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Russ Kinne
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
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 Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: stalls |
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Rick
You wrote an interesting post. What I think your CFI wants is that
you have perfect control of the aircraft at any speed or angle of
bank; hence the practicing of maneuvers you may never use. Doing
figure 8's is a good example. It takes lots of coordination to
compensate for wind drift, loss of altitude, etc etc while
maintaining airspeed and altitude, and not drifting away from ground
target. Very good practice. Cuban 8's too.
I assume Kolbs and the EIS have no audible stall-warning horn? I'd
miss this -- I don't want to take my eyes away from windscreen to
look at a gauge. I've been accused (with some reason) of wearing out
the stall-warning horn -- mostly while whale-surveying at 500' or
less (Cessna 170)
With a properly-rigged aircraft you can hold the stick back (150,
170, 172, 182 etc) and she'll just drop the nose, start flying again,
drop the nose, etc, as long as you want. You don't need to add
power, and certainly not ram the throttle forward.
Stalls may be scary but it's good to go there AT ALTITUDE and get
some experience on how it feels and know what's going to happen next.
Russ Kinne
On Jul 31, 2006, at 5:24 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
[quote]
<NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Richard
I saw your comment about the stall recovery but I never talked
about it with my CFI. Personally I don't like stalls. I don't do
them and don't practice them. I know I should but... What I do is
practice not doing them. There are a number of things that they
have us do in the check ride that doesn't make sense to me. Yes my
CFI also wants to see much more than a nibble or a buffet. In
normal flight I'm never going to feel a nibble or a buffet and
blunder on into a full blown stall. The only time this might happen
is when I'm close to the ground like takeoff or landing. How
stupid? No I do practice slow flight down to the point where my
airplane is telling me WARNING you push me any further and I will
stall.Then I recover as quickly as possible. Another big test all
CFIs seem to want is fly a 45 degree bank turn without gaining or
loosing altitude. What does that do for us? Again in normal flight
we never do this. On occasion I do high bank turns like they want
you to do landing to the north/west at Oshkosh but I'm flying a
approach profile not holding altitude.
Granted there are some reasonable things they have us do during the
biannual but most of it is just a pain in the.....
Maybe John W. could enlighten us. He is a CFI and I'm sure he has
had to jump thru many more hoops as a airline captain than we have to.
Sorry I will stop my rant.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: stalls |
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Rick, Since I started flying in the late 60's, I've buried more than a few pilot friends far too soon before their time. So please take this in the context that you seem like an interesting guy and I'd like to meet you at Monument Valley next spring.
What you are doing is very, very dangerous. The only defense against stall spin accidents is to practice, practice, practice breaking a stall cleanly and quickly.
Let me share an experience I had last month.
It was a nice balmy evening here on the Great Grass Desert, the wind was from the north, my favorite since it means I can just taxi out to runway 35 and be off. The takeoff roll was normal into an 8 mph wind and I began a 55 mph climb out after lift off. Everything was still normal as I passed thru 200 feet.0
What happened next was either a micro shear at the treeline on the right at midfield or a late evening thermal lifted off when I was in its shear boundary, or something. Honestly, I'm guessing, but I've been thrown out of thermals a lot and that's what it felt like. What I do know is that the nose came up suddenly, completely uncommanded. The last airspeed I saw was 40. The right wing dropped sharply and began to slip backward. I don't really remember jamming the stick forward and stomping on the left rudder pedal. I did, and the nose came down, the turn to the right stopped and the aispeed was climbing back thru 50 and I pulled back on the stick, carefully, at 60. I had lost 20 to 40 feet by the time I resumed the climb at 65. Needless to say, I did a subconcsious skivees check as I turned to downwind. I could feel nothing wrong with the airplane so I continued on with my evening cruise over the farm fields, quietly thanking every instructor and examiner who'd ever made me demonstrate proper stall recovery.
Whether caused by weather, fuel starvation, or spatial disorientation, the stall spin accident is still what kills the majority of pilots. Practicing approach and departure stalls at a safe altitude is the only real defense you have, don't disarm yourself thinking it won't happen to me.
