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Is a taildragger dangerous?
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:47 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Dear fellow Kitfoxers,

Just as you thought the thread about tailwheel vs. tricyle had faded away ... here I am, on the same subject!  



Here is my thinking:

Yes, if I loose control when landing, I risk a ground loop that, if done with enough speed, will damage the wing tip, the main gear, probably a nose-down with prop strike, new crankshaft ... etc. But if you have already several hundred landings on you plane, what are the chances of this happening? Of course, you can be distracted, but so can you in your car and end up on the opposite side of the road and in a front collision, which would be worse for your health than a ground loop.



Then there is the problem of crosswind. I have landed in crosswind up to 12 knots and I know it's the limit because then,  my plane windvanes at the end, when the rudder is no longer effective. But that's not exactly a ground loop, is it? The maximum you will ever windvane is 90 degrees and when already going slow. Can that damage the plane?



So if taildragger insurances are higher because the risk is considered higher, how exactly dangerous is a taildragger? Or is it simply overrated?



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

 	  Quote: 	
		  From a safety analyst, the ground loop is rarely fatal ( or even causes

minor injuries ).  However they count as an accident and therefore show up
	


on the FAA stats that insurance companies use to compare risks.  Also the

ins companies see ground loops as an additional risk they have to pay out on

for tail draggers that they don't have on a nose wheel.  As for dangerous ,

only to the airplane and your pride.





--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

On Aug 21, 2006, at 4:34 PM, kirkhull wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   However they count as an accident and therefore show up

 on the FAA stats that insurance companies use to compare risks.


	


Thank you. Yes, I know that nothing is more accurate than the insurance 

companies statistics. Taildraggers cost more to insure. Forgive me for 

not explaining better my  enquiry. I'll try again:



1) Ground loop from bad landing in good weather condition. Is it a real 

danger when you have several hundred landings on a plane you know well? 

Will I, one day, loose control without apparent reason? I have heard of 

two ground loops that needed much repairs (one Kitfox and one Avid 

Flyer) around here. But they were both first-time pilots.



2) Ground loop from crosswind landing. How bad is it? Is there a risk 

that the downwind wing touches the ground? My experience from marginal 

crosswind landing is that I end up not parallel with the runway but 

nothing much more, really. You can't do a full 360 ground loop because 

of crosswind, can you? Won't the windvaneing effect keeps from rotating 

more than into the wind?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerous?

I've seen and had personaly, more trouble with:  sheer winds, turbulance-left over from bigger aircraft, and the famous whirlwinds.  I've also had problems from the landing lights in the runways at the bigger airports, like to throw you around if your not on it good.  I feel these things would cause a problem for the triks as well, just that the mains are aft of CG so straightening out is much easier, if you have to do anything at all. don't know, haven't flown a trik kitfox. How about it you people that have triks? how do they responds when thrown around?

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

I have seen experienced pilots loose control on landing so the answer is

YES.  However there is a reason, complacency.  You must fly the plane until

it is stopped  as for the X wind the same applies. You won't do a 360 but a

180 or more is possible due to inertia.  However it is not likely.  If you

keep your head in the game you won't have any problems.  



Remember



      Aviation in its self is not inherently dangerous, however it is very

unforgiving of any carelessness



I think that's the way that old saying goes



--

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

There are some old saying in flying:

  

 RETRACTABLES: there are two kinds of pilots those who have landed gear up  and those who will.

  

 TAILDRAGGERS:there are two kinds of pilots those who have ground  looped and those who will.

  

 AMPHIBIANS: :there are two kinds of pilots those who have waterlanded  gear down and those who will.   

  

 WE fly what we need for the mission. Enjoy and be  careful.



  [quote][b]

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Taildraggers are not more dangerous - they will, however, be much less 

forgiving to the complacent pilot...but no pilot is complacent, so we 

shouldn't have a problem, right??  Bottom Line - if you are comfortable with 

your stick/rudder skills then don't opt for the training wheel, just RESPECT 

the a/c, it's limitations, and your limitations, and you will be perfectly 

safe.

Also, windvaning (aka weathervaning) will only aggravate a groundloop 

tendency, as the a/c wants to realign it's horizontal axis with the relative 

wind...and this wind direction IS the direction you will groundloop in a 

crosswind condition.

Andrew

KF3 - CFI/CFII/MEI in Progress

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:14:47 +0200

On Aug 21, 2006, at 4:34 PM, kirkhull wrote:

>However they count as an accident and therefore show up

>on the FAA stats that insurance companies use to compare risks.

Thank you. Yes, I know that nothing is more accurate than the insurance 

companies statistics. Taildraggers cost more to insure. Forgive me for not 

explaining better my  enquiry. I'll try again:

1) Ground loop from bad landing in good weather condition. Is it a real 

danger when you have several hundred landings on a plane you know well? 

