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cluros(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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Good Morning All,
Our club has a Zenith 750 Cruzer with a Continental O-200. The alternator is standard Continental type on the back of the accessory case and the regulator is Ford type, mounted on the cabin side of the firewall. Battery is an EarthX 680.
For years the bus voltage was 14.4-14.6 after start and within a few minutes would decrease to 14.3-14.4. Over the last two months it has started to creep up. After start we've seen up to 15v and sometimes it will take 15 minutes before it gets down to 14.6, 30 minutes to return to a normal 14.3.
These numbers all recorded by a Dynon EMS, haven't confirmed them with a voltmeter yet but no reason to doubt the data.
Is it possible that a normally functioning Ford type regulator can demand voltages this high? Any ideas on what is going on here?
Thank you,
Sebastien
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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Check for bad connections that are corroded or loose.
The problem could also be internal to circuit breakers or switches.
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_________________
Joe Gores |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:35 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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At 10:28 PM 11/20/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Check for bad connections that are corroded or loose.
The problem could also be internal to circuit breakers or switches. |
This genere' of regulator senses bus voltage
on the same conductor that supplies field
power. Small increases in resistance of
connections and devices in this pathway
will cause the regulator to believe that
bus voltage is low . . . which is compensated
for by increasing field excitation.
Taken too far, this can lead to the 'galloping
ammeter' phenomenon discussed her on the List
in years past.
Simple experiment to confirm: Acquire a 'test
regulator' from parts store. Get it off the
'net . . . they're cheaper. Fabricate the
test setup depicted here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Testing.pdf
In this case, you know the alternator is
working so you can leave the meter out of
the test setup.
Make a temporary installation of this fixture
and test fly the airplane. See if the bus
voltage is now stable. If so, refurbish
all connections to components in the field
supply pathway . . . perhaps the components
themselves (field breaker, alternator control
switch).
This is a very common problem with regulators
that DO NOT have separate bus sense leads. It
has plagued thousands of BePipCesMo aircraft
beginning with the first alternator installations
in mid 60's. This was a primary driver for a
design decision to fit B&C regulators with the feature.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:54 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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Bob, if you had to buy a regulator for an OBAMÂ aircraft with EFIS and EMS, and conventional lycoming engine, legacy alternator, what would it be?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 17:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 10:28 PM 11/20/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Check for bad connections that are corroded or loose.
The problem could also be internal to circuit breakers or switches. |
 This genere' of regulator senses bus voltage
 on the same conductor that supplies field
 power. Small increases in resistance of
 connections and devices in this pathway
 will cause the regulator to believe that
 bus voltage is low . . . which is compensated
 for by increasing field excitation.
 Taken too far, this can lead to the 'galloping
 ammeter' phenomenon discussed her on the List
 in years past.
 Simple experiment to confirm: Acquire a 'test
 regulator' from parts store. Get it off the
 'net . . . they're cheaper. Fabricate the
 test setup depicted here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Testing.pdf
 In this case, you know the alternator is
 working so you can leave the meter out of
 the test setup.
 Make a temporary installation of this fixture
 and test fly the airplane. See if the bus
 voltage is now stable. If so, refurbish
 all connections to components in the field
 supply pathway . . . perhaps the components
 themselves (field breaker, alternator control
 switch).
 This is a very common problem with regulators
 that DO NOT have separate bus sense leads. It
 has plagued thousands of BePipCesMo aircraft
 beginning with the first alternator installations
 in mid 60's. This was a primary driver for a
 design decision to fit B&C regulators with the feature.
 Bob . . .
                  ////
                 (o o)
  ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
  < Go ahead, make my day . . .  >
  < show me where I'm wrong.     >
  =================================
Â
  In the interest of creative evolution
  of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
  on physics and good practice.
|
--
Best Regards,Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]Â Â Â Â
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:38 pm Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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At 09:52 AM 11/22/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Bob, if you had to buy a regulator for an OBAMÂ aircraft with EFIS and EMS, and conventional lycoming engine, legacy alternator, what would it be? |
Good question. I'm not a diligent observer
of the totality of offerings in the market.
There are no 'bad' or even 'poor' regulators
with respect to voltage. Building a
perfectly adequate regulator is a trivial
design task. The legacy, 4-terminal 'ford'
regulator has been manufactured by the box-car
load for many years and is perfectly fine.
The risk for this and regulators of similar
architecture is predicated on a shared
pathway for the regulator's voltage sense
line and alternator field current. When
this pathway is polluted with too many
manufactured joints, resistances due to
age can add up to a point where the regulator
will (1) artificially raise the bus voltage
by a few hundred millivolts and (2) ultimately
become unstable due to prime directive (maintain
xx.x volts on bus) and field current demands
that can begin to 'chase' each other generating
the rare but irritating 'galloping ammeter'
effect . . . combined with a constant
flickering of panel lights.
Early Cessna single engine ships had over
a dozen manufactured joints in this pathway
setting up a potential risk for this effect.
I believe other brands would suffer similar
effects.
I only designed one 3-terminal regulator per
specs supplied by the customer . . . all
subsequent designs featured at least a
positive voltage sense; sometimes both positive
and negative sense paths. This provided for
much improved performance over the lifetime
of the regulator.
The only regulators I'm aware of that feature
a separate sense path is the B&C LR/LS series
devices. I designed the first LR series circa
1985 (Voyager carried two newly minted LR-1's).
From the get-go, B&C decided that any such
product offered would be an ALTERNATOR CONTROLLER
consisting of a remote sense regulator, built
in over voltage management and active notification
of low voltage. I used to pitch the LR series
regulators over the counter at OSH by stating
the product was THREE devices at $75
each . . . making the $225 price a bargain.
