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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:57 am Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Over the past few months I've had numerous occasion
to do some flat-battery charging as well as verify
functionality of a stable of charger/maintainers.
For decades I've enjoyed the predictable performance
of the Battery Minder and Battery Tender 'wall warts'.
Still have 4 or 5 in service. However, the cost
of these devices has moved steadily up . . . and
up.
Some months ago, I picked up a couple of these
critters:
https://tinyurl.com/3krjhuy8
The price is certainly attractive and less
than the 'wall warts'. Further, while the
wall wart charge rate was on the order of
0.8 to 1.0 amps, this device claims 10A!
Over the past few days I've verified this
performance on LA flooded, SVLA and
LiFePO4 chemistries. One is justifiably
wary of claims for 'repairing' or 'desulfating'
a battery.
I think I've cited The Battery University
several times in the past as a golden
source for information on battery technologies,
utilization and performance. As a refresher,
I'll cite one of many articles on that site;
this one specific to sulfation issues:
https://tinyurl.com/BatterySulfation
So, just ignore those claims for battery
resurrection/salvation and know that
these are a good value in charger/maintainers.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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I purchased a similar one of those chargers.
Pros:
Charges quickly, up to 8 amps.
_
Cons:
The wires are too short, only a couple of feet long.
The wires are stiff, might be stranded but not very many strands.
When clamping onto a battery, a spark jumps. That tells me that the charger
is drawing power from the battery before the AC cord is plugged in.
An internal fan runs while charging.
I would not trust leaving the charger connected overnight.
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_________________
Joe Gores |
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:01 am Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Joe's charger comment is very correct about the potential discharge problem
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:14 pm Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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This generally isn’t a problem unless you have a really long power outage, unplug the maintainer and forget about or have a defective maintainer that doesn’t power back up after a power failure. I experienced the latter with my first Lithium battery. I bought a Shorai battery and their special BMS01 charger that had a special connector to balance the cells. Well, their special charger also had special defective firmware. The first winter I had the battery, we had a power outage and I thought nothing of it as my BatteryMINDers always powered themselves back up when the power was restored and kept on trucking. Well, the Shorai charger, not so much. When I went to get the battery in the spring to put in my motorcycle, I noticed no lights on the charger even though it was still plugged in. I unplugged it and plugged it back in thinking it had died during the winter and it came right back up, but flashed lights that the batter was defective. I checked the voltage and it was well down into single digits. Deader than a door nail.
Shorai admitted they had a firmware issue in the BMS01 and replaced my battery under warranty. They said they would have a firmware fix and would exchange my charger, but after several months of inquiring about it and getting all sorts of excuses, I gave up on them and sold the charger, after informing the new owner of the defect. I will never own another Shorai product and got pretty soured on lithium batteries as the Shorai would not reliably crank my motorcycle at temps below 35. We had to jump it twice during a trip to Alaska.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 21, 2023, at 2:03 PM, skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Joe's charger comment is very correct about the potential discharge problem.
This is true also of the small maintainers like the Battery Tender.
They don't appear to have a blocking diode to prevent battery discharge.
If your wall power fails, due to a GFI failure, power line failure,etc., the chargers will slowly discharge the battery,
This can be really bad on some batteries. If discharged totally they may not be recovered or have severely limited capacity when charged.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:53 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
I purchased a similar one of those chargers.
Pros:
Charges quickly, up to 8 amps.
_
Cons:
The wires are too short, only a couple of feet long.
The wires are stiff, might be stranded but not very many strands.
When clamping onto a battery, a spark jumps. That tells me that the charger
is drawing power from the battery before the AC cord is plugged in.
An internal fan runs while charging.
I would not trust leaving the charger connected overnight.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511294#511294
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email(at)jaredyates.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:32 pm Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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The EarthX BMS would have mitigated the undervoltage failure. Don't let a
bms design shortcoming sour you to Lithium, it wasn't the lithium's fault.
Can't speak to the cranking problem without more details, but it hasn't
been my experience.
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023, 17:18 Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com>
wrote:
[quote] This generally isn’t a problem unless you have a really long power outage,
unplug the maintainer and forget about or have a defective maintainer that
doesn’t power back up after a power failure. I experienced the latter with
my first Lithium battery. I bought a Shorai battery and their special
BMS01 charger that had a special connector to balance the cells. Well,
their special charger also had special defective firmware. The first
winter I had the battery, we had a power outage and I thought nothing of it
as my BatteryMINDers always powered themselves back up when the power was
restored and kept on trucking. Well, the Shorai charger, not so much.
When I went to get the battery in the spring to put in my motorcycle, I
noticed no lights on the charger even though it was still plugged in. I
unplugged it and plugged it back in thinking it had died during the winter
and it came right back up, but flashed lights that the batter was
defective. I checked the voltage and it was well down into single digits
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:31 pm Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Lithium batteries perform poorly in the cold. That is why Tesla have battery heaters. My motorcycle had no battery heater. I found lithium batteries more trouble than they are worth in a vehicle. Very expensive, often nonstandard case size required foam to fit existing battery boxes, poor cold weather performance and not enough extra life to justify the cost.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 21, 2023, at 9:33 PM, Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> wrote:
The EarthX BMS would have mitigated the undervoltage failure. Don't let a bms design shortcoming sour you to Lithium, it wasn't the lithium's fault. Can't speak to the cranking problem without more details, but it hasn't been my experience.