Will I, one day, loose control without apparent reason? I have heard of two 

ground loops that needed much repairs (one Kitfox and one Avid Flyer) 

around here. But they were both first-time pilots.

2) Ground loop from crosswind landing. How bad is it? Is there a risk that 

the downwind wing touches the ground? My experience from marginal crosswind 

landing is that I end up not parallel with the runway but nothing much 

more, really. You can't do a full 360 ground loop because of crosswind, can 

you? Won't the windvaneing effect keeps from rotating more than into the 

wind?

Cheers,

Michel

_________________________________________________________________

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site. 

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Sometimes experienced pilots lose control on takeoff too. Stuff happens, eh?

   

  http://www.womeninaviation.com/ameliato.html

   

  do not archive



kirkhull <kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirkhull" 



I have seen experienced pilots loose control on landing so the answer is

YES. However there is a reason, complacency. You must fly the plane until

it is stopped as for the X wind the same applies. You won't do a 360 but a

180 or more is possible due to inertia. However it is not likely. If you

keep your head in the game you won't have any problems. 



Remember



Aviation in its self is not inherently dangerous, however it is  very

unforgiving of any carelessness



I think that's the way that old saying goes



--

Ben-PA

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Berwick, Pa

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

I was disappointed when I read "How to Fly a  Kitfox" by Edward Downs on page 13:

  

 "In general, a less skilled tri-gear pilot has  about the same statistical safety record as a skilled taildragger  pilot."

  

 I thought I could be better than  that.

   [quote][b]

_________________
Sign up on the Kitfox Frappr Map:
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john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

When I bought my fox in 92 I made the mistake of taking my wife into the insurance guys office, he explained to her that a tail dragger was four times more likely to have a mishap than the tricycle gear and the amphip float equipped fox like yours is 5 times more likely to have a mishap than the tail dragger.. she looked at him with big eyes and said “ our float plane is 20 times more likely to have a mishap than the tricycle gear 182 ? ” he nodded and hummm,…. Like Walter Mitty , we never did fly the floats.  

   

John Oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Baltrusaitis

 Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:46 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerous?  

  

     

I was disappointed when I read "How to Fly a Kitfox" by Edward Downs on page 13:  

    

   

    

"In general, a less skilled tri-gear pilot has about the same statistical safety record as a skilled taildragger pilot."  

    

   

    

I thought I could be better than that.  

  [quote]  [b]

RichWill

Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Southern Maine

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Tail-draggers are NOT inherently dangerous... Pilots are !!!

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

You should have asked him to be  specific on the kinds of accidents and specifically injuries incurred by float  planes.   Are we talking gear down landing in water on amphibs?  Possibly the same amphib float gear up on the runway?  How about denting a  float on a submerged rock?  or falling off a float while trying to  dock?  

  

 There seem to be more dangers  only because floats give you the opportunity to go more places.  Try them  sometime you'll love 'em!

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: RichWill [rwill1(at)adelphia.net] 

 Tail-draggers are NOT inherently dangerous... Pilots are !!!


	


Yes, Rich, I still have to hear about a taildragger doing a ground loop in the hangar! 



I understand that any pilot can get in a ground loop, if not paying attention, as Mr Denneys did. I am trying to figure out if the advantages of the taildragger is not outweighted by it's danger, and to do that, I need to figure out if, flying a taildragger as safe as I can, is good enough or if it is just a matter of time to meet the inevitable extra cost in repairs that a taildragger represents.

Motorbikes are also considered to be more dangerous than cars, yet, some bikers have been driving all their life without a single accident.



If we leave the distracted pilot on the side and consider now exclusively the problem of the crosswind and the weathervaning (that I wrongly called first windvaning, but that is rather called, weathercocking, I think), how much does it represent a danger for structural damages?



Because I don't want to try in in real-life, the only experience I have is with a flight simulator but I can't trust a computer to tell me the real thing, hence my enquiry.



In a crosswind from across the runway, in a simulator, a Kitfox with weathercock, once going slow enough to have the rudder not responding, into the wind, not any further.

It has been said on this forum that the moment of rotation will spin the plane past the wind direction. By how much?



Of course, if the plane turns 90 degrees, into the wind, the initial moment of inertia will tend to still push the plane in the direction of the runway, hence now a side force that can tip the plane on one wing tip. But I just can't reproduce that in the simulator because if the speed is slow enough to have a non-responding rudder, it is slow enough to turn 90 degrees without having a strong side force.



So, my question is: Has anyone experienced, or heard of, a taildragger that has had a wind in the ground because of a crosswind, and solely a crosswind, without the distraction of the pilot being involved?



