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Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop.



The first question is as follows:

Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 and a Titon with a 503.



The second question that relates to the above is:

If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI?



Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request.



Ohio Ralph

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

Ralph:



 | Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I 

raise it to say 60 MPH ASI?

Here's what I would do.  Push the throttle forward.  I don't know what 

rpm you are using to maintain a cruise of 55 mph.  All Rotax two 

strokes like to run 5,800 rpm.  Seems like a lot of rpm's to the 

uneducated.  However, this is 75% power, and they like this speed. 

You may run your engine all the way to 6,500 rpm maximum continuous 

rpm.  It is designed to operate at these speeds.

| The second question that relates to the above is:

| If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it 

proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 

MPH ASI?



Not unless you eat a lot of breakfast before you decide to fly 60 mph.



john h

mkIII



PS:  With some experience cross country flying the original FS with 

447, and US with Cuyuna ULII02.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

Ralph, Are your lift struts streamlined? That's the easiest way to get where you want. A buddy of mine told me he gained 10 mph by streamlining the struts on his Minimax.

Try this for quick strut covers. Go to an engineering drawing supply house and get the thickest mylar sheet available on a roll. 10 feet of 36" wide sheet will make four covers. Cut the sheet into 9" wide strips, fold in half and crease. If you can talk the wife out of her sewing machine (or better yet get her to sew it) and use it to close what will be the trailing edge with a zig zag stitch. Slide them over your lift struts and trim to fit. Use a little tape to set their angle of attack and adjust until your happy. 

I didn't invent this method, another Ralph, Ralph Senter of Seattle made his flying money for a couple of summers at Dog Mtn. selling these to guys who wanted their single surface hang gliders to go a bit faster. Worked great. 



On 7/31/06, Ralph Hoover <flht99reh(at)columbus.rr.com (flht99reh(at)columbus.rr.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh(at)Columbus.rr.com (flht99reh(at)Columbus.rr.com)>



Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop. 



The first question is as follows:

Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 and a Titon with a 503. 



The second question that relates to the above is:

If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI?



Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request. 



Ohio Ralph





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51236#51236



 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

If it were me, I would first put fairings around the landing gear legs, 

I already know that helps. Also the lift struts if they are not 

presently streamlined. Then I would make all the tubes of the upper 

fuselage that are in the air flow to be streamlined, including the 

aileron pushrods. Finally, I would gap seal between the inside edges of 

the horizontal stab and the fuselage tube, and gap seal the rudder to 

the vertical fin, and the elevators to the stab. And I bet that would do 

it with out changing the stall speed a bit, with minimal addition of weight.

And the reason I say "If it were me," is because I plan to do all those 

things to the MKIII this winter.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Ralph Hoover wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop.



 The first question is as follows:

 Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 and a Titon with a 503.



 The second question that relates to the above is:

 If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI?



 Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request.



 Ohio Ralph





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51236#51236

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Fantastic, Gentlemen, and thank you. 



Here goes:

RPM is between 5,600 and 5,800 RPM at cruise. Struts are streamlined thanks to my predecessor. Gaps between all air foil hinged area are gap sealed, but only on one side. I believe ailerons are on the underside, will need to check if that makes any difference. Rudder is on the Port side. I noted the Preacher stated something along the lines of landing gear legs. What is there are round plastic tubes, who's I.D.'s are slightly larger than the legs themselves. They are the Kolb longer legs.



I never remember experiencing the "defined" feeling of cruise when I was flying the Challenger. It sure is noticeable in the Kolb. Plus my Flightstar II climb / descend indication shows precisely where that point is. Sounds like the only thing left is streamlining the legs. Will that make any significant difference? If so, I may do it out of the Mylar initially.



Thank you each one, again for your help. And "IS" 55 a typical cruise speed for the Firestar?



Ohio Ralph

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: Firestar cruise

Ralph, I wonder if you're not over propped? 

When I put the new blades in my Warp Drive, I got the prop pitch set wrong, big time. The first flight I made the mistake of flying when I should have shut it down. I made it, but the Mk III would barely reach 60 mph and engine RPM was low, in the high 4000's, low. I nursed her around and back to the hangar and took .75 degrees out. Now she could do 70, but climb was still pitiful and RPM was 5300 +/-. Back to the hangar and took another full degree out. The engine reached 6200 RPM, the climb was much, much better (sorry no VSI) and I could get to the top of the green arc on the ASI (90 mph) in level cruise. 

