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Atrocious - Long Rant

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Yes, I started this so let’s bring it full circle with complete disclosure.  For many builders, Please except my apologies here.  

  

I did post that friends die in aviation so be careful coming home. We lost an EAA chapter president this weekend.  I am strongly safety oriented.  Here is my history.  I have been directly in aviation since 1973, as a pilot, instructor, FAA pilot examiner, repairman and now an A & P mechanic.  For years I did mechanic related work (often but not always under the direct/indirect supervision of an A & P).  In 1996, I became passionately involved in kit building, first as a lurker, then a student, then a builder.  In 2002, I was amazed at the money non A & Ps were getting to build kit-built aircraft under the guise of the 51% rule for people with money.  I am talking about many former, untrained workers of kit manufacturing companies building 51% aircraft.  Specifically the money is in excess of 6 digits per FAA approved flying kit.  These guys were getting rich.  The attraction was the MONEY.  Suddenly one owner of a kit company noticed the money was not going in his pocket but rather the non A & P – for hire builder.  This action is now casually called Builder Assist.  It directly effects the intent and interpretation of the archaic 51% rule.  I began my RV-10 journey long before the first RV-10 kit was released.  

The rule is that the builder (only one individual) builds the project for their sole education and enjoyment.  Upon request, that individual obtains a Repairman Certificate for that exact and passionate pursuit and only that one bird.  The thought was that learning would have taken place and that individual would need to maintain that safe aircraft.  Many have bastardized that concept.  Many are building more than One or Two flying aircraft of a specific model.  How does building Three or Ten sound.  The pursuit involves completing and becoming educated on the appropriate tasks involved in a specific make and model.  Obviously for this discussion, Wood and Fabric do not apply to the RV-10.  The FAA has allowed the Engine, Firewall Forward, Avionics, Paint and Interior to be removed from the 51% evaluation.  One manufacturer has gone as far as to ship the economic advantage outside the US of A to help builders defray cost and time to completion.  The FAA carefully evaluated that the intent of the 51% rule was not violated.  

Enter 2005,  Dr. Carl Cadwell of Washington state (builder of a beautiful Lancair IVP), he chose to purchase Rick Schrameck’s first  Epic LT (made in Oregon) for his education and enjoyment (six passenger, composite with the Beech Starship turbo-prop).  Political forces, competitive kit builders and bureaucrats became concerned at the complexity and consequence of such an audacious build.  Dr. Cadwell and his team of friends carefully completed the project, under the watchful eye of the factory.  He carefully documented the journey.  Several competitors cried fowl and the FAA chose to block, delay and threaten to not approve his educational pursuit.  Did I mention he invested Seven digits in this journey.  Now digressing. I still coveted all that money and envisioned a chance to build a company to assist builder’s in their dreams.  Dave Saylor of Aircrafters – Watsonville, CA http://www.aircraftersllc.com/projects/rsl4p/ is representative of a true Builder ASSIST Shop.  This does not mean to write a check, lie on the application that education was the motivation and falsely claim the check writer was the actual builder.  I saw a value in bringing Part 23 Certification knowledge to Kit Builders.  I still see value in calling marginal or shoddy quality to the attention of builders.  

Joe Bartels of Lancair Kits has done a lot to correct the corruption and bastardization of the 51% violators with his Factory Assist program ($4,000 per week) of assistance.  

  

Here is the rub.  I took a two year sabbatical, attended FAA Approved Part 147 school, became an A & P and took a job at a significant pay cut to work for one of the nation’s most successful regional airlines just to get the experience and to assemble a team of professional mechanics like Dave Saylor to assist other First Time Kit Builders.  The violators are still operating.  Some of them do shoddy work.  No level of quality work can justify the willful bastardization of this unique 51% rule.  This is a US of A regulation for US citizens and foreign nationals to come into the US of A and build the kit to Our standards.  When those kits are shipped overseas, they are intended to be certified by the nation where manufacture takes place.  Here is where all of you should be passionately interested.  When poor flight planning, poor flight training and poor mechanical construction or mechanical difficulty come together people die.  Insurance rates are nothing more than a mirror – those guys are in business for the money.  As a result, the Lancair builders, many who were in their third or fourth year of an expensive education were faced with No Insurance or ridiculously high insurance rates (back in 2003, 2004).  Now who is going to gamble on the first statistics on the RV-10.  I have not yet built my Builder Assist facilities.  It will not build an aircraft for anyone.  It was intended to Assist those already pursuing the dream with additional assistance.  Now Van has been clear and he won’t do Factory Assist.  And yes, I asked the first question at his Forum at OSH.  “What is your company’s position and what do you hear regarding changes in the 51% rule?”.  Not being shy, I bite bullets for safety every day.  Now Russ you’re an attorney.  All of this is on the web for any attorney to find.  I am prepared to give Expert testimony if called upon in any US of A court of law.  These violators need to be stopped before the rule is modified which hurts individual kit builders.  

