engine mount rubbers, fore & aft (pics attached). A similar situation (albeit reversed) exists on the lower mounts.
This is further evident by the spinner being displaced from its original position against the cowling.
I checked the spacer length which was correct at 45mm so I was then concerned that the rubber was too soft. I know from the forum that there had been similar problems in the past.
Hence the recent purchase of another set of MT04s from Europa, only to find they had been poorly manufactured. Incidentally, Europa has assured me that my 2018 replacements were not from the defective ‘soft’ batch and that the 2018 items and the recently supplied mounts were both well within the hardness tolerance.
I am sure the engine will have a tendency to ‘settle’ on any new mounts fitted and I would be interested to know from other owners if the ‘settling’ and differential compression in the picture is normal.
If so, I may just re-shim with washers and move on.
I am also almost tempted to fit my original, unused (now 15 years old) mounts that have been stored in a plastic bag, out of sunlight, heat and oil, etc that look perfect, feel slightly harder and are perfectly concentric !!!
I am waiting a response from Tom at Europa and the LAA, but if I do fit the latest items, my original plan (as Chris has stated above) was to orientate the mounts with the thicker offset of each mount pointing out towards each corner of the engine frame. I believe this will even out any possible misalignment at the rear of the engine, I can then re-shim the washers to get the angles and spinner correct,
However, my concern is getting the raised ring to locate correctly in the engine frame.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.co.uk |
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:19 am Post subject: Re: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi Kelvin
FWIW I made up some clamps to hold mounts in place, made for easy install:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ah1S270Nwg9VgoRx4Xz0YQSao28z8Q?e=b02rSh
I also made up some slotted spacers out of home plumbing pipe strap cut with a tin snip. EZ PZ to add or take away spacers in situation, then measure and install washers the same width.
I used torque for the AN sized bolt used for mounting and ended up crushing the spacers. I think Europa used to use thicker spacers made out of stronger stainless, now they are using just a thinner wall tube. Don't tighten the bolts too much! I ended up making spacers out of 4130 and a bit thicker. I tested one of the 4130 spacers in a vise and broke the bolt with no crush of the spacer. I tested the mush metal Europa spacers, boy you don't need much to crush them.
My motor mount on our XS Mono didn't align too good with UCMF. I was able to assemble it, but mushed and pushed things so it made the motor mount look like your offset ones a bit! If I had your offset mounts, I would assemble using them to better align things without so much mushing and pushing.
If you have a Mono, I imagine you would replace your bungee? If you do, I left a tail of bungee to make tightening easier and also added some extra loop/s. I forget how many, you can count. Also the rear mounting nut's that have cotter pins are a pain to get to to remove. I added a length of safety wire to make future removal easier.
Here's the folder link:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ah1S270Nwg9VyHfneXbuyPfZHtAk?e=03hHN0
Ron P.
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Peter pender
Joined: 15 Jan 2021
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: MT04 Engine Mounts |
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Hi Kelvin,
May I suggest that you allow for a bit of sag initially as like you I had some old isolation rubbers that I replaced with new a short time before first flight and have since had to shim them twice in about 80 hrs.
Maybe the old ones might have held up better. I now have the spinner slightly above the cowl and have noticed better cruise performance with the changed thrust line, any aerodynamics engineers like to comment. Perhaps now it's where it was designed to be.
Cheers Peter
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