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Past Present Future

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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

In a message dated 20-Jan-06 17:01:26 Pacific Standard Time, 

BertBerry1(at)aol.com writes:

If this list was intended for JUST CURRENT Commander Owners, Drivers ...etc. 

then maybe someone should say it and get it over with.

Bert, you and everyone esle is most welcome.  We have past, present and 

future Commander owners and aficionados here: That's what makes this knowledge base 

so valuable to future and current operators.



Those of us who have been here for years value that and are worried about 

this knowledge base getting diluted -- or polluted.



I say let anyone who wants to build a better mousetrap, do so.  The hard core 

information is right here (and on Nico's server) and I forecast this is where 

it will stay.



Wing Commander Gordon

(too sane to own an airplane, not sane enough to stop participating in the 

Commander world)



Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.

dongirod(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

Wing Commander;



Your remarks about being too sane to own an airplane, reminds me of a coffee 

cup I own.  Shows an old cowboy sitting at the bar saying, "Spent most of my 

money on women and beer, the rest I just wasted!"  Not exactly sure where my 

560E comes into play!



Don

---

CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:13 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

In a message dated 20-Jan-06 21:54:09 Pacific Standard Time, 

dongirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:

"Spent most of my 

money on women and beer, the rest I just wasted!"  Not exactly sure where my 

560E comes into play!

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>

>>

Your 560-E ought to be right between beer and women.

Wing Commander Gordon

Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.

do not archive

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

Excellent, Wing Commander Gordon is in the house! Perhaps you can enlighten 

me:



I seem to have developed a bad habit, or omitted something important. Since 

I've had my airplane painted, and had new cowl latches put on (tightening 

the cowlings up quite a bit), had new antennas (antennae?) installed, 

adjusted the gear doors, and a few other things, all of which have cleaned 

up the airframe nicely (to the tune of about 6kts in cruise), I've had 

difficulty on final. I can set the power, enter the pattern, get the gear 

down, add flaps in 2 stages, and end up configured correctly at 85 kias on 

final, then give the flaps the last 'notch' to "full flaps" on 1/2 mile 

final or so, when the landing is assured, and BAM, suddenly I'm at 100kias, 

trying to slow up before I get over the fence. It feels like simply an 

attitude issue, like suddenly there's a greater pitch-down tendency than 

there used to be when I go to full flaps.



It didn't used to be this way. I used to be able to come in at ~80kias over 

the fence and make the first turnoff at 1000 feet...often having to *add* 

power to pull off the runway. I've now got ~600 hours in the airplane, so 

although I'm no pro, I'm not exactly new either.



So my questions are:



1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that 

should be in my pre-landing checklist?

2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I 

compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?

3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps 

much earlier?



Thanks as always,



/John



PS: PAO is fairly noise-sensitive so I generally have the props pulled 

pretty far back (2,100 - 2,200 rpm)....but I've flown every approach at home 

that way since I got the airplane so I can't blame it on not using the props 

as brakes.



---

westwind(at)hdiss.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: Past Present Future

I constantly monitor the list,but by the time I think of a comment other 

members jump in and say it better than I could or in the case of a 

"discusion" several people will hash it out and settle it so there is no 

need for my input. But about every 9 months or so a pressure builds up in me 

that can only be relieved by the birth of a posting, no matter how inane. 

First to Chris re: your Ode to Spam(tm) OY VEY! Next to John Vormbaum as you 

hit the full flap setting do you increase back pressure either with yoke or 

elevator trim to maintain the speed you want? It may be that with your new 

mods there is a slight difference in nose attitude that gives you a 

different windscreen picture than the one you have become accustomed to. As 

you know when you're close to the ground just a few degrees can make a big 

difference in the windscreen picture. Some day when you've got GA$ to burn 

fly over to a quiet strip and do some touch&gos with no flaps, partial flaps 

and full flaps and make mental notes of the different sound, feel and 

windscreen picture on each.....they might be close but they will be 

different.     The desert duck(at)westwind

----- ll" <john(at)vormbaum.com>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 11:27 PM

Subject: Re: Past Present Future

[quote] 



 Excellent, Wing Commander Gordon is in the house! Perhaps you can 

 enlighten

 me:



 I seem to have developed a bad habit, or omitted something important. 