John Nys, Jesse Saint, and other hired guns…the building of aircraft with the intent of sale to third parties is an ethical violation of the intent and it is a direct violation of this unique rule.  It is time for the FAA to clean up this dirty practice. In the memory of George Bogardus, I call upon both of you to cease the pursuit or obtain Certification for Production Aircraft.  I personally think the 51% rule should be enforced after the second production of any specific Make, or Model.  If you can’t get the Education down by then… go to school and become a career mechanic.  Let the individual builders learn.  

Many builders of the RV-10 kit do not understand the rule, may be in a foreign country or actually want to obtain the direct education.  Writing the check is just a mater of money – education is not part of that equation.  The rest of you should know the task list, comply with the 51% rule. http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm And don’t hire someone else to assemble the key components of the rule for you.  Buying someone else’s education does not allow the acquisition of a Repairman Certificate.  Most A & Ps won’t touch home builds. Sole Occupant during the required fly off means just that… ONE SOLE ON BOARD.  

I am concerned as Tim posted that such a high percentage of the original aircraft are being quickly sold to the untrained public.  Supply and Demand is alive and well in the Home Ownership Industry… Ouch.  

John Cox - $00.02  

Holder of the FAA Diamond AMT Award  

My apologies to our friends across the pond with string and tin can.  

P.S. I am thankful for the watchful eye of the many who pointed out the flaws and have posted pictures and descriptions of OSH ’06.  Build Safe, Learn Much, don’t hire professional guns masking themselves behind the 51% rule.  Let me toast to your efforts next year at OSH ‘07

morgjj

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 24

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading0 all these emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words0 together that you don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a0 critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy workmanship,0 yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out the help of0 professionals.  How can you have your cake and eat it0 too?

  

 Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to0 make new builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at0 times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.  I0 want to build quality.  However, that being said, there are many tasks and0 skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the world that I will0 have my blemishes as well!  I might have more than a couple too!0 

  

 I will work to make the  primarily safe and0 secondarily cosmetically acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my0 baby to OSH.... I hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the0 critics walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay.  In my0 life I have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't equate to0 good deal.  I would way rather have the good deal, rather than good  looking.  After all we are talking about safety, which is the cornerstone0 of our insurance rates.  I would rather see some cracked paint on an0 airplane than a cracked skin!  Who wouldn't?

  

 So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain0 or defend what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things0 as constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about this0 group.  I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on the plane.0 It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH.  It was also an experiment0 in learning to see what worked and what didn't.  It isn't right to try and0 judge that as a finish project, when we can all see that the project never0 really ends as we update and change our minds.  Heck check out eBay and all0 kinds of avionics on there that were king of the crop at one0 time.

  

 Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when0 they walk up. All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in0 a direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all the0 mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do.  I would guess that the0 folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test where the folks0 that aren't working to end the 51% rule.  Why must we publicly flog  them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make sure that paint0 doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate with the design when you0 suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your time and results so that we can all0 learn.  After all this whole plan it to build a plane so that you0 learn.......

  

 I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I0 have been staring at things and just not been sure what to do.  Here is how0 to fix that so that we all benefit.  The stuff I saw was little and most of0 it didn't compromise safety.  That is key, and at times, I think we loose0 that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the best of all0 worlds.  The planes will only get better.  I hate to think that there0 would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to bring up their0 mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being bashed for not "doing it0 right".  

  

 As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be0 willing to let folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the0 outsourcing and violations that we are seeking to stop!

  

 Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right,0 as I am willing to have the discussion for the sake of0 learning!!!

  

 Thanks

 Jeff



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com0 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W.0 Cox

Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM

To:0 rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Atrocious - Long0 Rant

 

 

Yes, I started this so  let’s bring it full0 circle with complete disclosure.  For many builders, Please except my0 apologies here.

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Amen.

