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ARINC questions

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marcussab(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: ARINC questions

Hi,

I'm trying to get a handle on wiring  my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my  experimental aircraft. 

Are ARINC modules  interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific  to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232  output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC  protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is  rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data  the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module  could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to  convert their data?



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

Hi Marcus,



What exact items are you trying to connect? RS232 is a WIRING standard, nothing to do with the DATA FORMAT of the altitude data being sent from a GRT or Dynon. Both of those units will allow you to choose from several formats for altitude data output to match the format required by the device you are sending to. You will also have to match the data RATE (baud/speed) of the two devices.

Regards,

Sebastien

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023, 14:42 Marcus Sabathil, <marcussab(at)gmail.com (marcussab(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi,

I'm trying to get a handle on wiring  my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my  experimental aircraft. 

Are ARINC modules  interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific  to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232  output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC  protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is  rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data  the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module  could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to  convert their data?



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

I think you'd have to look at the individual ARINC module and see what 

it's made for.  In general, ARINC has some standard tags, and the data

that they pass would be fairly standardized.  The RS232 side may also

have some baud rate differences.  The single one that I'm familiar with,

used 38,400 baud in, which is fairly uncommon I think, but it put out a

standard list of ARINC 429 tags.

When it comes to the data format, you mention GRT vs Dynon RS232 data.

I don't think you should view it that way.  You should hope that

GRT and Dynon use some other standard format, such as ICARUS format.

If they do use a standard format, you can have a higher chance of

having the conversion work.   I've also never used just a plain

ARINC "module".   I've used boxes that were built using serial to

ARINC devices internally, but I believe the unit itself probably

had some coding in it to accomplish the conversion task.



All I can really offer is, if you stick to using some of the common

standardized RS232 and ARINC formats, there should be equipment you

can use to hook them together.  I've also had a friend have luck

using some of those single chip units, such as Teensy's, to convert

RS232 data into different formats.  So if you have programming skills,

I'd think you could probably accomplish just about anything you set your

mind to, if you get a hold of the standard protocols.

Tim

On 12/2/23 1:39 PM, Marcus Sabathil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi,

 

 I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and 

 the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft.

 

 Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or 

 are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a 

 serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the 

 ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. 

 Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude 

 data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module 

 could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC 

 Modules to convert their data?

 

 Cheers.

 Marcus Sabathil

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

While the ARINC standard is a standard and the communication between the source device (Garmin, Avidyne, S-Tec, etc.) and their ARINC module would be identical, the communication between the ARINC module and the destination device (AFS/Dynon, GRT, etc.) could all be different – especially since they all make their own ARINC modules.  Additionally, the type of data carried will use differing portions of the protocol… Traffic, FIS-B, roll control, etc. input where something else was expected could cause problems even when the data record type is identified.

 

There are a number of differing altitude outputs – just look at any serial capable altitude encoder as a starting example.

 

I would say each manufacturer that produces their own ARINC module generally provides proprietary output to their line of products.

 

I think I have at least three different ARINC converter boxes in my plane – one for GRT, one for AFS and one for S-Tec – they all carry data to the S-Tec.  Switching the devices is critical for proper operation.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 14:39

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:23 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

For example, here are the Dynon Skyview instructions for setting an RS-232 serial output line for altitude data in icarus format:



Example SkyView Serial Port Configuration for Icarus-Compatible Transponder

This example assumes that an Icarus format compatible transponder has been installed on serial port 1.

1. Enter the Serial Port 1 Setup Menu (SETUP MENU > SYSTEM SETUP > SERIAL PORT SETUP > SERIAL PORT 1 SETUP).

2. Set serial 1 input device to NONE (SERIAL 1 IN DEVICE: NONE).

3. Set serial 1 in function to NONE (SERIAL 1 IN FUNCTION: NONE).

4. Set serial 1 baud rate to 9600 (SERIAL 1 IN/OUT BAUD RATE: 9600)

5. Set serial 1 output device to ICARUS (100ft) or ICARUS (10ft) (SERIAL 1 OUT DEVICE: ICARUS (100ft) or ICARUS (10ft).

6. Press BACK or EXIT to save the settings.



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 12:13 PM <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

While the ARINC standard is a standard and the communication between the source device (Garmin, Avidyne, S-Tec, etc.) and their ARINC module would be identical, the communication between the ARINC module and the destination device (AFS/Dynon, GRT, etc.) could all be different – especially since they all make their own ARINC modules.  Additionally, the type of data carried will use differing portions of the protocol… Traffic, FIS-B, roll control, etc. input where something else was expected could cause problems even when the data record type is identified.

