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Engine quitting

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Graeme Toft

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 123

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: Engine quitting

Hi Guys, I am having problems with the idle on my0 subaru and have twice now had to do a dead stick landing when pulling power on0 final. Has anyone with an Ellison TBI had a similar experience. Im running on0 1200-1400 at idle and when on the ground and warming the engine up it runs fine0 but after flying for an hour or so she begins running rough at low revs and0 will quit on me if im not careful when I pull power.

  

 Regards

Graeme

Michael Logan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 82

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: Engine quitting

Graeme,

  

 Are the plugs on both sides evenly colored?  I had the0 same problem and the only thing I could find was that one side of the engine ran0 leaner than the other side.  I never could figure out what the problem was0 but I was meticulous about keeping my fuel system clean and the problem was0 minimized.  I never trusted the engine so I have very few hours on the0 plane and am in the process of putting multipoint fuel injection on the0 engine.

  

 Mike Logan

 Series 5

 NSI SHO



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com0 [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of0 QSS

Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:20 AM

To:0 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Engine0 quitting

 

 Hi Guys, I am having problems with the idle on my0 subaru and have twice now had to do a dead stick landing when pulling power on0 final. Has anyone with an Ellison TBI had a similar experience. Im running on0 1200-1400 at idle and when on the ground and warming the engine up it runs fine0 but after flying for an hour or so she begins running rough at low revs and0 will quit on me if im not careful when I pull power.

  

 Regards

Graeme

_________________
Mike Logan
Fredericksburg, VA

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: Engine quitting

This sounds suspiciously like a0 problem with a sensor. ( MAP or  O2 ) When the engine is cool the ECU0 automatically enriches the mix to keep it running smoothly.  For some0 reason it sounds like when your engine is hot the ECU is cutting your mixture0 too lean causing the roughness.  When the conversion of your engine was0 accomplished did they keep the OBD?  If so get a code reader and see what0 it says.

  

 If the TBI has an idle air0 bleed it may also be open too far giving too much air at the idle when the0 engine is fully warmed.

  

 Just two wild0 guesses.

  

  

 

Noel  	  Quote: 	
		     

    after flying for an hour or so she0   begins running rough at low0 revs

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:06 am Post subject: Engine quitting

Graeme, which engine are you using?  If it's0 the EA81 NA, your idle speeds are very low.  Engine idle with the NSI0 should be around 2000-2200 normal and down as low as 1600 on short final only0 and for only a short time.  This is not to keep it running, but to reduce0 wear on the transmission from tortional vibration.  If it still quits on0 you at the higher idle, you more than likely have an idle mixture problem. 0 The adjustment sequence is detailed in the operators manual.

 And Michael, the rich color on the pilot side is0 normal for the EA81.  This is because the manifold makes a 180 degree turn0 back to that side.  In full power and cruise, the EGTs even out nicely when0 you get the sweet spot.  Not really anything to worry about.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: Engine quitting

I agree that the idle is too low, even with a belt

drive, if you have that.



Another possibility is that you are running rich in

cruise and fowling the plugs?  Then they may not fire

well at idle.



Kurt S.



--- QSS <msm(at)byterocky.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Guys, I am having problems with the idle on my

 subaru and have twice now had to do a dead stick

 landing when pulling power on final. Has anyone with

 an Ellison TBI had a similar experience. Im running

 on 1200-1400 at idle and when on the ground and

 warming the engine up it runs fine but after flying

 for an hour or so she begins running rough at low

 revs and will quit on me if im not careful when I

 pull power.

 

 Regards

 Graeme


	


__________________________________________________

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

!200  too 1400 RPMs is fine. 1350 is what I remember as recommended. Any more and you  run the risk of floating off the end of the strip. What you have to rethink with  the Sub is running lean. You cannot go full rich on landings, just cant,  especially if you do that cross or down wind.  Just lean her out for the  power sitting you have. Remember if you have a go around you need to  do  two things instead of one,  full rich  full power. Yea, yea you  shouldn't have to do that, OK well then you need a different engine or fuel  management system. Even on the ground if you don't lean so that a quick push on  the ego stick causes her to stumble or quite she is to fat and nobody likes a  fat lady, with few exceptions .  So for the NSI/Subaru folks that's just  the way it is if you run the TBI. Might want to do the idel adjustment on a hot  engine.

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

   --

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: Engine quitting

All of that might be true for the turbo, but not  for the normally aspirated.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: Engine quitting

True I  did have the turbo version of the NSI, and I don't have the manual with me, but  the induction system, ignition  and redrive are the same. Under idle and  approach they are very similar,  no boost condition. While I don't dispute  your opinion I would strongly suggest Graeme give my suggestion a try. Did you  get those idle numbers from the manual? This is not a rotax or rotax gear box  set up. Torsional differences is why the NSI redrive was designed the way it  was. 

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

   --

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: Engine quitting

We have no problems with the Subaru Eggenfellner modifications. You could  look into using the factory original computer and installing an aftermarket fuel  pressure regulator. There are no adjustments and has been to 13000  nonturbo.

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Engine quitting

I searche for Ellison TBI and came up with a lot of hits such as below. You  could try the same search and look for similar problems.

  

 Ellison TBI Unframed!   