 Since

 I've had my airplane painted, and had new cowl latches put on (tightening

 the cowlings up quite a bit), had new antennas (antennae?) installed,

 adjusted the gear doors, and a few other things, all of which have cleaned

 up the airframe nicely (to the tune of about 6kts in cruise), I've had

 difficulty on final. I can set the power, enter the pattern, get the gear

 down, add flaps in 2 stages, and end up configured correctly at 85 kias on

 final, then give the flaps the last 'notch' to "full flaps" on 1/2 mile

 final or so, when the landing is assured, and BAM, suddenly I'm at 

 100kias,

 trying to slow up before I get over the fence. It feels like simply an

 attitude issue, like suddenly there's a greater pitch-down tendency than

 there used to be when I go to full flaps.



 It didn't used to be this way. I used to be able to come in at ~80kias 

 over

 the fence and make the first turnoff at 1000 feet...often having to *add*

 power to pull off the runway. I've now got ~600 hours in the airplane, so

 although I'm no pro, I'm not exactly new either.



 So my questions are:



 1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that

 should be in my pre-landing checklist?

 2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I

 compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?

 3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps

 much earlier?



 Thanks as always,



 /John



 PS: PAO is fairly noise-sensitive so I generally have the props pulled

 pretty far back (2,100 - 2,200 rpm)....but I've flown every approach at 

 home

 that way since I got the airplane so I can't blame it on not using the 

 props

 as brakes.



 ---

dongirod(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Past Present Future

 	  Quote: 	
		   1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that

 should be in my pre-landing checklist?

 2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I

 compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?

 3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps

 much earlier?


	




John;



I guess its just the old habits coming through, but I put my flaps down much 

sooner.  When flying for a living, the flaps went to 15 (about half) on down 

wind and over the outer marker or glide slope interception it was full 

flaps.  True we didn't drop the gear so soon like we do in the Commander, 

but that is because of speed limits on the gear vs. flaps with this 

airplane.  In a  typical Boeing that I used to fly it was flaps 15 on 

downwind, 25 on base, glide slope movement gear down, glide slope intercept, 

landing flaps.  With both the heavies and the Commander, its very little 

throttle movement once set up.  Just my thoughts.



Don

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

Dan, that's a great suggestion. I probably have to re-learn the picture out 

the front window with the airframe changes. Thanks!



/J

---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

 	  Quote: 	
		    When flying for a living, the flaps went to 15 (about half) on down

 wind and over the outer marker or glide slope interception it was full

 flaps.


	


Hi Don,



I guess it's a shortcoming of my training; I was trained not to go full 

flaps until the runway was assured. How do all you other guys manage your 

flaps in Commanders?



/John

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

John Vormbaum wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I guess it's a shortcoming of my training; I was trained not to go full 

 flaps until the runway was assured. 


	


John,

The replies have been rather interesting and they show quite a diverse 

range of methodology.

I was taught to fly by military instructors and the 'stabilized 

approach' was always their technique.  By the time you were established 

on final approach, everything was supposed to be set up for landing. 

Fiddling with flaps, gear, etc was supposed to all complete by then.  I 

ran into a civilian instructor on a bi-annual who chastized me for that 

technique and said the same thing yours did.  Obviously it's not a 

question of right/wrong, but  just technique.  The military guys were 

constantly either pulling an engine or requiring a late go-around during 

my training which made me comfortable with a quick, last-minute 

re-configuration so I guess it all works out in the end.  I do find I 

make more regular nice landings on spot when I have plenty of time 

during a well-established approach though....



chris

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

As I was told (not as long ago as Old Bob) your landing begins at your TOD.

---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured" technique 

was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you 

lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he 

mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander will 

go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind makes it 

a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.



/J

---

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

Good Evening John,

 

Beware! -- Rant Mode Coming On!