 

There are a number of differing altitude outputs – just look at any serial capable altitude encoder as a starting example.

 

I would say each manufacturer that produces their own ARINC module generally provides proprietary output to their line of products.

 

I think I have at least three different ARINC converter boxes in my plane – one for GRT, one for AFS and one for S-Tec – they all carry data to the S-Tec.  Switching the devices is critical for proper operation.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 14:39

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: AeroElectric-List: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:18 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

To a certain extent you are talking apples and oranges here.

 

RS232 is a serial data transmission protocol, it defines electrical interfaces and timing of signals, it also includes wiring of connectors (often ignored). There may only be one talker on a 232 datastream but several listeners.

 

By ARINC I think you mean ARINC 429 which is one of a number of ARINC standards. 429 deals with avionics data busses and defines the physical and electrical interfaces of a 2-wire data bus, it also specifies how data is transmitted. There is usually a bus controller and can be many nodes which can all listen and transmit (but can only listen), there are also 2 possible speeds. Some say 429 is similar to a MIL-STD-1553 databus but to me 1553 is more flexible.

 

On RS232 the most common messaging format we see is NMEA 0183 (NMEA = National Marine Electronics Association) which is specifically for GPS receivers and has several message “sentences”. For example the VTG sentence is exactly defined and transmits track made good and ground speed. Some manufacturers have their own proprietary sentences, for example PGRMV is the Garmin proprietary velocity sentence. NMEA 0183 specifies how these sentences will be transmitted and exactly what data will be included. Manufacturers may define their own sentences and don’t have to tell anyone what data is included in the sentence, you could decode the numbers but have no clue what the numbers mean.

 

For ARINC 429 there is a set of defined words, most messages contain only one data item, for example altitude for the air data computer (label 203). Often manufacturers will put their own “dialect” on the words.

 

Sometimes when there is a popular product, such as the GNS 430, many other manufacturers will comply with Garmin’s implementation of 429 and will be able to understand the data transmitted.

 

Are ARINC [429] modules interchangeable? Maybe, it depends what equipment is trying to communicate and who made it, it is not sufficient to comply with the electrical characteristics of ARINC 429.

 

RS232 is not really a data standard, it is a communications protocol on top of which messaging formats are transmitted. I don’t know if GRT RS232 device sending altitude would be received correctly by a Dynon device. 

 

You can’t use an ARINC 429 device and an RS232 device on the same network and hope they will communicate.

 

Peter

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 7:39 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:18 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

To a certain extent you are talking apples and oranges here.

 

RS232 is a serial data transmission protocol, it defines electrical interfaces and timing of signals, it also includes wiring of connectors (often ignored). There may only be one talker on a 232 datastream but several listeners.

 

By ARINC I think you mean ARINC 429 which is one of a number of ARINC standards. 429 deals with avionics data busses and defines the physical and electrical interfaces of a 2-wire data bus, it also specifies how data is transmitted. There is usually a bus controller and can be many nodes which can all listen and transmit (but can only listen), there are also 2 possible speeds. Some say 429 is similar to a MIL-STD-1553 databus but to me 1553 is more flexible.

 

On RS232 the most common messaging format we see is NMEA 0183 (NMEA = National Marine Electronics Association) which is specifically for GPS receivers and has several message “sentences”. For example the VTG sentence is exactly defined and transmits track made good and ground speed. Some manufacturers have their own proprietary sentences, for example PGRMV is the Garmin proprietary velocity sentence. NMEA 0183 specifies how these sentences will be transmitted and exactly what data will be included. Manufacturers may define their own sentences and don’t have to tell anyone what data is included in the sentence, you could decode the numbers but have no clue what the numbers mean.

 

For ARINC 429 there is a set of defined words, most messages contain only one data item, for example altitude for the air data computer (label 203). Often manufacturers will put their own “dialect” on the words.