  

 Kevin

 40494

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

VERY, VERY well said! Open mindedness is healthy.



Negativity eventually becomes positivety in a closed cirquit.

Need I turn the computer emails off along with the Television?



Do not archive



JG 409

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan(at)compnetconcepts.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Atrocious - Long Rant

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:24:34 -0500



So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading all these

emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words together

that you don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a

critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy

workmanship, yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out the help

of professionals.  How can you have your cake and eat it too?



Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to make new

builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at

times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.

I want to build quality.  However, that being said, there are many tasks

and skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the world

that I will have my blemishes as well!  I might have more than a couple

too!



I will work to make the  primarily safe and secondarily cosmetically

acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my baby to OSH.... I

hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the critics

walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay.  In my life I

have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't equate

to good deal.  I would way rather have the good deal, rather than good

looking.  After all we are talking about safety, which is the

cornerstone of our insurance rates.  I would rather see some cracked

paint on an airplane than a cracked skin!  Who wouldn't?



So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain or defend what

has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things as

constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about

this group.  I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on the

plane. It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH.  It was also an

experiment in learning to see what worked and what didn't.  It isn't

right to try and judge that as a finish project, when we can all see

that the project never really ends as we update and change our minds.

Heck check out eBay and all kinds of avionics on there that were king of

the crop at one time.



Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when they walk up.

All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in a

direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all

the mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do.  I would guess

that the folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test

where the folks that aren't working to end the 51% rule.  Why must we

publicly flog them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make

sure that paint doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate with

the design when you suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your time and

results so that we can all learn.  After all this whole plan it to build

a plane so that you learn.......



I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I have been

staring at things and just not been sure what to do.  Here is how to fix

that so that we all benefit.  The stuff I saw was little and most of it

didn't compromise safety.  That is key, and at times, I think we loose

that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the best of

all worlds.  The planes will only get better.  I hate to think that

there would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to bring

up their mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being bashed

for not "doing it right".



As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be willing to let

folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the outsourcing

and violations that we are seeking to stop!



Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right, as I am

willing to have the discussion for the sake of learning!!!



Thanks

Jeff



________________________________



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM



Yes, I started this so let's bring it full circle with complete

disclosure.  For many builders, Please except my apologies here.

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Since I'm on a roll, lemme take a shot!!!

 Jeffery J. Morgan wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Atrocious - Long Rant                So, maybe just me and my cynical and critical eye reading  all these emails, but I find it ironically troubling (there are two words  together that you don't see too often), that so many builders would take such a  critical eye (heavy on the criticism) about the folks with shoddy workmanship,  yet the same group blasts the folks that seek out the help of  professionals.  How can you have your cake and eat it  too?

 	
 You missed a big point.  Shoddy workmanship is a sign of indifference .... and it could kill someone down the road.  I don't think anyone blasted those that seek the help of professionals ...... it was paying professionals to build their airplane.    	  Quote: 	
		      Here is my take on this. I am a new builder and going to  make new builder mistakes. I am taking my time (way more than I would like at  times as I tend to be impatient), but it is for the good of the cause.  I  want to build quality.  However, that being said, there are many tasks and  skills that are new to me and lo and behold, I promise to the world that I will  have my blemishes as well!  I might have more than a couple too!

 	
 Blemishes can be found everywhere .... nobodys perfect.  I've seen really poor workmanship ..... and it was so obvious ...... crooked rivet lines, bulges where they shouldn't be ..... boat lights for nav lights ..... nothing on this airplane was square ..... and both wings were twisted .... in the same direction .... creating a roll moment.  Far from blemishes.  Building a quality airplane means that you may toss out a structure because you made an error or it doesn't fit correctly .... and do it over.  	  Quote: 	
		       

      I will work to make the  primarily safe and  secondarily cosmetically acceptable so that I don't get beat up once I fly my  baby to OSH.... I hope that I would not want to fly it to OSH for fear of the  critics walking around judging what they feel is good versus okay.  In my  life I have learned through many experiences that good looking doesn't equate to  good deal.  I would way rather have the good deal, rather than good  looking.  After all we are talking about safety, which is the cornerstone  of our insurance rates.  I would rather see some cracked paint on an  airplane than a cracked skin!  Who wouldn't?