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023, 17:18 Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com (m.whiting(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | This generally isn’t a problem unless you have a really long power outage, unplug the maintainer and forget about or have a defective maintainer that doesn’t power back up after a power failure. I experienced the latter with my first Lithium battery. I bought a Shorai battery and their special BMS01 charger that had a special connector to balance the cells. Well, their special charger also had special defective firmware. The first winter I had the battery, we had a power outage and I thought nothing of it as my BatteryMINDers always powered themselves back up when the power was restored and kept on trucking. Well, the Shorai charger, not so much. When I went to get the battery in the spring to put in my motorcycle, I noticed no lights on the charger even though it was still plugged in. I unplugged it and plugged it back in thinking it had died during the winter and it came right back up, but flashed lights that the batter was defective. I checked the voltage and it was well down into single digits. Deader than a door nail.
Shorai admitted they had a firmware issue in the BMS01 and replaced my battery under warranty. They said they would have a firmware fix and would exchange my charger, but after several months of inquiring about it and getting all sorts of excuses, I gave up on them and sold the charger, after informing the new owner of the defect. I will never own another Shorai product and got pretty soured on lithium batteries as the Shorai would not reliably crank my motorcycle at temps below 35. We had to jump it twice during a trip to Alaska.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 21, 2023, at 2:03 PM, skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com (skywagon185(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Joe's charger comment is very correct about the potential discharge problem.
This is true also of the small maintainers like the Battery Tender.
They don't appear to have a blocking diode to prevent battery discharge.
If your wall power fails, due to a GFI failure, power line failure,etc., the chargers will slowly discharge the battery,
This can be really bad on some batteries. If discharged totally they may not be recovered or have severely limited capacity when charged.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:53 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:53 am Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Bob,Thanks for doing the discharge measurements.
I have lost some deep cycle RV batteries due to the GFI popping for some unknown reasons.
It's usually the case where they have been put away for long periods of time, maybe over winter, and not being around to occasionally check for power. If I can't check on their condition routinely I will not plug the BT's in a GFI controlled circuit.
Using a non GFI controlled line, even if the power goes off and later is restored power is established back to the maintainer.
D
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 01:00 PM 8/21/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | Joe's charger comment is very correct about the potential discharge problem.
This is true also of the small maintainers like the Battery Tender.
They don't appear to have a blocking diode to prevent battery discharge.
If your wall power fails, due to a GFI failure, power line failure,etc., the chargers will slowly discharge the battery,
This can be really bad on some batteries. If discharged totally they may not be recovered or have severely limited capacity when charged. |
Just for grins, I just checked on a test Battery Tender
test cycle that just finished topping off a Genesis AGM.
I put an ammeter in series with the BT battery leads
and measured approximately 20 mA (charging) with the
BT still powered up and battery voltage at the 'maintenance'
level of 13.2 volts. With the BT unplugged, current
drain was approx 200 uA.
Circuitry within the BT must have some sense of
battery voltage but the electronics to sample that
value need not draw a lot of current. For this particular
variant on the Battery Tender Jr, that sampling current
is very small. Further, other electronics involved in
normal operation appears to 'disconnect' from the
target battery should the mains power be interrupted.
I'll check other battery maintenance examples as things
progress . . . but I'm thinking it's pretty easy to
avoid power-down discharge of the target battery. I suspect
we'll find similar conditions with other products.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
|
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steve(at)tomasara.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:58 pm Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Hi Bob,
While you are evaluating the "new kid" can you see how it behaves if it is connected to the battery but there is no AC? I have the unfortunate situation in that my city (Longmont CO) seems to do nasty things to the power line (usually, when I'm out of town) which causes all the GFIs in all the hangars in my area to trip. And then, it seems, every battery we have on a charge maintainer (my maintainer is one of the recommended Schumakers (sp?)) discharges through the maintainer.
Very irritating... I'm wondering if the "new kid" will also do this...
Steve Stearns
LongEz N45FC, Taylorcraft BC12D N43732
Boulder/Longmont CO
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:17 pm Post subject: FYI: New kid in battery charger/maintainers |
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Steve makes my earlier point about discharging expensive batteries due to maintainers/chargers not having some sort of blocking diode.I have a history of losing 4 deep cycle large batteries that discharged to a point that the chemistry refused to allow recharging.
This is especially true on GFI controlled AC circuits and not being around the area to reset them for months.
I solved this with a simple code (probable) breaking mod.
By removing the GFI and going with a straight through AC source. Doing this will allow the maintainer to be powered up again when the line becomes active.
If you are absent from the area for months this is a temporary fix.
D
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 4:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 8/30/2023 4:57 PM, Steve Stearns wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Bob,
While you are evaluating the "new kid" can you see how it behaves if it is connected to the battery but there is no AC? I have the unfortunate situation in that my city (Longmont CO) seems to do nasty things to the power line (usually, when I'm out of town) which causes all the GFIs in all the hangars in my area to trip. And then, it seems, every battery we have on a charge maintainer (my maintainer is one of the recommended Schumakers (sp?)) discharges through the maintainer.
Very irritating... I'm wondering if the "new kid" will also do this...
Steve Stearns
LongEz N45FC, Taylorcraft BC12D N43732
Boulder/Longmont CO
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Henny Youngman's excellent advice:
“The patient says, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
The doctor says, "Then don't do that!”
And from Bert Lance:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Any SLA or LifePo battery that's in good condition (as they should be in an a/c), without a load connected, will take a year or more to self-discharge to the point where you'd notice it.
I'll bet more batteries are killed by chargers and maintainers (through either defects or misuse) than are preserved/saved.
Just something to think about.
Charlie
 Virus-free.www.avast.com[url=#m_7554380294798554478_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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