Because if the answer is yes, then I'll ask about how putting a tiny wheel in the drooping winglets of my model 3? I know, it will make all the other pilots in the hangar laught but ... who cares? Not me!



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Noel,  

No problem here. My wife ran off with a guy that had a bigger engine. I will be buying a new set of amphibs this year and join the group with tales of wilderness experiences, fun at the dock or just those Sunday flight to the beach.  

Who many guys or gals are on floats and how many types of floats are out there now a days? I would love to put a list together. Mine were the aerocet, humm, where is Sam Goodal and does he still have the equipment to build them ?  

   

John Oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 6:29 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Is a taildragger dangerous?  

  

     

You should have asked him to be specific on the kinds of accidents and specifically injuries incurred by float planes.   Are we talking gear down landing in water on amphibs? Possibly the same amphib float gear up on the runway?  How about denting a float on a submerged rock?  or falling off a float while trying to dock?    

    

   

    

There seem to be more dangers only because floats give you the opportunity to go more places.  Try them sometime you'll love 'em!  

    

   

    

   

  

Noel  [quote]  

--

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

I have aerocets 1100 amphibs. 

 They work well  on my  IV but I would add  that they are a bit underfloated but fully operational as they are. Aerocets are  not currently being made but the molds are out there somewhere. 

 I will add that Dan Denney insisted on all SS parts  on the floats which makes them the most corrosive resistance possible for salt  water. I operate in fresh water only and have re-made parts of the landing gear  with 4130 as it's strength is far superior to the SS used on the Aerocets.  Operating off pavement and water the SS fares well but with grass operation the  gear's life decreases immensely. 

  

 I would suggest that if you are looking for floats  that you should talk to Paul Seehafer as he  very involved with floats and  he runs the seaplane base in Oshkosh.

  

  

  

 Dave

  

 [quote]   ---

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Aerocet are beautiful,  and I sold them to Dan Denney four or five years ago, thanks for the note. I will look around.  

John Oakley        

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave

 Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:21 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerous?  

  

     

I have aerocets 1100 amphibs.   

    

They work well  on my  IV but I would add that they are a bit underfloated but fully operational as they are. Aerocets are not currently being made but the molds are out there somewhere.   

    

I will add that Dan Denney insisted on all SS parts on the floats which makes them the most corrosive resistance possible for salt water. I operate in fresh water only and have re-made parts of the landing gear with 4130 as it's strength is far superior to the SS used on the Aerocets. Operating off pavement and water the SS fares well but with grass operation the gear's life decreases immensely.   

    

   

    

I would suggest that if you are looking for floats that you should talk to Paul Seehafer as he  very involved with floats and he runs the seaplane base in Oshkosh.  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

Dave  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

John:

  

 If I can find a set of Aerocet  1100 amphibs I'll sell you my straights.  I live on the beach so I use the  'Fox for sight seeing, fishing and the love of flying.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

Thanks Dave.  That's a  good idea.  I still don't relish the thought of dunking my 4130 frame  into the briny North Atlantic  my frame isn't powder coated and you can  never be sure you got all the salt out.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

starlaker

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

This thread has so many replies that I felt I should offer my experience as an example.

 

 Prior to flying my Classic 4 (w/914 ul) I had about 120 hours Total Filght  Duration (mostly in 152's but included 7 hrs in a J3 for tailwheel endorsement).  33 of these hours were PIC time.  I also had 3 hrs dual time in a 912 powered Classic 4.

 

 Since then I have flown 6061D over 100 hours and made over 200 landings (20% wheel, 80% 3-point) all on pavement.  A few of the landings have been hard because I didn't judge the distance from the ground correctly, and I done some bounding, but once the airplane stopped flying  I have had no problems controlling it on the ground.  I have avoided crosswind takoff and landing when possible, but have managed OK when I had to land crosswind.

 

 This is not to say I won't ground loop of have some control problems in the future,  only that a fairly inexperienced pilot can safely fly a tail wheel airplane under routine conditions.

 

 I want to emphasize that I am no "top gun".  My piloting skills are average at best.  The only asset I have, and this is questionable, is close to 1,000 hours is kayaks steered with rudder peddles.  So I've had a lot of practice steering with my feet.

 Dick D'Archangel

 Classic 4 912 ul

 

 Ben Baltrusaitis wrote:

 [quote]            I was disappointed when I read "How to Fly a Kitfox" by Edward Downs on page 13:

    

   "In general, a less skilled tri-gear pilot has about the same statistical safety record as a skilled taildragger pilot."

    

   I thought I could be better than that.

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	
 [b]

_________________
Dick D'Archangel
Classic 4 6061D

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerous?

a-men



--

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