 	
 I think the criticism you're talking about was indicative of the rush to get it done for sale ...... quality construction takes time and being critical of your own work.  It's the difference between having to do a little bondo work ..... or slathering on most of the big can to hide a goof.  Quality is sanding out the runs in the paint, sanding and filling fiberglas parts so they line up with their neighbor surfaces.  It's being able to recognize what the reflection is on a fiberglas airplane as you sight down the wing.  It's the attention to detail and pride in what you do.    	  Quote: 	
		      So back to my first paragraph, I am not trying to explain  or defend what has been posted. I think that we should all look to make things  as constructive as possible and look to share, which is what I like about this  group.  I talked to the folks with the "shoddy looking foil" on the plane.  It was temporary so that they could fly to OSH.  It was also an experiment  in learning to see what worked and what didn't.  It isn't right to try and  judge that as a finish project, when we can all see that the project never  really ends as we update and change our minds.  Heck check out eBay and all  kinds of avionics on there that were king of the crop at one  time.

 	
 I agree.  It was just one data point among many.    	  Quote: 	
		      Everyone gets to decided what is good and what is not when  they walk up. All I would ask is that if you have a suggestion, you share it in  a direct and polite manner. Heck I would love to have someone tell me all the  mistakes not to make and how to hide the ones I do.  I would guess that the  folks that showed up at OSH and didn't pass the campfire test where the folks  that aren't working to end the 51% rule.  Why must we publicly flog  them? Here is a thought, make a suggestion how to make sure that paint  doesn't crack, or say what you felt wasn't adequate with the design when you  suggest it isn't okay. Also talk about your time and results so that we can all  learn.  After all this whole plan it to build a plane so that you  learn.......

 	
 And building an airplane for education, not profit was the point.  I share the same fear that's been floated here.  When you bend or break the rules .... those that can  ....  just change the rules ..... and that may make it more difficult down the road.  The FAA has become more lenient in regard to homebuilt aircraft these last few years .... and I'd hate to see us lose those benefits .... such as QB assemblies ..... or pre-punched parts  ..... or .......    	  Quote: 	
		      I agree that some things need work, but at the same time, I  have been staring at things and just not been sure what to do.  Here is how  to fix that so that we all benefit.  The stuff I saw was little and most of  it didn't compromise safety.  That is key, and at times, I think we loose  that. I don't want to too loose that, and want to bring in the best of all  worlds.  The planes will only get better.  I hate to think that there  would be a time that one person wouldn't feel comfortable to bring up their  mistakes and solicit suggestions without fear of being bashed for not "doing it  right". 

 	
 Again, I agree to a point.  There's a difference between common sense and a glaring experiment or outright safety of flight issue.  One of the things that I really like about experimentals is the ability to make improvements (in my mind) to an existing airplane, to make it safer, more efficient, or faster.  I can't do that with my certificated airplanes!  I really love my Grumman, and there's things I would like to do to improve it.  But I'll build an airplane to replace the Grumman.  I'll spend far more time and money taking this route ..... but I love working with my hands and learning new stuff.  I'm learning a whole lot about riveting ..... haven't done much of that yet.  And what I know about tube and rag construction isn't going to help me out a whole lot on the RV.  But it's a pleasure and education thing with me.   	  Quote: 	
		      

      As we fight to protect the 51% rule, we must also be  willing to let folks make mistakes. Not allowing that is what leads to the  outsourcing and violations that we are seeking to stop!

 	
 Again, it's not the mistakes that was at issue.  It was ignoring the spirit and intent of the experimental aspect of aviation.  It was the pursuit of money, not education that was paramount.  The 51% rule and it's present interpretation is the cornerstone on which the whole experimental category rests.  There are very few rules that we have to follow in this endeavor .... and ignoring or breaking them will only bring more regulation.  It has nothing to do with smileys, craters, extra holes filled with rivets, to prime or not to prime ... the list goes on.    	  Quote: 	
		      Sure I have made some mad. Hope I hear why I am not right,  as I am willing to have the discussion for the sake of  learning!!!

 	
 Nah, I doubt anyone went away mad.  And the only thing I read that I disagree with is the 'critical criticism' part.  You will only be held up to criticism if you REALLY screw up ..... but it will only be because it's deserved.  My Pitts won't win any awards except maybe 'ladies choice' or 'best homebuilt' if nobody else shows up.  But I built it.  And I learned a lot. And I have a lot more to learn.  And when I park my plane next to a georgeous example ... I have a real deep respect for what that builder had to go through to make an award winning airplane.  Funny .... my aerobatics gets more criticism than the airplane does, but it gives me the incentive to try and make the figures a little better.  I'm sure it'll be the same with my riveting.