There are many examples of separate sense
architecture out there. Ebay has many
by Lamar, ElectroDelta and others. But these
are all used, PMA devices with price tags to
match. None will include active notification
of low volts . . . only a few will have
ov management.
Therefore, burdened with ignorance of any
similarly configured products, the B&C LR3
would be my first suggestion. If one were
strongly motivated seek lower cost alternatives,
I'd go with a 'ford' 4-terminal regulator
teamed with a crowbar OVM and a low-volts
annunciator of some sort.
The 'ford' regulator will be just fine if
you minimize joints in the field supply line
and fabricate with PIDG quality terminations.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:13 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
|
|
At 09:52 AM 11/22/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Bob, if you had to buy a regulator for an OBAMÂ aircraft with EFIS and EMS, and conventional lycoming engine, legacy alternator, what would it be? |
Good question. I'm not a diligent observer
of the totality of offerings in the market.
There are no 'bad' or even 'poor' regulators
with respect to voltage. Building a
perfectly adequate regulator is a trivial
design task. The legacy, 4-terminal 'ford'
regulator has been manufactured by the box-car
load for many years and is perfectly fine.
The risk for this and regulators of similar
architecture is predicated on a shared
pathway for the regulator's voltage sense
line and alternator field current. When
this pathway is polluted with too many
manufactured joints, resistances due to
age can add up to a point where the regulator
will (1) artificially raise the bus voltage
by a few hundred millivolts and (2) ultimately
become unstable due to prime directives:
(a) maintain xx.x volts on bus and
(b) meet field current demands consistent with (a)
If the resistance in the sense/supply path
goes up, these requirements may begin to 'chase'
each other generating the rare but irritating
'galloping ammeter' effect . . . combined
with a constant flickering of panel lights.
Early Cessna single engine ships had over
a dozen manufactured joints in this pathway
setting up a potential risk for this effect.
I believe other aircraft have suffer similar
effects.
I've only designed one 3-terminal regulator per
specs supplied by the customer . . . all
subsequent designs featured at least a
positive voltage sense; sometimes both positive
and negative sense paths. This provided for
much improved performance over the lifetime
of the regulator.
The only regulators I'm aware of that feature
a separate sense path is the B&C LR/LS series
devices. I designed the first LR series circa
1985 (Voyager carried two newly minted LR-1's).
From the get-go, B&C decided that any such
product offered would be an ALTERNATOR CONTROLLER
consisting of a remote sense regulator, built
in over voltage management and active notification
of low voltage. I used to pitch the LR series
regulators over the counter at OSH by stating
the product was THREE devices at $75
each . . . making the $225 price a bargain.
There are many examples of separate sense
architecture out there. Ebay has many
by Lamar, ElectroDelta and others. But these
are all used, PMA devices with price tags to
match. None will include active notification
of low volts . . . only a few will have
ov management.
Therefore, burdened with ignorance of any
similarly configured products, the B&C LR3
would be my first suggestion. If one were
strongly motivated seek lower cost alternatives,
I'd go with a 'ford' 4-terminal regulator
teamed with a crowbar OVM and a low-volts
annunciator of some sort.
The 'ford' regulator will be just fine if
you minimize joints in the field supply line
and fabricate with PIDG quality terminations.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:26 pm Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
|
|
At 09:52 AM 11/22/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob, if you had to buy a regulator for an OBAMÂ aircraft
with EFIS and EMS, and conventional lycoming engine,
legacy alternator, what would it be? |
I published an essay on this thread
which HAS appeared in the AeroElectric-List
archives on Matronics . . . I think
it got published twice . . . first as
a draft and then the final version.
The matronics hardware was having a
bit of indigestion so the posts did
not show up in my email . . . but then,
I had 'read' it already!
Just in case any of you were having
the same problems I was having, I've
upgraded the essay to an illustrated
article and posted it to:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Regulator%20Selection/Alternator%20Regulator%20Selection.pdf
Access as you see fit . . .
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:41 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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|
No response when clicking on the link?
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 at 01:30, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:52 AM 11/22/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob, if you had to buy a regulator for an OBAMÂ aircraft
with EFIS and EMS, and conventional lycoming engine,
legacy alternator, what would it be? |
  I published an essay on this thread
  which HAS appeared in the AeroElectric-List
  archives on Matronics . . . I think
  it got published twice . . . first as
  a draft and then the final version.
  The matronics hardware was having a
  bit of indigestion so the posts did
  not show up in my email . . . but then,
  I had 'read' it already!
  Just in case any of you were having
  the same problems I was having, I've
  upgraded the essay to an illustrated
  article and posted it to:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Regulator%20Selection/Alternator%20Regulator%20Selection.pdf
  Access as you see fit . . .
 Â
 Bob . . .
                  ////
                 (o o)
  ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
  < Go ahead, make my day . . .  >
  < show me where I'm wrong.     >
  =================================
Â
  In the interest of creative evolution
  of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
  on physics and good practice.
|
--
Best Regards,Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]Â Â Â Â
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:40 am Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
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|
At 03:40 AM 11/28/2023, you wrote:
Just checked it . . . works from here.
Try this one:
https://tinyurl.com/ywduysaf
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
|
|
Both Links work for me.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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_________________
Joe Gores |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:29 pm Post subject: Alternator Voltage Creeping Up |
|
|
At 12:53 PM 11/28/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Both Links work for me. |
Thank you. Just for grins here's a
new link to Rev B
https://tinyurl.com/ylzb2tqm
It took some digging around but I finally
found the excerpt from a Cessna single-
engine service manual that illustrated
how not to wire a 3-terminal regulator.
I added that figure to the article.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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