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Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Saw this on a RV Newsgroup.



Ron Parigoris



http://www.apstraining.com/clips/skidded_turn_high.wmv  



The real problem is stalling while in an uncoordinated turn. In a normal

stall, your wing stalls near the root first - that turbulent air hits the

tail and gives you whatever buffet you're going to get, depending on the

plane. 



In a skidded turn, the stall happens further out on the wing and there's

no warning at all - the turbulent air 'misses' the tail. Worse, the first

part of the wing to stall is right out there near the inside wing's

aileron, so you basically lose that too.



The point is that even in a plane that usually gives lots of warning

before stalling, you likely won't get the same warning in an

uncoordinated, turning 'traffic-pattern-type' stall.



See very cool video here.

96victor(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Thanks Ron

  

 The video of the skidded turn is great!  I was first taught 50 years ago to always coordinate turns.  No reason was given that an emphasis was placed on landing pattern turns sans the reason why.  I have always tried to coordinate turns at all times and was not aware of the problem at low speeds. 

  

 I am not quite flying but I would like to hear the experience of you fly guys or girls if you practice it in landing configuration at altitude.  I will practice it when I fly, not just for my own learning but for others that I can preach to.. 

  

 Tom  XS/mono/Jab/airmaster/RiteAngleAoA/N96victor/EllensburgWA



 

 On 8/9/06, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us) <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us  (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us  (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>



Saw this on a RV Newsgroup.



Ron Parigoris



http://www.apstraining.com/clips/skidded_turn_high.wmv



The real problem is stalling while in an uncoordinated turn. In a normal 

stall, your wing stalls near the root first - that turbulent air hits the

tail and gives you whatever buffet you're going to get, depending on the

plane.



In a skidded turn, the stall happens further out on the wing and there's 

no warning at all - the turbulent air 'misses' the tail. Worse, the first

part of the wing to stall is right out there near the inside wing's

aileron, so you basically lose that too.



The point is that even in a plane that usually gives lots of warning

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Hello Tom



"The video of the skidded turn is great!"



Try these too:

http://www.apstraining.com/newsletterlist.htm 



I guess this forum should be renamed Training 101.



Ron Parigoris

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Ron and All,

I can appreciate what happens in an uncoordinated turns when the A/C is 

"skidding", i.e. bottom rudder, but I have always been led to believe (and 

from my personal experience), that a "slipping" turn, i.e. top rudder, is a 

safe manoeuvre and a good way to lose height rapidly.  Also a straight side 

slip, perhaps on finals to lose more height than flaps alone will generate, 

i.e. crossed controls, is safe provided the nose is raised after the 

controls are crossed and lowered before the controls are centred.  I was 

instructed and have instructed these manoeuvres (in gliding) without any 

problem and I have the belief that it is impossible to enter a spin from 

crossed controls, because the inside wing is leading.  Has anyone else been 

instructed or has instructed this as well, power or gliding?

Best wishes,

William

---

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

I just asked my instructor of 30 yrs last week about this and he said that 

the stall/spin

entry occurs on the base to final turn  because a lot of pilots are afraid 

of using too much

bank angle When they get to the bank angle they're comfortable with and

still need some more to make the turn, they will use bottom rudder to 

tighten the

turn without banking more, causing the stall just like on the video.

  My instructor also said it is safe to use top rudder causing a slipping 

turn because even

if a stall occurs, the high outside wing will stall first, then only causing 

the stalled wing

to return to level.  This can be then caught in time to stop a spin entry to 

the outside.

  I can see there could be a variety of opinions here but it seems there 

would be more time to

correct and fly out of the stall.



                                                      Glenn

[quote]From: "William Mills" <william(at)wrmills.plus.com>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:11:46 +0100




<william(at)wrmills.plus.com>



Ron and All,

I can appreciate what happens in an uncoordinated turns when the A/C is 

"skidding", i.e. bottom rudder, but I have always been led to believe (and 

from my personal experience), that a "slipping" turn, i.e. top rudder, is a 

safe manoeuvre and a good way to lose height rapidly.  Also a straight side 

slip, perhaps on finals to lose more height than flaps alone will generate, 

i.e. crossed controls, is safe provided the nose is raised after the 

controls are crossed and lowered before the controls are centred.  I was 

instructed and have instructed these manoeuvres (in gliding) without any 

problem and I have the belief that it is impossible to enter a spin from 

crossed controls, because the inside wing is leading.  Has anyone else been 

instructed or has instructed this as well, power or gliding?

