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Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

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crvsecretary(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Hello Listers:

    

   I have been (largely) lurking on this list for well over a year now and I rarely ask for help or opinions, but this time I need some advise from the collection of experts that contribute to this list.

    

   I don't need or desire to start another 'primer war', but after much deliberation and testing I chose to use 2-part epoxy primer for the interior of the wings on the 601XL.  I tested on 3 or 4 ribs and, discounting a few runs that no one will ever see, everything came out looking good.  I am VERY impressed with the way this stuff sticks to these parts with a simple lacquer thinner prep.

    

   So, what's the problem?  Despite using a charcoal-filter respirator I cannot help but think I am going to be in big trouble if I continue to use this stuff.  I'm using a small 'detail' style spray gun from Harbor Freight, but it is NOT an HVLP gun.  And, do I really need a fresh-air breathing system? 

    

   Am I an idiot for even considering this approach with the limited equipment I am using?

    

   All comments are greatly appreciated - building and priming has ground to a halt until I feel I'm doing the right thing.

    

   Thanks Again.

    

   Regards,

    

   Tracy Smith

   Naugatuck, CT

   N458XL reserved

   working on wings

    

    [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Tracy,

The organic charcoal filter's limited by atmospheric overload.  Moving 

the air helps, but to be safe, you should consider making up a fresh air 

system

from a small vacuum.  Shouldn't cost you more than $30 for the hood and 

the use of a small clean vacuum.  I got exposed when I failed to turn on my

fans in the booth.  The low pressure air system became a necessity to 

continue.  I spent about $150 in all for the whole system with extra hose.

If you're interested, try the paint page on my site at 

www.macsmachine.com.  See link,

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/paint/full/low-pressure-air-system.gif



If you have questions, just ask



Larry McFarland - 601HDS

crvsecretary(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Listers:

  

 I have been (largely) lurking on this list for well over a year now 

 and I rarely ask for help or opinions, but this time I need some 

 advise from the collection of experts that contribute to this list.

  

 I don't need or desire to start another 'primer war', but after much 

 deliberation and testing I chose to use 2-part epoxy primer for the 

 interior of the wings on the 601XL.  I tested on 3 or 4 ribs and, 

 discounting a few runs that no one will ever see, everything came out 

 looking good.  I am VERY impressed with the way this stuff sticks to 

 these parts with a simple lacquer thinner prep.

  

 So, what's the problem?  Despite using a charcoal-filter respirator I 

 cannot help but think I am going to be in big trouble if I continue to 

 use this stuff.  I'm using a small 'detail' style spray gun from 

 Harbor Freight, but it is NOT an HVLP gun.  And, do I really need a 

 fresh-air breathing system?

  

 Am I an idiot for even considering this approach with the limited 

 equipment I am using?

  

 All comments are greatly appreciated - building and priming has ground 

 to a halt until I feel I'm doing the right thing.

  

 Thanks Again.

  

 Regards,

  

 Tracy Smith

 Naugatuck, CT

 N458XL reserved

 working on wings



*



*

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Hi Tracy,



 I won't claim expertise on this subject, but I did do professional spray painting for a while and survived.



 I think the most important issues are:  What solvents are used in your paint; and are you taking sufficient precautions so that you aren't breathing the solvents.



 I don't know if the paint you are using is intended to stick to oxidized aluminum.  Most of the stuff I have seen recommends treating the aluminum with something to get rid of the oxide layer that forms almost instantly when aluminum is exposed to air.  Alodine is one such treatment, but I believe there are many other ones.  Another thing I have heard of is etching primers.  I would talk to the paint manufacturer or distributor about this issue.



 On the safety issue, the professional carbon cartridge mask should serve you well if you are also taking precautions to get the majority of fumes to flow away from you.  This is usually done with a "Paint Booth" that forces air flow out one end of the booth.  If you don't have one of these booths set up, you need to be sure the wind is blowing away from you.



 I would recommend you wear full coverage clothing and use good rubber gloves while handling paint and related stuff.  In general, you don't want to get any on you.



 I understand it is important to change the cartridges often in you mask.  If you smell anything with the mask on, it is not working correctly.



 I hope these comments help a little. I would still recommend you talk to your suppliers and read the MSDS for the material you are using.



 I don't know what HVLP systems do for your paint application process, but I am quite sure there is not a safety difference between these guns and standard ones.



 Good luck,



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 10:36 AM 8/17/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello Listers:

  

 I have been (largely) lurking on this list for well over a year now and I rarely ask for help or opinions, but this time I need some advise from the collection of experts that contribute to this list.

  

 I don't need or desire to start another 'primer war', but after much deliberation and testing I chose to use 2-part epoxy primer for the interior of the wings on the 601XL.  I tested on 3 or 4 ribs and, discounting a few runs that no one will ever see, everything came out looking good.  I am VERY impressed with the way this stuff sticks to these parts with a simple lacquer thinner prep.

  

 So, what's the problem?  Despite using a charcoal-filter respirator I cannot help but think I am going to be in big trouble if I continue to use this stuff.  I'm using a small 'detail' style spray gun from Harbor Freight, but it is NOT an HVLP gun.  And, do I really need a fresh-air breathing system? 

