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Bob Brockman

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: a question

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Being a new guy, my question is concerning an aircraft similar to a Kolb.  

 Can anyone tell me about an airplane called the Ferguson FX -4-2?

 I would appreciate any comments regarding the aircraft.

  

 thanks,

  

 bob

   [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: a question

Bob 

  

 The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no  compensation or recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the design of the  Ferguson.

 As such that plane is considered a F word on this list.  Please don't ask about that plane on this list.

  

 If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would  be happy to answer any questions you have.

  

 do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc  

 [quote]   ---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: a question

Rick, although there are obvious similarities between makes, I have to 

respectfully

disagree on some points.  #1 are the myriad pushers out there that went 

for a

single boom tail.  #2 is the interesting carry-through of the tail boom 

for a cage

support.  #3 is the very well streamlined cabin wall design.

I also like the less radical airfoil.

On the minus side it appears to be less well braced in the cage area 

which is

a biggie for me.

How many airplanes look pretty much the same as a Piper Cherokee?

Most of the new LSA aircraft have the look of close relatives.

I would give any purchase a close inspection and vote with my

wallet.  A big edge for TNK is an honest, safe product, good support

and the realistic probability of being around for a while.

BB  do not archive



On 20, Aug 2006, at 10:47 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



[quote] Bob

  

 The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no 

 compensation or recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the 

 design of the Ferguson.

 As such that plane is considered a F word on this list. Please don't 

 ask about that plane on this list.

  

 If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would be happy to answer any 

 questions you have.

  

 do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc  

> ---

Bob Brockman

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: a question

The question is,

When is the Kolb going to get a nose wheel. Just don't have a heart attack!

bob



[quote]From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: a question

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:47:45 -0400



Bob



The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no compensation or 

recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the design of the Ferguson.

As such that plane is considered a F word on this list. Please don't ask 

about that plane on this list.



If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would be happy to answer any 

questions you have.



do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

   ---

Bob Brockman

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: a question

I was not aware that there were certain questions that coludn't be asked. I 

saw the article in  the August 2006 issue of Ultralight Flying and wanted to 

know how the two aicraft compare. The other people may have ripped of Kolb. 

I don't know. Thats not the question.

I have read the information on this group for month's. Its good for the most 

part but, when one person gets bent out of shape over a question....

You are entitled to you opinion.



bob





[quote]From: "BOB BROCKMAN" <packerbeagle(at)msn.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: a question

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:08:48 -0400






The question is,

When is the Kolb going to get a nose wheel. Just don't have a heart attack!

bob



>From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

>Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

>To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

>Subject: Re: a question

>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:47:45 -0400

>

>Bob

>

>The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no compensation or 

>recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the design of the Ferguson.

>As such that plane is considered a F word on this list. Please don't ask 

>about that plane on this list.

>

>If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would be happy to answer any 

>questions you have.

>

>do not archive

>

>Rick Neilsen

>Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

>   ---

Bob Brockman

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: a question

Rick,

I appreciate your reply.

This is what I was looking for whne I asked the question. I like the Mark 

III Extra very much but, saw the article and figured, I'd ask the question.

Thanks,

bob

[quote]From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: a question

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:02:43 -0400

Rick, although there are obvious similarities between makes, I have to 

respectfully

disagree on some points.  #1 are the myriad pushers out there that went for 

a

single boom tail.  #2 is the interesting carry-through of the tail boom for 

a cage

support.  #3 is the very well streamlined cabin wall design.

I also like the less radical airfoil.

On the minus side it appears to be less well braced in the cage area which 

is

a biggie for me.

How many airplanes look pretty much the same as a Piper Cherokee?

Most of the new LSA aircraft have the look of close relatives.

I would give any purchase a close inspection and vote with my

wallet.  A big edge for TNK is an honest, safe product, good support

and the realistic probability of being around for a while.

BB  do not archive

On 20, Aug 2006, at 10:47 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:

>Bob

> 

>The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no compensation or 

>recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the design of the Ferguson.

>As such that plane is considered a F word on this list. Please don't ask 

>about that plane on this list.