 

Sometimes when there is a popular product, such as the GNS 430, many other manufacturers will comply with Garmin’s implementation of 429 and will be able to understand the data transmitted.

 

Are ARINC [429] modules interchangeable? Maybe, it depends what equipment is trying to communicate and who made it, it is not sufficient to comply with the electrical characteristics of ARINC 429.

 

RS232 is not really a data standard, it is a communications protocol on top of which messaging formats are transmitted. I don’t know if GRT RS232 device sending altitude would be received correctly by a Dynon device. 

 

You can’t use an ARINC 429 device and an RS232 device on the same network and hope they will communicate.

 

Peter

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 7:39 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

Peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:20 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

To a certain extent you are talking apples and oranges here.

 

RS232 is a serial data transmission protocol, it defines electrical interfaces and timing of signals, it also includes wiring of connectors (often ignored). There may only be one talker on a 232 datastream but several listeners.

 

By ARINC I think you mean ARINC 429 which is one of a number of ARINC standards. 429 deals with avionics data busses and defines the physical and electrical interfaces of a 2-wire data bus, it also specifies how data is transmitted. There is usually a bus controller and can be many nodes which can all listen and transmit (but can only listen), there are also 2 possible speeds. Some say 429 is similar to a MIL-STD-1553 databus but to me 1553 is more flexible.

 

On RS232 the most common messaging format we see is NMEA 0183 (NMEA = National Marine Electronics Association) which is specifically for GPS receivers and has several message “sentences”. For example the VTG sentence is exactly defined and transmits track made good and ground speed. Some manufacturers have their own proprietary sentences, for example PGRMV is the Garmin proprietary velocity sentence. NMEA 0183 specifies how these sentences will be transmitted and exactly what data will be included. Manufacturers may define their own sentences and don’t have to tell anyone what data is included in the sentence, you could decode the numbers but have no clue what the numbers mean.

 

For ARINC 429 there is a set of defined words, most messages contain only one data item, for example altitude for the air data computer (label 203). Often manufacturers will put their own “dialect” on the words.

 

Sometimes when there is a popular product, such as the GNS 430, many other manufacturers will comply with Garmin’s implementation of 429 and will be able to understand the data transmitted.

 

Are ARINC [429] modules interchangeable? Maybe, it depends what equipment is trying to communicate and who made it, it is not sufficient to comply with the electrical characteristics of ARINC 429.

 

RS232 is not really a data standard, it is a communications protocol on top of which messaging formats are transmitted. I don’t know if GRT RS232 device sending altitude would be received correctly by a Dynon device. 

 

You can’t use an ARINC 429 device and an RS232 device on the same network and hope they will communicate.

 

Peter

 

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 7:39 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

marcussab(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:45 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

OK. That all answers my questions pretty well. I'm not going to be adding another steep learning curve to my list of steep learning curves with which I pay myself $3 an hour for a week to save myself $500.  



As much as they are necessary to play with the big boy toys, ARINC-429 modules seem pretty expensive considering the component costs but since they are made in very low production numbers and require development, programming, troubleshooting, etc, I can see how they are priced relatively high. I wonder why they are not just built into each consumer avionics product from the factory. Isn't the whole point of a communication standard to make all this simpler, safer and more efficient? It's a standard that no one seems to use (in the consumer market) except when they want to sell you more black boxes.  I should try to accustom myself to the world someday. 

On the other, other hand, these small companies with fantastic customer service, like GRT, are really great to have around. Maybe I should complain a little less about that one product they sell that seems too expensive. 



Thanks everyone. 



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 12:13 PM <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

While the ARINC standard is a standard and the communication between the source device (Garmin, Avidyne, S-Tec, etc.) and their ARINC module would be identical, the communication between the ARINC module and the destination device (AFS/Dynon, GRT, etc.) could all be different – especially since they all make their own ARINC modules.  Additionally, the type of data carried will use differing portions of the protocol… Traffic, FIS-B, roll control, etc. input where something else was expected could cause problems even when the data record type is identified.

 

There are a number of differing altitude outputs – just look at any serial capable altitude encoder as a starting example.

 

I would say each manufacturer that produces their own ARINC module generally provides proprietary output to their line of products.