If your prop is adjustable, I'd back out .5 degrees and see what you get.

Barring that, I have a 66 X 28 I can send you to try.



Rick



On 8/1/06,  Ralph Hoover <flht99reh(at)columbus.rr.com (flht99reh(at)columbus.rr.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh(at)Columbus.rr.com (flht99reh(at)Columbus.rr.com)>



Fantastic, Gentlemen, and thank you.



Here goes:

RPM is between 5,600 and 5,800 RPM at cruise. Struts are streamlined thanks to my predecessor. Gaps between all air foil hinged area are gap sealed, but only on one side. I believe ailerons are on the underside, will need to check if that makes any difference. Rudder is on the Port side. I noted the Preacher stated something along the lines of landing gear legs. What is there are round plastic tubes, who's  I.D.'s are slightly larger than the legs themselves. They are the Kolb longer legs.



I never remember experiencing the "defined" feeling of cruise when I was flying the Challenger. It sure is noticeable in the Kolb. Plus my Flightstar II climb / descend indication shows precisely where that point is. Sounds like the only thing left is streamlining the legs. Will that make any significant difference? If so, I may do it out of the Mylar initially. 



Thank you each one, again for your help. And "IS" 55 a typical cruise speed for the Firestar?



Ohio Ralph





Read this topic online here:



 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Firestar cruise

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Thank you each one, again for your help. And "IS" 55 a typical cruise 

 speed for the Firestar?



 Ohio Ralph


	


When I had my single seat Firestar the ASI seemed to be "tied" to the tach. 

What I mean is if I was turning 5500 rpm, I was at 55 mph, 6,000 rpm, 60 

mph,etc.  I know there's no relation between these two conditions but that's 

how it was.  Oh yeah, it had a 447.  Great little airplane.



AzDave



 	  Quote:

_________________
AzDave

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Ralph,



When I flew an early Firestar with the 35 hp 377, it would cruise true airspeed of 55 mph at only 5,200 rpm and EGTs were fine. It would cruise a good bit over 60 mph at 5800-5900 rpm but was a lot noisier. And this was with a big cannister BRS hanging down in the breeze below the fuselage. However, it did have streamlined wing struts but no leg fairings and the prop was a 60" two-blade IVO. And, it had smallish wheelbarrow tires. Big tires will knock off a couple MPH easily.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: Firestar cruise

Do you have a cockpit enclosure? There is a world of difference in 

efficiency between enclosed and open on the Firestar. (You need to pick 

Vince Nicely's brains on this, he is the Firestar II efficiency expert. 

Talked to him last night, he was out yesterday in his FSII, thermal 

sniffing, flew for 3 hours, burned 6 gallons of gas)

On our FSII, it has a 582, and runs 55 mph at 5000 rpm. At 5800 rpm, you 

better to have the nose up and be climbing.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Ralph Hoover wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Fantastic, Gentlemen, and thank you. 



 Here goes:

 RPM is between 5,600 and 5,800 RPM at cruise. Struts are streamlined thanks to my predecessor. Gaps between all air foil hinged area are gap sealed, but only on one side. I believe ailerons are on the underside, will need to check if that makes any difference. Rudder is on the Port side. I noted the Preacher stated something along the lines of landing gear legs. What is there are round plastic tubes, who's I.D.'s are slightly larger than the legs themselves. They are the Kolb longer legs.



 I never remember experiencing the "defined" feeling of cruise when I was flying the Challenger. It sure is noticeable in the Kolb. Plus my Flightstar II climb / descend indication shows precisely where that point is. Sounds like the only thing left is streamlining the legs. Will that make any significant difference? If so, I may do it out of the Mylar initially.



 Thank you each one, again for your help. And "IS" 55 a typical cruise speed for the Firestar?



 Ohio Ralph





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51435#51435

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

"When I flew an early Firestar with the 35 hp 377, it would cruise true airspeed of 55 mph at only 5,200 rpm and EGTs were fine. It would cruise a good bit over 60 mph at 5800-5900 rpm but was a lot noisier. And this was with a big canister BRS hanging down in the breeze below the fuselage. However, it did have streamlined wing struts but no leg fairings and the prop was a 60" two-blade IVO. And, it had smallish wheelbarrow tires."