> 

>If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would be happy to answer any 

>questions you have.

> 

>do not archive

> 

>Rick Neilsen

>Redrive VW powered MKIIIc  

>>---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: a question

Rick, although there are obvious similarities between makes, I have to

respectfully

disagree on some points.  #1 are the myriad pushers out there that 

went

for a

single boom tail.



BB



Bob B/Gang:



Bill Ferguson, designer of the Ferguson aircraft, showed up at Sun and 

Fun 1991, with an airplane he called the Ferguson or Fergy.



Looked a lot like the mkIII kit he purchased from Homer Kolb with the 

exception of wings and changes to the main fuselage cage.  From the 

tip of the tailboom to the tip of the rudder, the Fergy looked exactly 

like the mkIII Homer Kolb had on display at S&F 2001.  Ferguson had 

not bothered to change the tail boom and tail section.  Rather than 

call this a Ferguson modified Kolb mkIII, Ferguson took credit for the 

entire airplane.  This troubled Homer Kolb tremendously.  He and the 

old Kolb crew had spent many hours and days designing a folding tail 

section that is still being produced today by TNK.



Yes, I agree, a lot of airplanes look alike.  But in this case, it 

went much further than resembling a mkIII.



In my own opinion, the Fergy is not near the aircraft the mkIII is.  I 

base this on my own personal observations of many of Ferguson's 

airplanes.  However, my most convincing observation is the flight 

history, or should I say the crash history of a close friend's two 

Fergys.  In both crashes, my friend was injured.  In the second crash, 

which occurred more than a year ago, my friend is still recuperating 

from a near death crash which broke many bones in his body and the 

body of the passenger.



First thing I look at in any airplane I plane to fly is crash 

worthiness.  The environment we fly is mighty unfriendly at times, and 

no one is immune to gravity.  I have survived several serious crashes 

in Homer Kolb's airplanes.  I have survived each of them with no 

injury.  Guess that's one of the reasons I feel more comfortable in my 

mkIII than any of the other designs out there.



john h

mkIII



PS:  Returned from Spring City, PA, last night.  Had a great visit 

with Homer and Clara.  Also was treated to the flyin of local Kolbs 

which has already been discussed on this List.  It was my pleasure to 

be able to visit with these great guys.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: a question

Oh please, "don't ask that question"? If this forum isn't for the dissemination of knowledge about Kolb aircraft or copies of it, what is its use? I admit I sometimes wonder if it's actually for the rantings of pre adolescent boys who haven't taken up masterbation yet, but that's just my take. Bob, ask away, you'll soon learn who has knowledge to share and who has crusty socks. 

On 8/20/06, BOB BROCKMAN <packerbeagle(at)msn.com (packerbeagle(at)msn.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "BOB BROCKMAN" <packerbeagle(at)msn.com (packerbeagle(at)msn.com)>

I was not aware that there were certain questions that coludn't be asked. I

saw the article in  the August 2006 issue of Ultralight Flying and wanted to 

know how the two aicraft compare. The other people may have ripped of Kolb.

I don't know. Thats not the question.

I have read the information on this group for month's. Its good for the most

part but, when one person gets bent out of shape over a question.... 

You are entitled to you opinion.

bob

[quote]From: "BOB BROCKMAN" <packerbeagle(at)msn.com (packerbeagle(at)msn.com)>

Reply-To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: a question

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:08:48 -0400

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "BOB BROCKMAN" < packerbeagle(at)msn.com (packerbeagle(at)msn.com)>

The question is,

When is the Kolb going to get a nose wheel. Just don't have a heart attack!

bob

>From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" < NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>

>Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

>To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com  (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

>Subject: Re: a question

>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:47:45 -0400

>

>Bob

>

>The Ferguson is a rip-off of the Kolb design. There was no compensation or 

>recognition for the ideas stolen from Kolb in the design of the Ferguson.

>As such that plane is considered a F word on this list. Please don't ask

>about that plane on this list.

> 

>If you would like to ask about a Kolb we would be happy to answer any

>questions you have.