  

 Am I an idiot for even considering this approach with the limited equipment I am using?

  

 All comments are greatly appreciated - building and priming has ground to a halt until I feel I'm doing the right thing.

  

 Thanks Again.

  

 Regards,

  

 Tracy Smith

 Naugatuck, CT

 N458XL reserved

 working on wings

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  

[/b] 	
	
 

 -    [quote][b]

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

[quote] ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Read the Materiel Safety Data Sheets on the product.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Tracy,

  

     Found this page while I was surfing around.  Hope it's  useful. 

  

 http://www.geocities.com/snjdrvr/air_supply.html

  

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle  River, MN

 1  Corvair core acquired, seeking more.

 [quote]   --

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

I have been using the Dupont VeriPrime 615S and have found for my case, only priming the mating surfaces I use a 1" bristle brush.  I have a fan blowing the vapors away and out of the garage.  I only mix up very small batches.  



I tried using the HF air brush but it really was taking longer and making a mess.  This was done in a paint booth.



Surface prep is with ScotchBrite 7447B then a wipe down with Lacquer Thinner.  It sticks real good after I let it dry for a day.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Tracy,

  

 I don't usually respond to these discussions. You  will get almost as many opinions as there are people out there. Take what makes  sense to you and delete the rest. I'm a painting contractor. Mostly  commercial  buildings. I've done this for close to 35 years and I'm not  dead or incapacitated. I have read all the posts today on the subject of  painting. I think everyone of them has valid points. People react differently to  exposure to paint or chemicals. I spray everything outside of the shop whenever  I can. When winter comes I will probably do the same under cover, out of the  rain, then bring the parts inside to dry. It keeps the shop cleaner and the  overspray off of everything. I use an HVLP because it's easy, cuts down on the  overspray and the material used. When I'm outside I don't always wear a mask if  I can stay upwind. The "right " thing to do would be to use a good quality twin  cartridge respirator. There are cartridges for specific products you spray. Also  when you are done spraying for the day, put it back in the plastic bag it comes  in. They last longer. The bottom line is, I wouldn't let my little girl be  exposed to the same things I have. I'm probably lucky being exposed to all the  chemicals and paints I have. Some haven't been. I'm uhhhh still fairly normal.  What? Sometimes the voices tell me what to do, but I don't listen anymore. I  seem to have an airplane building obsession that won't go away.

  

 Good Luck. Be careful and follow the directions.  The manufacturers really know what they are talking about.

  

 Daaave in SSSSSSSSSSalem.

 801

  

  

 [quote]   ---

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

I said I was gonna go back to lurking for a year or  two after my long post on how people kill themselves in booths of bad design but  somehow this thing on breathing air keeps popping up.

  

 If you read the MSDS sheet on  epoxies and  polyurethanes you will discover that MOST have an ingredient called  isocynate ,polyiso, polyisocynate or something close. 

 THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SCREW  WITH.

  

 Several facts on the stuff:

  

 1. Different people get "sensitized"   to it at different levels of exposure, both  time and density. Some are very high, some are very low.

  

 2. Serious breathing problems arise when you cross  the line. Where's the line? See #1.

  

 3. Once you are sensitized there is no going back,  you are for life. Kinda like AIDS.

  

 4. Once sensitized, symptoms reoccur upon exposure  to as little as 6% (I THINK I 

 remember that number correctly,  it  was VERY low in any case) to what got you sensitized in the first  place.

  

 Remember what I said in an earlier post about  nasty stuff that has poor or no warning signs that it's coming thru the  mask?   THIS IS THE STUFF!!    It AIN'T like lacquer  thinner !!

  

 3M had a cartridge mask that was approved for the  above class of materials, the approval was contingent on you changing the  cartridges EVERYDAY. I used to GIVE the mask away so I'd get the cartridge  business. Don't know if they still sell it or not, imagine the corporate  lawyers went into rigor on that one.

  

 I got sensitized to this stuff when I worked for  DeVilbiss Co. a long time ago (maybe 1970), was down in the hold of a shrimp  boat in Brownsville TX demonstrating spraying urethane foam (it had isocynate).  Was a newbie in the business and thought I was cool wearing my new orange DeV  mask while everyone else wore proper stuff.  It took about a month to come  thru the aftermath. Admittedly the concentration was high, refer to  #1.

 I had buddies in the industry that had problems in  low concentration wearing full blown fresh air equipment.

  35 yrs later I can be in the front office of  a body shop where someone is spraying Imron on a fender on sawhorses  outside the booth and I'll come down with coughing and difficulty  breathing. I'm not dreaming this up folks.

  If you have a problem with this stuff I'm  gonna tell your wives I told you so and they will beat the crap out of you  while you are coughing and wheezing on the couch.

 LOW&SLOW  John Bolding

  

 Oh yeah,  I ran into this neat article on  corrosion control, this guy knows his stuff.

 http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/faysurface.htm

  

  

  

  

    [quote][b]

Doug Garrou

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Dear Lord no!!!! If you even allow Scotchbrite to touch your aircraft, it will immediately burst into flame!!!