Thom, Sounds exactly, except motor size as mine, to the IVO prop. It appears from what you stated above that there are or were two cruise speeds. Is this possible? Like going faster until one exceeds a particular "next level" drag coefficient? Man, that would be pretty great, I just crank that baby wide open and get past the shudder and whammo, past the speed of sound! Seriously, is there a second cruise speed?



And Reverend, My cockpit is closed on both sides to the point of door clearance from the wings. It is not closed in the back.



And Rick, I am touched deeply that you would let me try one of your props. I do believe that mine is their factory IVO prop, and believe that it is 66 inches. Not sure of the pitch. Will check out when back to the plane.

My instructor also indicated that a change in prop would make a difference. There goes my drug money. Soon I won’t have any bad habits, my plane sucked up all their monies!



Steady as a rock here in Ohio Ralph

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Hi Ralph,



I have a Firestar II with a 447 and a PowerFin ground adjustable prop. I will never claim to be an expert. At fifty-five mph indicated Im turning about 5000 rpm or so. It seems to me that you should be getting a way better performance from your bird having a 503.



Sounds like you must be dragging buckets of cement or something.   



I would begin by rechecking your trims and prop.  Reduction ratio will make a big difference as to how your KXP will move along. Verify your tach, it may be reading higher than actual rpms. Also verify your airspeed indicator with a GPS.  You could be going faster than you think.



Just a few ideas to think about.



Best Regards

Carlos G

AKA The BaronVonEvil

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

WHOA, RALPH!!



What shudder? This is the first I've heard of that. Tell us more about this shudder. It needs to be investigated first and foremost.



Mine was smooth as silk up to about 75 mph and then there was no "shudder" but it was getting a little squirrely and very noisy. It was smooth and comfortable at all speeds from 40 mph to about 70, just a lot noisier at the higher speeds than the lower ones. Also, I had a complete enclosure on mine, so if your is open, it won't go as fast as one that is open. Even with an open cockpit and a windshield, I would think you should be able to  get 60-65 easily enough with an engine about 37% stronger than mine. When just sight seeing I cruised at 5,200 rpm and 55 mph and burned about 2.6 gph average at that speed. It also climbed at 700 fpm with a 210 lb pilot and ten gallons of fuel, so I know the prop was set for a good compromise between climb and cruise.



As one Kolber said, you should maybe look at your prop pitch along with the streamlining efforts.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Baron, I have two: one electronic and one mechanical, ASI's as well as two electronic Tach's. Both are on the Flight II and Engine F-1 glass gauges, and are correct. 



I do however wonder what prop you may be using as there was a conversation on this site and may still be on-going that talks about RPM and ASI. John H. hit the nail on the head about my actual RPM verses ASI, our ring-ding motors do like that 5,500 to 6,500 RPM range. Are your EGT's where they should be? What ASI are you getting from your cruise? I would "assume" (gulp) that the 447 would want the same kind of RPS to run effeciently. 



And yes, I believe I am dragging a bucket of cement or two. Thats what I want to work out. Not that 55 is a bad speed, but when I fly over the freeway here in Ohio, I'd like to at least match speed. And not the my kolb won't do 85 streight, it isn't the most effecient at doing that.



Ohio Ralph

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Thom, there really isn't any "shudder". What I was eluding to was when man first exceeded the speed of sound, there was a shudder. The plane flew well up to that point and then shook like it was coming apart and then when the sound barrier was broken, it went back to normal.



I may have a certain sensitivity to the cruise and also have a gauge telling when I am climbing or dropping or stable. When I pick an altitude in still air and level off, it takes a reduction or increase in throttle to maintain that altitude. For me, it is maintained at 55 and at 5,400-5,600 RPM. From what I read in what you wrote (that'l make your head spin), it seemed that you had a low and a high cruise. I must have misread your post. My comment was both serious as in "are there two cruise speeds?" and If I keep cranking will I "attain" another cruise speed. Now my head hurts and the winds are high here in Ohio and the thermals are aggressive and I haven't had a fix (FLYING..PEOPLE, FLYING), in over a week! Perhaps that's why I not making very much sense.



Ohio Ralph with the shakes!

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

| And Reverend, My cockpit is closed on both sides to the point of 

door clearance from the wings. It is not closed in the back.

|

 | Steady as a rock here in Ohio Ralph



Ralph:



Just a guess, but I would think most of your drag is being produced by 

your cockpit/cabin configuration.  Seems to me like you are flying 

around in a big suction cup, e.g., the inclosed front and open rear 

cockpit.