 Linn

 do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		       

     Thanks

     Jeff

   

          From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John W.  Cox

   Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:28 PM

   To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Atrocious - Long  Rant

   

   

      

Yes, I started this so  let’s bring it full  circle with complete disclosure.  For many builders, Please except my  apologies here.

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Holy cow!  Will this rant ever0 end?

  

 Kevin

40494

tail/empennage

  

 do not archive

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

What keeps getting missed here is what we are discussing is building an

aircraft for resale.  Not for learning and not for enjoyment.  I don't

think anyone has criticized, at least openly, the work of another

builder who is doing it for the fun of it.  Neither is anyone condemning

seeking out professional help, John Cox was even clear his intention is

to offer builders assistance.  



Seeing how the foil comment was aimed at me, I just want to point out I

already said that it was temporary.  However the reason I picked on this

aircraft is because it went up for sale and it had MANY other lapses in

quality.  If these guys are going to build aircraft for resale, and

possibly cause all of us to eventually loose this privilege, I feel they

are open game.  Not to mention if anyone is trolling this list for

information on a specific plane for sale, I think they should know about

the quality. I am certainly not building a perfect aircraft and doubt I

will meet the standards set by the likes of Debbie or John Stewart.



I don't think you made anyone mad with your email and I know I always

welcome different POV's.



Michael



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Sure, I can end it right now.

  

 Hey guys, what kind of primer should I0 use?

  

 Michael LMAO

 do not archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com0 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of0 KiloPapa

Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM

To:0 rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Atrocious - Long0 Rant

 

 Holy cow!  Will this rant ever0 end?

  

 Kevin

40494

tail/empennage

  

 do not archive

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

How about them Red Sox?  Go Big Papi!  

   

Maybe I will paint a big mural of David Ortiz on the side of our plane . . .  

   

TDT  

40025  

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:55 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Atrocious - Long Rant  

  

   

Sure, I can end it right now.  

   

Hey guys, what kind of primer should I use?  

   

Michael LMAO  

do not archive  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa

 Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Atrocious - Long Rant    

Holy cow!  Will this rant ever end?  

    

   

    

Kevin

 40494

 tail/empennage  

    

   

    

do not archive

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		                          Sure, I can end it right now.

      

     Hey guys, what kind of primer should I  use?

 	
 I'm partial to the 'red dot' primer.  It seats well in the casing and misfires are rare.   

 Linn

  	  Quote: 	
		       

     Michael LMAO

     do not archive

   

          From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of  KiloPapa

   Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:46 AM

   To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: Atrocious - Long  Rant

   

   

      Holy cow!  Will this rant ever  end?

      

     Kevin

 40494

 tail/empennage

      

     do not archive

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

This should go over well.....

Maybe some do not posses the needed mechanical skills to properly build an aircraft, or to rephrase need to develop the skills before applying them to building an airplane.



If you need to call a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, you may want to reconsider building an airplane. "Pride" and "Workmanship" go hand in hand. It's OK to make mistakes...it's not OK to not fix them.



Practice on your trim package not your aircraft and don't accept anything less than your own high standard of WORKMANSHIP!!! Printed Standards are usually a minimum acceptable practice. It's OK to exceed them.



Don't tell me there is no pride...this post has been dripping with it as well as some puffy dented ego's.  Don't flame someone who truly gives a rats A** about you getting hurt or hurting someone else whether directly or indirectly by higher rates or loss of priviledges.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

Synergy and Alexander's need a plug at this point.  Everyone I speak

with say their quality came up, their build progress increased, their

confidence soared. They learned what to look for and how to evaluate

construction. Now what is negative about that. If you fear composites

consider Abaris.  All of this makes for healthy and wise kit builders.

None of these build aircraft the train builders in valuable life

affirming skills.



I just wish my Build Assist Facility was up and running, cause being on

KUAO with VANS is no small marketing advantage.



John Cox - KUAO



--

k5wiv(at)amsat.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: Atrocious - Long Rant

My preference0 is CCI.  Never had a misfire even with a soft hammer0 spring.

  

 

Jack & Cecilia Sargeant 

1127 Patricia St. 

Wichita,0 KS 67208-2642 

316/683-5268  [quote]   --

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