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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Oshkosh accident |
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low pass wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "low pass" <rv_8pilot(at)hotmail.com> (rv_8pilot(at)hotmail.com)
pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth. wrote:
| Quote: | "An EAA official reported that the aircraft taxiing on Papa taxiway
between the P-1 taxiway and Tower Road taxiway are not controlled by ATC
ground control or by EAA marshallers. "
I bet they will next year!!!
Linn
do not archive
Jerry Springer wrote:
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Still all comes back to not taxiing when you apparently aren't looking where you're going!
I hope for no changes next year. I really appreciate the effort of the volunteers at Oshkosh and other fly-ins, but I will never trust them explicitly. No one should.
I learned something with this - you can bet I'll keeping an eye on what might be taxiing behind me.
2 cents
Bryan |
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Bryan, this was an accident waiting to happen. I've witnessed other accidents by tail-draggers chewing up airplanes in front of them. When I'm taxiing in the Pitts, I'm as blind as that Avenger pilot was. I truly can relate. However, I don't have that wide of a gear and can s-turn on a narrow taxiway with no problem. He really can't. The power he'd use to swing the tail back and forth would blow lesser planes following out in the boonies. I read the NTSB report and understood exactly how it happened. The addition of volunteers with paddles to regulate the flow on the taxiway could have prevented this accident. It may be as simple as a golf cart on the grass to aid those pilots with forward visibility problems .... and as I said, it doesn't reside only with the warbirds ..... would go a long way to prevent a reoccurrence. The only other solution would be to set up departure times by type and I'm sure nobody wants that. What saddens me me about this accident is that it truly was preventable ..... like most accidents are. This is what I meant about learning from the accident. Keeping a close (or even wary) eye on the airplane behind you means you aren't paying total attention on the one in front of you, and that could put you in the same place as the Avenger. That wasn't meant to flame .... just to offer a different take on it.
Linn
do not archive.
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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I really don't see where I even implied slightly that the PIC wasn't
responsible. What I said was (emphatically) that he could have used
some help. I'm sure the the Avenger PIC tried hard not to create a
spectacle. He just failed. There are always many things that can
change the outcome of an accident. However, I don't see where "waiting
'till they go by" or "waiting 'till all the other planes are gone" is a
solution. That guy behind you while you're waiting just may have the
same vision problem. Not a good solution to orderly departures whether
it's Oshkosh, Lakeland or a weekend airshow somewhere.
Yup, all the fault lies with the Avenger pilot ..... assessing blame is
easy here ..... but the point is that the accident was ..... most
likely ...... preventable if the pilot had some help.
If you want a really chilling wakeup call, sit by the taxiway watching a
string of departing planes and count those that are busily programming
their GPS. I know, they're tough to spot when they're behind you. Be
afraid, be very afraid.
Linn
do not archive.
Mark Sletten wrote:
| Quote: |
Beware, this is an op ed post,
SNIP
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| Quote: | I know I'm going to hear from those of you accusing me of armchair
quarterbacking. That's as may be, but I felt compelled to comment in light
of Linn's (maybe unintentional - see below) hints that someone other than
the PIC might be responsible for the safe movement of his or her aircraft on
the ground. Even *WITH* ground spotters, taxiing safely is still the
responsibility of the PIC. To even hint, however faintly, otherwise is to
open Pandora's Box.
SNIP
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| Quote: | Linn Walters said:
I read the NTSB report and understood exactly how it happened. The addition
of volunteers with paddles to regulate the flow on the taxiway could have
prevented this accident. It may be as simple as a golf cart on the grass to
aid those pilots with forward visibility problems .... and as I said, it
doesn't reside only with the warbirds ..... would go a long way to prevent a
reoccurrence. The only other solution would be to set up departure times by
type and I'm sure nobody wants that. What saddens me me about this accident
is that it truly was preventable ..... like most accidents are.
|
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jhelms(at)i1.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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Although I generally agree that the PIC of the Avenger was at fault, I'd bet
my last dollar that EAA gets sued as part of that loss, though. It's their
party after all, but the main reason is that they likely have more $ and
insurance coverage available than the Avenger pilot (who will certainly also
be named in any lawsuit).
JT
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lhelming(at)sigecom.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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rembree(at)sympatico.ca
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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This list certainly tosses enough ideas around for the lawyers seize. I
like Gordon Comforts ideas.
In addition to looking over my shoulder etc I wouldn't mind taxiing
along with a flag on the top of a long pole. My kids already think I am
goofy so I don't mind being uncool. Surely there is enough collective
creativity here to design something telescopic that would mount to the
back side of the seat or neatly fits into the baggage compartment. It
could be named after our fallen brother.
Just one idea.
RE
JT Helms wrote:
| Quote: |
Although I generally agree that the PIC of the Avenger was at fault, I'd bet
my last dollar that EAA gets sued as part of that loss, though. It's their
party after all, but the main reason is that they likely have more $ and
insurance coverage available than the Avenger pilot (who will certainly also
be named in any lawsuit).
JT
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jhelms(at)i1.net
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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I doubt highly if my mention below has somehow caught the eye of an attorney
who was previously oblivious to that accident and because of my post all of
a sudden realized there might be money to be made in this accident and that
he ought to try to get some of it. There are ambulance chasers in aviation
too, and trust me... They attend Oshkosh and other fly-ins and watch the
news reports. (not intended as a flame on all attorneys.)
It seemed to me that you were mildly flaming me for having posted my guess
that the EAA would get sued as my posting it would somehow cause it to
happen. I don't believe that was a just interpretation of my comment's
potential effect.
I know, life's not fair. I'll shut up and get back to work now.
JT
Do not archive
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jpl(at)showpage.org
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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| Quote: |
In addition to looking over my shoulder etc I wouldn't mind taxiing
along
with a flag on the top of a long pole. My kids already think I am
goofy so I
don't mind being uncool. Surely there is enough collective
creativity here
to design something telescopic that would mount to the back side of
the seat
or neatly fits into the baggage compartment. It could be named
after our
fallen brother.
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I don't think we need to carry around flagpoles for our airplanes.
But I wonder if a very very small change would make us more visible.
What if the policy was for small aircraft to sort of hug the left
side of the taxiway instead of doing what we all do -- plant the
front wheel on the centerline and be proud of our ability to taxi
precisely.
If the small aircraft hugged the left side, and the big aircraft did
what they could do S-turn or hug right, everyone should be able to
see everyone.
But I've never been in an aircraft where the pilot couldn't see an RV
parked in front of it, so I'm not sure if this would be sufficient
for the situation.
-Joe
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rv7(at)b4.ca
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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On 4:07:20 2006-08-08 Roger Embree <rembree(at)sympatico.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Surely there is enough
collective creativity here to design something telescopic that would
mount to the back side of the seat or neatly fits into the baggage
compartment. It could be named after our fallen brother.
Just one idea.
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That's a great idea, but i'll add one feature to the device you describe...
It shouldn't stick straight up. In order to be seen over the nose of a
TBM, it would need to be nearly 20' high. I suggest that it be angled to
one side, so the "flag" appears about ten feet above the left wing. That
puts it on the pilot's side of most aircraft, and possibly far enough
"off-axis" that the rear plane would be able to see it. Of course,
S-turning would help too.
-Rob
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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: oshkosh accident |
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| Quote: | I don't think we need to carry around flagpoles for our airplanes.
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I sure will not. I understand how people may want to relive the Rat Patrol
concept but it makes more sense for the big warbirds to install a forward
facing video system.
Ron Lee
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