 

I think I have at least three different ARINC converter boxes in my plane – one for GRT, one for AFS and one for S-Tec – they all carry data to the S-Tec.  Switching the devices is critical for proper operation.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 14:39

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:16 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

Marcus you still haven't told us what you're trying to connect but you keep mentioning GRT. They are the one manufacturer of non-certified EFIS systems that typically does include 429 boxes built into their units instead of requiring a separate box. For example if I recall correctly the HXr had two separate 429 ports available that could be set to just about any data format used in amateur built avionics. Are you trying to connect a GPS and transponder to a GRT EFIS?



There are many amateur-built aircraft out there with all sorts of extra boxes and control units that could have been skipped by running a few wires and configuring the systems to work together. I've also seen several very expensive owner designed "Airliner" panels in Canada that didn't qualify for removal of the VFR restriction when the time came due to a lack of understanding of the redundancy requirements. It's hard to get a solid education when the people with the knowledge don't know what it is that you need to know. I suggest you post a block diagram here for review before you spend money unnecessarily. 

Regards,

Sebastien



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 6:49 PM Marcus Sabathil <marcussab(at)gmail.com (marcussab(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  OK. That all answers my questions pretty well. I'm not going to be adding another steep learning curve to my list of steep learning curves with which I pay myself $3 an hour for a week to save myself $500.  



As much as they are necessary to play with the big boy toys, ARINC-429 modules seem pretty expensive considering the component costs but since they are made in very low production numbers and require development, programming, troubleshooting, etc, I can see how they are priced relatively high. I wonder why they are not just built into each consumer avionics product from the factory. Isn't the whole point of a communication standard to make all this simpler, safer and more efficient? It's a standard that no one seems to use (in the consumer market) except when they want to sell you more black boxes.  I should try to accustom myself to the world someday. 

On the other, other hand, these small companies with fantastic customer service, like GRT, are really great to have around. Maybe I should complain a little less about that one product they sell that seems too expensive. 



Thanks everyone. 



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 12:13 PM <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

While the ARINC standard is a standard and the communication between the source device (Garmin, Avidyne, S-Tec, etc.) and their ARINC module would be identical, the communication between the ARINC module and the destination device (AFS/Dynon, GRT, etc.) could all be different – especially since they all make their own ARINC modules.  Additionally, the type of data carried will use differing portions of the protocol… Traffic, FIS-B, roll control, etc. input where something else was expected could cause problems even when the data record type is identified.

 

There are a number of differing altitude outputs – just look at any serial capable altitude encoder as a starting example.

 

I would say each manufacturer that produces their own ARINC module generally provides proprietary output to their line of products.

 

I think I have at least three different ARINC converter boxes in my plane – one for GRT, one for AFS and one for S-Tec – they all carry data to the S-Tec.  Switching the devices is critical for proper operation.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 14:39

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

marcussab(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:05 pm Post subject: ARINC questions

Thanks Sebastien,

I'm not going to buy anything until I decide on a GPS unit in any event. When I start designing my system,  I’ll run it past you folks here for sure. In addition to connecting my GRT Sport EX (GRT now supplies a separate ARINC box for the Sport EX) to an IFR capable GPS (not purchased yet) I have the autopilot servos to install.



I’m installing dual lightspeed plasma III ignition on an O-540. I’ll need to design a system with a backup battery, possibly a separate bus and an alternator (SD8) which I have. The original regulator for that was $95 through B&C but they have discontinued it for the ~$350 AVC1 Voltage controller. I was wondering what alternatives exist for the budget experimental builder or if that's a good value. The other alternator will be a belt driven 40 amp Denso converted to external regulation with a very interesting Lamar VR2000-14-3 regulator with built in OV protection (article here: http://kellyaerospace.com/articles/VoltageReg.pdf). I like the idea of two separate busses, each with it's own alternator but I'm very open to suggestions. 



I'm still debating my transponder choice (I'm Canadian who will fly  into the US so I'll eventually need a diversity antenna ADS-B out  situation) 

The main focus for now should probably be the ignition and charging system. I'll do a preliminary block diagram of what I have so far. 