>

>do not archive

>

>Rick Neilsen

>Redrive VW powered MKIIIc 

>   ---

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: a question

Hi Bob,



The plane nearest a Kolb mk III with a nose wheel might be a Rans S-12 Airiale.



It is a capable aircraft and is also well supported by the folks at Rans. The S-12 also features a chrome moly steel cage in its structure.



I have flown one here locally and it seems to be well behaved. Not having flown a Kolb Mk.III,  I cannot offer a comparison.



Good Luck with your inquiries...



Best Regards

Carlos Grageda

Firestar II

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: a question

| It is a capable aircraft and is also well supported by the folks at 

Rans. The S-12 also features a chrome moly steel cage in its 

structure.

 |

| Best Regards

| Carlos Grageda

| Firestar II



Carlos:



Best check out the Rans S-12 fuselage.  I think you will find their 

4130 fuselage is actually a 4130 tube shallow tub.  Look closely and 

you will see that all upright tubes are aluminum.  Most of the 

accident photos I have seen involving RANS S-12's results in this part 

of the fuselage failing down and forward on top of the pilot and 

passenger.



Having never flown an S-12, can not comment on its flying 

characteristics.



However, I have heard some of the earlier Rans S12's had a problem 

with empennage stability.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: a question

There is a good reason that Kolb's don't have a nose wheel: they don't need one. I know, I checked. Here are a couple pictures I made this afternoon, went out to the hangar and pulled the MKIII nosewheel assembly off the wall and took a few pictures to convince the unbelievers.



I attached it to the underside of the nosebowl, and I used the same screws that went through into the steel subframe and normally attach the nosebowl. Pitot & static air stuck out the front, with extensions coming up through the nosebowl to attach the lines to. Didn't steer, didn't figure it needed to, just wanted it to track straight ahead.



I made this when I first built the MKIII, and mostly it was because I was using a 532 that I was unsure of, out of a 750' airstrip. So when I got to the top of the hill, I locked the brakes, began to advance the throttle, and gave it a little forward stick. It obediently rocked up on the nosewheel, I went to full throttle and let'er howl for about 25 seconds. Figured if she was gonna' blow, give it a good chance to do it on the ground and not over the creek. Then release the brakes, ease back on the stick, and I was off, having departed in a tricycle gear MKIII. 



After the engine got about twenty hours on it, I decided the engine was trustworthy (or at least to the extent that a 532 is ever trustworthy) & took the nosegear off. 



I did miss the wise cracks though. "Is it a nose dragger or a tail dragger?" "I dunno, I'm still trying to decide..., maybe a few more hours..."



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: a question

I owned and flew an S12XL for over two years.  The empennage issue was

addressed and for older models they have a retrofit fix.



The cage structure is probably not as strong as a Kolb... the pilot is

a lot more vulnerable in the RANS.



The S12XL flies wonderfully.  If you fly it solo, you can get away

with a 503, but for 2-up, you'll need at least a 582, and a 912 would

be much, much better.



Compared to a Kolb MkIII, the overall mass of the S12XL feels heavier,

but the flight controls are about the same.  The S12XL cockpit/seat

was a bit more comfortable than the Kolb I have, so I'm trying to

figure out how to improve that element.



I now own a MkIIIc with a 912S.  If I had to have a tricycle gear

aircraft, it would definitely be the S12XL.  But I have my tailwheel

endorsement and the Kolb, in my opinion, is a better aircraft, by just

a bit.



  -- Robert

On 8/20/06, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  | It is a capable aircraft and is also well supported by the folks at

 Rans. The S-12 also features a chrome moly steel cage in its

 structure.

  |

 | Best Regards

 | Carlos Grageda

 | Firestar II



 Carlos:



 Best check out the Rans S-12 fuselage.  I think you will find their

 4130 fuselage is actually a 4130 tube shallow tub.  Look closely and

 you will see that all upright tubes are aluminum.  Most of the

 accident photos I have seen involving RANS S-12's results in this part

 of the fuselage failing down and forward on top of the pilot and

 passenger.