Best wishes,

William

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

William

It certainly isn't impossible to spin from a sideslip. The "outside" 

wing is shielded by the fuselage so if speed gets too low the aircraft 

will flick towards the outside wing. Did it in a Condor once.

Graham



William Mills wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     I was instructed and have instructed these manoeuvres (in gliding) 

 without any problem and I have the belief that it is impossible to 

 enter a spin from crossed controls, because the inside wing is 

 leading.  Has anyone else been instructed or has instructed this as 

 well, power or gliding?

 Best wishes,

 William

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

I thought that in sideslip provided you had nose well below the horizon you

were safe - obviously not.  What happened?



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

William, For a gliding tug pilot landing over trees and slideslipping down

to round out level was pretty much routine, and I have naturally

slideslipped my Europa when appropriate (such as PFLs) I have to say that it

has always behaved impeccably and felt entirely comfortable in the

slideslip. There is a natural tendency for speed to build up in the slip

unless you go out of your way to prevent it and I think it is very unlikely

that someone would inadvertently stall in the process. Regards, David Joyce,

G-XSDJ

---

jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

You are. It's when the nose comes up that you better watch out. The plane

will do some interesing things then. Make sure you have some spin training

and go try it out up above six or eight thousand feet. When I flew the

company planes I had wondered about this so on the urging of Clive Davidson

I took the mono out one day, climbed up high and proceded to manhandle it

around mock landing approaches to see it's (and my) limits. Full rudder

slips are a joy to see but if the windscreen isn't half or more full of

green you had better push it over. I found if you had the approach trimmed

hands off you were pushing a couple pounds of down elevator to maintain a

good/safe slip.  I also found that if you did try something stupid with the

bank angle or rudder goosing it to half throttle would hold off the stall to

a much higher angle and increase your margins. (remember your power on

stalls?) 



  James T.



--

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

William

You probably would be safe if the nose was kept low, but to maximise the 

sink rate in a sideslip or slipping turn, the nose needs to be raised above 

the horizon.

In a glider I suspect the wings are long enough and the fuselage slim enough 

for the shielding effect (that Graham mentions) not to cause the trailing 

wing to stall.  I have intentionally abused gliders in both slipping turns 

and sideslips (at a safe height) without experiencing any undesirable 

results.  However, in the case of the Europa with short wings and a 

relatively large fuselage, I can appreciate Graham's point that it might tip 

towards the trailing wing if the manoeuvre is taken to the extremes. 

Although I have comfortably sideslipped my Europa on many occasions, when 

too high on the approach, without any problems, I will have to do some 

experimenting at a safe height, of course, to see what happens if I take it 

to the extremes!

Hope that helps,

William

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Nose wasn't well below the horizon, I was exploring the envelope. Plenty 

of height for recovery. This was in the days when I was gliding (and 

towing gliders) We used to have a lot of confidence in our ability to 

recover from a spin. Sometimes that confidence was unwise because 

airplanes that are hard to spin are also hard to recover. No one told us 

that!

Graham



Wiilliam Daniell wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I thought that in sideslip provided you had nose well below the horizon you

were safe - obviously not.  What happened?

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't find  sideslipping a Europa to be 

a beneficial means of losing height on the approach. That is (in addition to 

the fact that sink rate isn't  increased by much), given the lack of 

confidence in the ASI reading during a side slip, I always make sure to 

speed up a bit. That  means extra speed when coming out of the side slip and 

(if it's a short strip) a missed approach as a consequence. Or if the height 

control is needed further out on the approach, S-turns will do the job. 

Co-ordinated of course!



Duncan McF.

---

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

thanks 



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:38 am Post subject: Skidded turn traffic pattern stall video

Duncan, I find that on approach idling I have 550 fpm down (from memory) and

this increases to 700-750 down with full L. rudder side slip. Not dramatic

but if you have got a forced landing approach almost right it is a perfect

way of fine tuning. If you are way too high then S turns are the thing, but

they bring their own risks of course. Regards, David

---

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