Cheers,

Marcus

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 12:19 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Marcus you still haven't told us what you're trying to connect but you keep mentioning GRT. They are the one manufacturer of non-certified EFIS systems that typically does include 429 boxes built into their units instead of requiring a separate box. For example if I recall correctly the HXr had two separate 429 ports available that could be set to just about any data format used in amateur built avionics. Are you trying to connect a GPS and transponder to a GRT EFIS?



There are many amateur-built aircraft out there with all sorts of extra boxes and control units that could have been skipped by running a few wires and configuring the systems to work together. I've also seen several very expensive owner designed "Airliner" panels in Canada that didn't qualify for removal of the VFR restriction when the time came due to a lack of understanding of the redundancy requirements. It's hard to get a solid education when the people with the knowledge don't know what it is that you need to know. I suggest you post a block diagram here for review before you spend money unnecessarily. 

Regards,

Sebastien



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 6:49 PM Marcus Sabathil <marcussab(at)gmail.com (marcussab(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  OK. That all answers my questions pretty well. I'm not going to be adding another steep learning curve to my list of steep learning curves with which I pay myself $3 an hour for a week to save myself $500.  



As much as they are necessary to play with the big boy toys, ARINC-429 modules seem pretty expensive considering the component costs but since they are made in very low production numbers and require development, programming, troubleshooting, etc, I can see how they are priced relatively high. I wonder why they are not just built into each consumer avionics product from the factory. Isn't the whole point of a communication standard to make all this simpler, safer and more efficient? It's a standard that no one seems to use (in the consumer market) except when they want to sell you more black boxes.  I should try to accustom myself to the world someday. 

On the other, other hand, these small companies with fantastic customer service, like GRT, are really great to have around. Maybe I should complain a little less about that one product they sell that seems too expensive. 



Thanks everyone. 



On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 12:13 PM <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

While the ARINC standard is a standard and the communication between the source device (Garmin, Avidyne, S-Tec, etc.) and their ARINC module would be identical, the communication between the ARINC module and the destination device (AFS/Dynon, GRT, etc.) could all be different – especially since they all make their own ARINC modules.  Additionally, the type of data carried will use differing portions of the protocol… Traffic, FIS-B, roll control, etc. input where something else was expected could cause problems even when the data record type is identified.

 

There are a number of differing altitude outputs – just look at any serial capable altitude encoder as a starting example.

 

I would say each manufacturer that produces their own ARINC module generally provides proprietary output to their line of products.

 

I think I have at least three different ARINC converter boxes in my plane – one for GRT, one for AFS and one for S-Tec – they all carry data to the S-Tec.  Switching the devices is critical for proper operation.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Marcus Sabathil

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 14:39

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: AeroElectric-List: ARINC questions



 

Hi,



 



I'm trying to get a handle on wiring my EFIS and incorporating GPS and the use of ARINC-429 modules in my experimental aircraft. 



 



Are ARINC modules interchangeable, as long as you know the pinouts, or are they specific to each manufacturer? I know that If you are running a serial rs232 output to the ARINC module, it converts that signal to the ARINC protocol and that will then work with ARINC compatible avionics. Is rs232 data also standardized? For instance, Is GRT rs232 altitude data the same format as Dynon rs232 data and therefore, any ARINC module could be used? Or does each maker produce and program custom ARINC Modules to convert their data?



 



Cheers. 



Marcus Sabathil

dglaeser

Joined: 23 Feb 2018
Posts: 2

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:11 am Post subject: ARINC questions

 I just removed a 300XL and installed a Garmin 355 in my RV-7A. I also added an ARINC module to connect the GPS to my GRT Sport EX and TruTrack (now Bendix) A/P in order to get full LPV capability. 



If you have the vertical command’s option for the EX, then connect the ARINC to the EX, and A/P to the EX, and you are good to go.

I didn’t get the vertical commands for the EX, so I put in a DPDT switch so the A/P can be driven by either the EX ( lateral only commands) or directly from the 355, which allows the A/P to get the LPV glideslope from the GPS.  



I used GRT’s ARINC module (safest option) but I know folks who have done vendor mixing on that item.  GRT is the most flexible with regard to mixing with other brands. ARINC modules are generic regarding the connections, and all the vendors I know of speak the standard protocols needed - even Garmin 😎

Dennis Glaeser

_________________
Dennis Glaeser

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