Rick
On 8/1/06, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net (kinnepix(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net (kinnepix(at)earthlink.net)>
Rick
You wrote an interesting post. What I think your CFI wants is that
you have perfect control of the aircraft at any speed or angle of
bank; hence the practicing of maneuvers you may never use. Doing
figure 8's is a good example. It takes lots of coordination to
compensate for wind drift, loss of altitude, etc etc while
maintaining airspeed and altitude, and not drifting away from ground
target. Very good practice. Cuban 8's too.
I assume Kolbs and the EIS have no audible stall-warning horn? I'd
miss this -- I don't want to take my eyes away from windscreen to
look at a gauge. I've been accused (with some reason) of wearing out
the stall-warning horn -- mostly while whale-surveying at 500' or
less (Cessna 170)
With a properly-rigged aircraft you can hold the stick back (150,
170, 172, 182 etc) and she'll just drop the nose, start flying again,
drop the nose, etc, as long as you want. You don't need to add
power, and certainly not ram the throttle forward.
Stalls may be scary but it's good to go there AT ALTITUDE and get
some experience on how it feels and know what's going to happen next.
Russ Kinne
On Jul 31, 2006, at 5:24 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
< NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>
Richard
I saw your comment about the stall recovery but I never talked
about it with my CFI. Personally I don't like stalls. I don't do
them and don't practice them. I know I should but... What I do is
practice not doing them. There are a number of things that they
have us do in the check ride that doesn't make sense to me. Yes my
CFI also wants to see much more than a nibble or a buffet. In
> normal flight I'm never going to feel a nibble or a buffet and
|
[quote] blunder on into a full blown stall. The only time this might happen
is when I'm close to the ground like takeoff or landing. How
stupid? No I do practice slow flight down to the point where my
airplane is telling me WARNING you push me any further and I will
stall.Then I recover as quickly as possible. Another big test all
CFIs seem to want is fly a 45 degree bank turn without gaining or
loosing altitude. What does that do for us? Again in normal flight
we never do this. On occasion I do high bank turns like they want
you to do landing to the north/west at Oshkosh but I'm flying a
approach profile not holding altitude.
Granted there are some reasonable things they have us do during the
biannual but most of it is just a pain in the.....
Maybe John W. could enlighten us. He is a CFI and I'm sure he has
had to jump thru many more hoops as a airline captain than we have to.
Sorry I will stop my rant.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: stalls |
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-In defense of Rick N's position: the majority of stall/spin 0
accidents are tight
turns at low altitude. The standard power off, straight ahead stall 0
and recovery
bears no resemblance to this. In my younger days I did all the spins, 0
loops,
drop slips, and various drop-out-of-the-sky maneuvers possible in my old
standard category taildragger.
Now, having satisfied my curiosity in such matters, being less bold, and
not having a BRS installed, I am quite happy to just motor about the 0
neighborhood
well within the realm of sane speed and attitude limitations.
Certain emergency responses may be counterintuitive to some people, 0
such as
stick forward to aim at the ground to regain flying speed, but that is 0
generally all
that is needed to save your butt. If you are already too close to the 0
ground to
do it, then the backup plan has to be used. Kiss your butt goodbye.
-BB, too inflexible now for that one
do not archive
On 1, Aug 2006, at 10:45 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote] Rick, Since I started flying in the late 60's, I've buried more than a 0
few pilot friends far too soon before their time. So please take this 0
in the context that you seem like an interesting guy and I'd like to 0
meet you at Monument Valley next spring.
What you are doing is very, very dangerous. The only defense against 0
stall spin accidents is to practice, practice, practice breaking a 0
stall cleanly and quickly.
Let me share an experience I had last month.
It was a nice balmy evening here on the Great Grass Desert, the wind 0
was from the north, my favorite since it means I can just taxi out to 0
runway 35 and be off. The takeoff roll was normal into an 8 mph wind 0
and I began a 55 mph climb out after lift off. Everything was still 0
normal as I passed thru 200 feet.