There was never anything wrong with the Ellison TBI.  The TBI masked a fuel header tank ... Brian installs a Ellison  TBI because it is simpler, lighter, ...http://www.eaa1000.av.org/fltrpts/q200/tbiunframed.htm

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

NSI Turbo Operating limits from Lance:



 IDLE                      1350-1400

 Cruse                     3200-4400 (3600-4000 best)

 Take off RPM (Max)      5600

 Take off (Minutes)      3

 Max continuous RPM      4800

 Never exceed RPM        5900

 

 EXHAUST GAS TEMP        

 Green arch               1350-1575

 Yellow arch              1550-1600

 Red arch                 1600



 OIL PRESSURE: (PSI)



 Red                       0-20

 Yellow                    20-35

 Green                     35-72



 Lance placed special attention to never allowing the oil pressure to fall below 20 psi.  RPM must be high enough to maintain the pressure above 20 psi.  Needed attention to this in my experience occurs when the engine is very hot.  I also have NSI's published limits for other engines, also, should anyone want them.



 Jim Crowder



 At 04:49 AM 8/13/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]All of that might be true for the turbo, but not for the normally aspirated.

 Deke

  

   ---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

Those are the limits I recieved too.  However, I use

1450 as my max EGT, 1800 rpm and 30 psi oil pressure

as my minimums.



I can see lower rpm and oil pressures when landing,

but I try to correct them ASAP.  My oil pressure gauge

flashes at me below 30 psi.  No inflight shutdowns to

date, intended or otherwise.



I can not operate in the 4000 rpm range below 1450

egt, even full rich.  I normally cruise at 32-3300 rpm

and 85 knots/98 mph.  Seems to be the prop's sweet

spot for smoothness.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   NSI Turbo Operating limits from Lance:

 

 IDLE                    1350-1400

 Cruse                   3200-4400 (3600-4000 best)

 Take off RPM (Max)      5600

 Take off (Minutes)      3

 Max continuous RPM      4800

 Never exceed RPM        5900

 

 EXHAUST GAS TEMP

 Green arch              1350-1575

 Yellow arch             1550-1600

 Red arch                1600

 

 OIL PRESSURE: (PSI)

 

 Red                     0-20

 Yellow                  20-35

 Green                   35-72

 

 Lance placed special attention to never allowing the

 oil pressure to 

 fall below 20 psi.  RPM must be high enough to

 maintain the pressure 

 above 20 psi.  Needed attention to this in my

 experience occurs when 

 the engine is very hot.  I also have NSI's published

 limits for other 

 engines, also, should anyone want them.

 

 Jim Crowder


	


__________________________________________________

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

Be very careful with pressure regulators.  I added one

to my plane and it never got off the ground.  During

testing it failed shut.  There is no fail-safe

operation that way.  One small "O" ring shut off all

fuel and I had to remove it.  If you know of one that

is fail safe, you might try it, but be careful.



Kurt S.



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   We have no problems with the Subaru Eggenfellner

 modifications. You could  

 look into using the factory original computer and

 installing an aftermarket fuel 

 pressure regulator. There are no adjustments and

 has been to 13000 nonturbo.


	


__________________________________________________

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

Kurt,

Those all look to be good conservative numbers to me.  My plane has 

never been flown enough to confirm the sweet spot, but I suspect it 

would be similar to yours.  I can say that with a hot engine, lower 

RPM's lead to lower oil pressure and hence your 1800 rpm seems about 

right.  We have just set the rpm by watching the oil pressure and 

like you, have looked for something like 30 psi.  Lance told me the 

20 psi is the absolute minimum.



I've finished my chemo treatments and am beginning to feel better.  I 

came down with a cold a few days ago, which in my vulnerable state 

has set me back a few days, but I think I will be able to get back to 

my hangar latter this week to get things going again.  The first 

three sessions went so well there was some doubt about the benefit of 

the fourth session, but in the end it was decided I would receive 

it.  I will know the result from it in about six weeks.  Even without 

it, my PSA is down to 0.21 before the fourth treatment and I do still 

have my prostate gland.  Remember all of you guys over 40, get your 

PSA screening test regularly.



I still plan to sell my current engine and total fire-wall forward 

package with the CAP and go for a 1320 gross wt. and simple 

airplane.  I have given it a lot of thought and at my age (70 in 

Sept.), it seems the smart way to go.



Jim Crowder



At 10:41 PM 8/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Those are the limits I recieved too.  However, I use

1450 as my max EGT, 1800 rpm and 30 psi oil pressure

as my minimums.



I can see lower rpm and oil pressures when landing,

but I try to correct them ASAP.  My oil pressure gauge

flashes at me below 30 psi.  No inflight shutdowns to

date, intended or otherwise.



I can not operate in the 4000 rpm range below 1450

egt, even full rich.  I normally cruise at 32-3300 rpm

and 85 knots/98 mph.  Seems to be the prop's sweet

spot for smoothness.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo

kitfox(at)ida.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

Mine will do that if the mixture screw on the tbi  is not set just right.

 Albert

   [quote][b]

Graeme Toft

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 123

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Engine quitting

I appreciate every ones input into this issue. For the moment I will try increasing the idle revs to 1600 and see what happens.   

     

Regards  

Graeme   

  

--

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