Doug "Do Not Archive" Garrou

--

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

John,

  

 I think you are the real expert on the subject.  Everything you said is totally true from my experience. The guys in the  house/commercial painting industry call it lacquer poisoning. I have known  people that have nearly died from exposure to regular cabinet lacquer. After  that they cannot even be near the fumes. I have employees that seem to think  their respirator is a necklace. I used to think it was no big deal when I was  younger. The protection is available. If you don't use it, you can die. I was  really lucky. If I had the same exposure to Isocyanides that I did to clear  lacquer I would be dead. I think I'll go lurk some more now.

  

 Dave in Salem

 801

  

  

 [quote]   ---

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Tracy, I won't comment on your mental status only to say that the mask filter you are using is probably not enough for safe painting two part epoxy. When I painted my plane I built a fresh air respirator system for less than $ 50. that worked well and the photos are posted somewhere in the archives. Do as you wish, but I recommend you get something better than char coal to save your lungs. Best regards, Bill of Georgia   [quote][b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Hi Bill,



 I am not familiar with the type of breathing equipment you talk about.  However, it seems to me that the air source is crucial for such a system.  If your paint poisons happen to flow in the direction of your "Fresh" air source, then the lack of carbon filters might mean you are still getting exposure to the toxic substances.



 I still think the best advice anyone can get when dealing with toxic chemicals is to read the manufacturer's MSDS and follow the advice given there.



 Best regards,



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 07:16 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Tracy, I won't comment on your mental status only to say that the mask filter you are using is probably not enough for safe painting two part epoxy. When I painted my plane I built a fresh air respirator system for less than $ 50. that worked well and the photos are posted somewhere in the archives. Do as you wish, but I recommend you get something better than char coal to save your lungs. Best regards, Bill of Georgia 	
 

 ---------------------------------------------

 Paul Mulwitz

 32013 NE Dial Road

 Camas, WA 98607

 ---------------------------------------------

     [quote][b]

hillsgun(at)nwinfo.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Hi: I am a fairly new lurker here and I see this  same conversation coming up periodically on several aircraft lists so I thought  I would add my 2 cents worth.I began painting in the mid to late 70s for a  comercial trucking fleet where my uncle was the head paint and body man. It was  just anout that time when they began converting from using acrylic enamel to  polyurethane in our shop, and it was just becoming popular. Imron had been out  for a while but we were starting to use Durethane which is a Ditzler product. We  started with our cartridge masks and the paint manufacturers were RECOMENDING an  air fed mask which consisted of basically a standard mask with a hose connected  to it which led to a standard cartridge filter that the shop air was run thru to  give you a positive pressure mask. My uncle used one of these for a few years  bedore he retired. I continued with a standard mask for probably 15 or so years.  by then I had my own shop, still painting comercial trucks, and still painting  mainly Durethane and by then the paint reps were saying that I needed to be  using an airfed respirator. I finally bought there top of the line system  (oilless compressor, hoses, and mouth/nose mask) and  began using it.  Great system, but before I had it paid for they were telling me that I needed to  be using a full hood as the isocynates would absorb thru the soft tissue (your  eyes). Before I even purchased a hood they were telling me that that wasn't good  enough, and that I needed to be using a full suit. It was about that time that  the realization hit me that no matter what I did, if I continued to paint I was  going to die from the effects.I feel that I was fortunate and at least til now I  am not completely brain dead and am continuing with life but on the other hand  each individual has to perform there own risk analysis decisions and decide what  is acceptable for them.just be informed. Isocyinates are nasty, there is no  disputing that.If you spray them your body will tell you that you have been  around them, no matter how well you protect yourself. There are several new  waterbased paints out which are an option. I haven't used them much and have not  been impressed with the results.As an aside, I remember watching my uncle on a  regular basis take a rag soaked with lacquer thinner and use it to wipe the  paint out of his eyebrows after painting. Although now rather frail, he is still  out and about and in his 90s. I still paint my own projects, Still paint with  durethane, and it lasts and lasts for a very long time. Off my soapbox  now. Dan Hill

 [quote]   ---

crvsecretary(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety

Hello Listers:

    

   I wanted to thank everyone who responded both on and off list to my original question.  I'm glad I raised the question in that a lot of useful information was spread to all the readers of this list and hopefully someone will have thier health protected as mine will be.

    

   Taking everything written into consideration, I first downloaded the MSDS sheets and read them thoroughly.  Yes, this stuff is nasty, and the manufacturer recommends a high-quality respirator.  So, I called thier Tech Support line and got a very helpful tech who understood my situation and he recommended a lot of fresh air exchange and to try BRUSHING the parts...appearance is not an issue so I'll try it !  The adhesion and drying qualities of this epoxy primer has me looking to the future.

    

   I'll report on the results. 

    

   Tracy Smith

   Naugatuck, CT

   N458XL (reserved)

   wings 

    

   

 --

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