What happened next was either a micro shear at the treeline on the 0
right at midfield or a late evening thermal lifted off when I was in 0
its shear boundary, or something. Honestly, I'm guessing, but I've 0
been thrown out of thermals a lot and that's what it felt like. What I 0
do know is that the nose came up suddenly, completely uncommanded. The 0
last airspeed I saw was 40. The right wing dropped sharply and began 0
to slip backward. I don't really remember jamming the stick forward 0
and stomping on the left rudder pedal. I did, and the nose came down, 0
the turn to the right stopped and the aispeed was climbing back thru 0
50 and I pulled back on the stick, carefully, at 60. I had lost 20 to 0
40 feet by the time I resumed the climb at 65. Needless to say, I did 0
a subconcsious skivees check as I turned to downwind. I could feel 0
nothing wrong with the airplane so I continued on with my evening 0
cruise over the farm fields, quietly thanking every instructor and 0
examiner who'd ever made me demonstrate proper stall recovery.
Whether caused by weather, fuel starvation, or spatial disorientation, 0
the stall spin accident is still what kills the majority of pilots. 0
Practicing approach and departure stalls at a safe altitude is the 0
only real defense you have, don't disarm yourself thinking it won't 0
happen to me.
Rick
On 8/1/06, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> 0
wrote:kinnepix(at)earthlink.net>
>
> Rick
> You wrote an interesting post. What I think your CFI wants is that
> you have perfect control of the aircraft at any speed or angle of
> bank; hence the practicing of maneuvers you may never use. Doing
> figure 8's is a good example. It takes lots of coordination to
> compensate for wind drift, loss of altitude, etc etc while
> maintaining airspeed and altitude, and not drifting away from ground
> target. Very good practice. Cuban 8's too.
> I assume Kolbs and the EIS have no audible stall-warning horn? I'd
> miss this -- I don't want to take my eyes away from windscreen to
> look at a gauge. I've been accused (with some reason) of wearing out
> the stall-warning horn -- mostly while whale-surveying at 500' or
> less (Cessna 170)
> With a properly-rigged aircraft you can hold the stick back (150,
> 170, 172, 182 etc) and she'll just drop the nose, start flying again,
> drop the nose, etc, as long as you want. You don't need to add
> power, and certainly not ram the throttle forward.
> Stalls may be scary but it's good to go there AT ALTITUDE and get
> some experience on how it feels and know what's going to happen next.
> Russ Kinne
>
> On Jul 31, 2006, at 5:24 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
>
> >
> > < NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > I saw your comment about the stall recovery but I never talked
> > about it with my CFI. Personally I don't like stalls. I don't do
> > them and don't practice them. I know I should but... What I do is
> > practice not doing them. There are a number of things that they
> > have us do in the check ride that doesn't make sense to me. Yes my
> > CFI also wants to see much more than a nibble or a buffet. In
> > normal flight I'm never going to feel a nibble or a buffet and
> > blunder on into a full blown stall. The only time this might happen
> > is when I'm close to the ground like takeoff or landing. How
> > stupid? No I do practice slow flight down to the point where my
> > airplane is telling me WARNING you push me any further and I will
> > stall.Then I recover as quickly as possible. Another big test all
> > CFIs seem to want is fly a 45 degree bank turn without gaining or
> > loosing altitude. What does that do for us? Again in normal flight
> > we never do this. On occasion I do high bank turns like they want
> > you to do landing to the north/west at Oshkosh but I'm flying a
> > approach profile not holding altitude.
> >
> > Granted there are some reasonable things they have us do during the
> > biannual but most of it is just a pain in the.....
> >
> > Maybe John W. could enlighten us. He is a CFI and I'm sure he has
> > had to jump thru many more hoops as a airline captain than we have 0
> to.
> >
> > Sorry I will stop my rant.
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> > Rick Neilsen
> > Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
> >
> > ---
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: stalls |
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Rick
No offence taken. I hope to make it to Monument0 Valley next year one way or another and we can continue this0 discussion.