 Having never flown an S-12, can not comment on its flying

 characteristics.



 However, I have heard some of the earlier Rans S12's had a problem

 with empennage stability.



 john h

 mkIII

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: a question

The Fergy I saw looked more like a Mark II than a Mark III. I guess the 

Fergy "inventor" didn't make enough money to buy the Mark III or else there 

would be a new Fergy model. Who knows maybe he's saving up for an Xtra so 

there's still hope for a new Fergy design.

Bob Brockman

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: a question

David,

The thing that started this whole "question" thing of mine, relates to an 

article in the August 2006 issue of Ultralight Flying. The article, which is 

a full page, talks about the Fergy FX-4-2 a 2 seat LSA

candidate.

I've had several people answer my question and a couple that made me wish, I 

had closed my mouth.



Thanks,



bob

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: a question

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:18:13 -0500






The Fergy I saw looked more like a Mark II than a Mark III. I guess the 

Fergy "inventor" didn't make enough money to buy the Mark III or else there 

would be a new Fergy model. Who knows maybe he's saving up for an Xtra so 

there's still hope for a new Fergy design.

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: a question

Don't take it personally, no one means anything and appreciate the 

frankness. If anyone is keeping score they'll know I've ask my share of 

questions everyone else knew the answer to.



Hey, I'd consider a Fergy if the price was dirt cheap. I think the used 

market for knock offs is very very weak so expect a huge depreciation if you 

buy one of these and factor it in from the get go. I've never heard someone 

say I've just got to have a Fergy because it looks just like a Mark II, an 

old discontinued Kolb design. 



Wait there are two Fergies Barnstormers now, they want 18k for them!!! Ok if 

they get 18k for those, I'm all wrong and I don't know what the hell I'm 

talking about. One guy has a 503 and he's asking 17.5!!! GET REAL, it's 

worth 7k. One thing for sure, if I was selling a Kolb now I'd put it in both 

the Kolb and Fergy categories.



As for the nose wheel thing, I assume you haven't flown the Kolb 

tailwheel-fly it first, you'll love it and you'll get to be a cool tailwheel 

pilot.

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: a question

 	  Quote: 	
		   say I've just got to have a Fergy because it looks just like a Mark II, an

 old discontinued Kolb design. 


	


But a bunch of us are still flying 'em!      Which just adds to the

discussion about how good the Kolb designs are and were and continue to be.



-Ken Fackler

Kolb Mark II (and proud of it) / A722KWF

Rochester MI



do not archive

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: a question

Hi Bob,



        If you wanted to ask about a Kolb here, fine.  But I wouldn't expect 

any help with other brands on a brand-specific chat list.  You're aware it's 

a blatant rip-off now, and not just a 'look-alike' of similar configuration. 

Sorta like a Rolex bought from a street vendor.  I know of one locally that 

had a somewhat checkered past.



        Now, back to our downwind-turn and Seafoam discussions...



Ed in JXN

MkII/503





---

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: a question

Hi Richard,

  

         Why exactly  should we offer up knowledge of cheap knock-offs?  Last I looked, this is  the KOLB list.  

  

         As for  'crusty socks', now I know why my mouse acts funny.  Thanks!!

  

 Ed in JXN

 MkII/503 (Real)

  

  

 [quote]   ---

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: a question

Could the answer be : because it is polite and doesn't cost a  thing to be nice. The question was asked in innocence and really did not deserve  a violent response. Guidance would have been much more productive.

 Just a thought!

 Larry, Oregon

 [quote]   ---

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: a question

Some years back, I saw a number of Fergusons at Cartersville airport in

Georgia.  I went to a EAA or ultralight meeting (can't remember which)

there were some negative comments about the Kolbs and sort of a jealous

attitude toward the Ferguson.  I asked a couple of questions and got put

down.  Anyway, I eventually chose the Kolb Classic Mk III, it flies very

nice and I am quite proud of it.  Is it better than some other

airplanes?  To me it is one of the very best for enjoying the beauty of

flight and it seems very forgiving. Mine is not very fast, but it sure

is pleasant.  Vic in Sacramento

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