 

That has always been one of the reasons given, but a good analysis of the  

problem shows many other ways to make a safe go around.  There is no  'one size 

fits all' answer. Many of the methods taught fifty to sixty years ago  were 

the result of WWII training expediency.

 

They didn't have time to train the pilots the full range of airmanship, so  

the training was simplified and conditions compromised. Good Old Joe saved the  

world for the rest of us using what he had been taught. When he came home, he 

 taught the rest of us the way he had been taught. Some of those Joes went 

with  the FAA and put those training expediencies in the FAA regulatory  

environment.  We have been suffering from World War Two training  expediencies for 

almost sixty years. 

 

It is time we went beyond what Good Old Joe was taught.  

 

Have you ever been told to never turn into a failed engine! That was gospel  

in many WWII squadrons. Had I turned into a dead engine when I got my  

multi-engine rating I would have failed the check ride.  Fortunately, that  one has 

been pretty well stamped out, but many others, such as: "Don't take full  flap 

until landing is assured" are still being foisted on the flying  public.

 

Rant Off

 

Do Not Archive

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

 

In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:21:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

john(at)vormbaum.com writes:



I am  beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured" technique 

 

was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you  

lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he  

mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander  will 

go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind  makes it 

a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on  approach.

br549phil(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

My two cents on flaps.    I think when you have only one running,  there is

great value in following whatever your normal approach routine might be. 

You already are dealing with one problem, keep it simple and don't add more

variables to your routine, they will only increase your workload and invite

distraction from the problem at hand. Remember that most accidents are the

result of a series of events. An engine out on a Commander need not lead to

anything worse than a low speed steering problem once on the ground.

Phil

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>

 To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 1/21/2006 7:20:09 PM

 Subject: Re: Past Present Future



 



 I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured"

technique 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you 

 lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he 

 mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander

will 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind makes

it 
	


[quote] a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.



 /J

 ---

tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

I read an accident report on a 500B that crashed on landing during  

engine out situation.

The pilots were not experienced in Twin Commanders and on down wind  

they put the gear down.

The extra drag could not be overcome and they landed about 1/2 mile  

short and in the trees.

Both pilots died.



If I was in a engine out situation, I would wait until I had the  

landing made before dropping the gear.  Once down, it is staying  

there and it will cause a lot of drag.



just my $0.02



Tylor Hall



On Jan 21, 2006, at 8:49 PM, "" <br549phil(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 My two cents on flaps.    I think when you have only one running,   

 there is

 great value in following whatever your normal approach routine  

 might be.

 You already are dealing with one problem, keep it simple and don't  

 add more

 variables to your routine, they will only increase your workload  

 and invite

 distraction from the problem at hand. Remember that most accidents  

 are the

 result of a series of events. An engine out on a Commander need not  

 lead to

 anything worse than a low speed steering problem once on the ground.

 Phil

> [Original Message]

> From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>

> To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>

> Date: 1/21/2006 7:20:09 PM

> Subject: Re: Past Present Future

>

> 

> <john(at)vormbaum.com>

>

> I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured"

 technique

> was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer  

> if you

> lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he

> mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a  

> Commander

 will

> go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind  

> makes

 it

> a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.

>

> /J

> ---

BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: Past Present Future

I agree with Phil. Single engine landings should be a non event if normal  

landing procedures are followed, including use of flaps except do not extend  

gear until you are on the glide slope or started down from a VFR traffic  

pattern. Go to final flaps when the run way is made. DO NOT add extra  airspeed 

because the plane will float when you cut the power because of the lack  of drag 

from the feathered prop.

 

It is amazing how may single engine landings end up in runway  overruns!

 

I offer training on single engine operations during recurrent  training.

 

Bill Leff

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Past Present Future

 	  Quote: 	
		  Single engine landings should be a non event if normal 

landing procedures are followed, 	


I have only lost an engine once and that was in the 685. Trimmed the plane and used my normal landing procedurs except hoding the gear up until the landing was assured. It was a non event except as John mentioned above it became a ground steering problem once I slowed to a taxi.

_________________
Milt

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