I do think you are mistaken. First it0 is MOST important to recognize a stall before it happens and how to quickly0 keep it from happening. Second an airplane in general and Kolbs in particular0 fly much different fully stalled than they do when they are about to. In0 fact they fly differently near stall. My Kolb flies with less overall0 control and more power related pitch response. I choose to practice recovery0 before a stall because I always know a stall is coming. When my0 airplane was new I tried a power off landing with full flaps just like John0 Hauck showed me in my demo flight (well... not just like it). When I got close0 to the ground I panicked and pulled up too soon. Kind of like I was trained0 to do in a Cessna. Well I was 30-40 AGL with the IAS falling0 fast below 40 but it wasn't the airspeed that got my attention it was my0 beloved Kolb screaming don't hurt me. I quickly nosed down and landed hard0 bending the landing gear. It could have been0 worse!!!
My airplane and in fact every airplane I have0 ever flown from a Weedhopper on the low end to a Piper Saratoga on the bigger0 end have always warned me they were about to quit flying. I'm not talking about0 those fancy stall horns. My primary flight instructor told me recently0 that I must have my butt directly wired to the wings because I could detect a0 stall quicker than any student he had ever had. This came from practicing and0 paying attention to your airplane. If you feel the controls not just0 horse them around they tell you speeds, attitude, condition of the airplane and0 impending stall.
If you only practice fully stalling0 a Kolb you might do the wrong thing when you are close to the0 ground and are close to a stall. Worse yet you might even not know it is0 about to stall.
I have flown in turbulence were I was getting0 pitched well beyond 45 degrees up and down as well as in roll. I never had a0 full stall. I nearly lost my lunch and vow never to fly in that kind of weather0 again. I also fly from a narrow strip lined by tall trees that can create some0 nasty turbulence and wind shear so I try to use a bit of common sense by adding0 a bit of additional speed to my takeoffs and landings when it is windy. Except0 for that once I have never come close to a unintentional stall. Knock on my0 head.
In spite of all this yes I have fully stalled my0 plane near aft CG with no flaps and yes there was big break when it let go but0 as everyone says just release some back pressure and it was flying again. I0 haven't done it yet but I will some time try it near forward CG and at least0 some flaps. My guess is it might not stall at all.
My point is listen to your airplane it is talking.0 Learn/practice on how best to recover from an impending stall. This is a0 more likely situation close to the ground than recovering from a full0 stall. If you do blunder into a full stall close to the ground you might0 not be able to recover quickly enough even if you practice and you will not be0 debating this on THIS list.
Sorry for the long post and worth what you0 paid for them.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: stalls |
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One thing that I like about my Mark III is that when you get close to a
stall, it starts acting strange. Kind of like a silent stall warning
device that is telling you to get the nose down a little.
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: stalls |
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"As the nose drops, you ease the stick0 forward while adding power to arrest the descent.">>
Hi,
that may be fine on an exercise when you are0 expecting a stall but pretty useless in real life. `Stick forward and opposite0 rudder` is all you really need. Forget the engine, it is the wing that stalls0 and as with most things lowering the angle of attack will sort it out. In fact0 unless you are entering a really viscious stall a slight release of0 back pressure wil do.
Talk to a glider pilot. Incipient spins and stalls0 form a major part of the training. Glider pilots spent the majority of their0 time in rough thermals, steeply banked and teetering on the edge of a0 stall because you climb faster that way.
On the appraoch the low and slow final turn is a0 particularly dangerous spot because the wind gradient may well give a0 difference of 10 knots difference in windspeed beetween the wing tips on0 a long sailplane wing. If you are near the stall the up wing may be just0 above the stall but the lower wing could stall and quit flying. Turning `flat`0 because you are too close to the ground is worse as your outside wing will speed0 up and tend to rise while the inside wing will slow down and could stall.0 Classic spin entry.
With the Kolbs shorter wing the effect is not so0 pronounced but a similar situation is present.
Cheers
Pat
do not archiv
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