The original FS would fly 85 mph WOT straight and level powered by a 

447.  Cockpit not fully enclosed, but the rear of the fuselage was. 

On my FS I put a 6 to 8" fairing, made of lexan, on the top of the 

windshield.  This increased airspeed by directing air over the center 

section.  I also flew with 4130 streamlined lift struts. 

And........my 447's were cleaned up to make a little more power.



US flew 85 mph straigh and level, WOT, with a 35 hp Cuyuna.  My sharp 

pointed nose probably helped eliminate some drag sitting completely in 

the open.



I think fabric tension has a lot to do with how well a Kolb flies. 

When I shrink my fabric, I shrink it until the structure squeals. 

Check out my mkIII and you will see evidence of extremely tight fabric 

and bowed edges.  Sometimes we don't shrink tight enough, making for a 

more concave wing bottom and different shape on top of the wing.  That 

surely must slow us down.



The FS II does not perform nearly as well as the original FS, in my 

own humble opinion based on a lot of hours flying both models.



Take care,



john h

hauck's holler, alabama

mkIII/FS/US

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar cruise

Hi Ralph,



Here is another thought, when you get a chance please post some photos of your bird in its present state. Sort of do a walk around of your plane so that all us wanna be aerodynamisist can look at your plane. We may be able to spot something here or there that might help you gain the needed speed you desire. ( We promise to ignore the Cement bucket!).



My EGT and CHT  are right where they should be.  I run a 62" PowerFin composite, ground adjustable prop that seems to be just the ticket. I have a 447 with a B box with the 2.59 reduction. Its a pull start engine.  



Looking forward to the pictures...



Best regards



Carlos G

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

Ralph,



My original Firestar cruises at about 60-65 mph at 5,800 with a 503 DCDI.



John Murr

---

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   On our FSII, it has a 582, and runs 55 mph at 5000 rpm. At 5800  

 rpm, you better to have the nose up and be climbing.


	


Rich,

What diameter prop are you guys turning?



My 582 FSII    55 mph = 4700 rpm but I sacrificed some climb  

performance.

I have a 72" IVO and a 2.58 B box.



Fuel burn =  2.5 gal. per hr.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

Got a correction - all this talk about Firestars got the best of me, so 

I went flying a little while ago. And discovered I remembered my numbers 

all wrong. My apologies, and here is what it really is.

First flight, the prop had too much pitch for this hot air, made the 

EGT's way too low, but the airspeed/rpm ratio was nice.

4800 rpm= 58mph

4900=60

5000=62

5300=70

5500=75

5700=80

The tach in the EIS was being silly around 51-5200 rpm, so no speeds 

recorded there.

Landed and took 3/4 of a turn of pitch out of the Ivoprop and tried it 

again, the airspeed/rpm ratio was not as good, but the EGT's were up to 

normal.

4600=48

4800=51

5000=55

5200=66

5400=70

5600=75

5800=78

There is not as perfect a correlation between rpm and airspeeds as I 

would like, the tach in the EIS tends not to settle at any certain rpm, 

it hops around a bit, (Is this normal?)  so there is a certain lack of 

precision here, but I think you get the general idea.

And it has a 68" Ivo 2 blade, and a 2.58:1 gearbox. I don't know what it 

burns an hour, since I am not the one that usually flies it, but it is 

more than 2.5 gph.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Eugene Zimmerman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote:

> On our FSII, it has a 582, and runs 55 mph at 5000 rpm. At 5800 rpm, 

> you better to have the nose up and be climbing.

 Rich,

 What diameter prop are you guys turning?

 My 582 FSII    55 mph = 4700 rpm but I sacrificed some climb performance.

 I have a 72" IVO and a 2.58 B box.

 Fuel burn =  2.5 gal. per hr.

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ul15rhb(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: Firestar cruise

-- "John Murr" <jdm(at)wideworld.net> wrote:




Ralph,



My original Firestar cruises at about 60-65 mph at 5,800 with a 503 

DCDI.



John Murr



John M,



Mine does the same speed at 5200 with a 447 SC and streamlined struts, 

long windshield.



Ralph

Original Firestar

19 years flying it

N91493

---

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