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Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The first link to chevron was dead so it sent me to their search page.


	


Apparently, it picked up a "%3E" on the end somehow.  This is the correct link:



<http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/aviationfuel/9_ag_specsandtest.shtm>



 	  Quote: 	
		  The second 

page...<<http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/GArticles/octane.html> >...said 

exactly what I've been saying on this thread. Any fuel that has more 

resistance to detonation than octane will have an octane rating 

higher than 100.


	


I guess you missed this part:



"HOW DO THEY GET OCTANE NUMBERS ABOVE 100?



"Often it's done by pure extrapolation. A more reliable method, 

however, is through the use of so-called performance numbers. 

Briefly, these are arrived at by determining the instantaneous mean 

effective cylinder pressure (IMEP), using the fuel under test, at the 

highest boost that does not cause knocking. This number is then 

multiplied by 100 and the resultant is divided by the IMEP at the 

highest boost that does not cause knocking on the 100 octane 

equivalent fuel.



"Note that, technically, there is no such thing as an octane number 

above 100. If you're at a party, avoid saying things like '110 octane 

gasoline' because people will get up and walk away from you. You 

should say, instead, 'a gasoline with a performance number of 110.' 

That will bring the help scurrying over with more champagne."



 	  Quote: 	
		  I guess to try to cut to the quick of it is that it looks to me that 

you are trying to compare apples to oranges.


	


I don't know why you think that.  I just pointed out the definition 

of octane rating versus other performance ratings.  I have no agenda 

on volatility or flash points.



Mike G.

N728KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Noel



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 "Often it's done by pure extrapolation. A more reliable method, 

 however, is through the use of so-called performance numbers. 

 Briefly, these are arrived at by determining the instantaneous mean 

 effective cylinder pressure (IMEP), using the fuel under test, at the 

 highest boost that does not cause knocking. This number is then 

 multiplied by 100 and the resultant is divided by the IMEP at the 

 highest boost that does not cause knocking on the 100 octane 

 equivalent fuel.


	


**I agree.  This is factual.  And what they are getting at is a rating is

simply a comparison.



 	  Quote: 	
		   "Note that, technically, there is no such thing as an octane number 

 above 100. If you're at a party, avoid saying things like '110 octane 

 gasoline' because people will get up and walk away from you. You 

 should say, instead, 'a gasoline with a performance number of 110.' 

 That will bring the help scurrying over with more champagne."


	




**Viva La Champagne!  Can I get dark rum with that?  Technically we are

getting into semantics a bit but you're right again.



 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't know why you think that.  I just pointed out the definition 

 of octane rating versus other performance ratings.


	




**I believe your word was octane <<percentage>> I was talking about "rating"

so extrapolation or mathematical assessment is all that is available.  E.g.

Some gasoline available today may not have any octane at all.   Would their

octane rating be  "0"???,  How does one then assign an octane rating to

ethanol???  Is there any heptanes in 100 octane gas, or should I call it

motor fuel??

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  **I believe your word was octane percentage I was talking about 

"rating" so extrapolation or mathematical assessment is all that is 

available. E.g. Some gasoline available today may not have any 

octane at all. Would their octane rating be "0"???...


	


This is going to take a long time if I have to keep spoon-feeding the 

article to you one paragraph at a time.  The first sentence says 

<http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/GArticles/octane.html>:



"The octane number assigned to a motor fuel has very little to do 

with the actual chemical "octanes" in the fuel..."



My use of the term "percentage" referred to the percentage of 

iso-octane to heptane, which is the definition of "octane rating," 

not octanes as a substance.



 	  Quote: 	
		  How does one then assign an octane rating to ethanol???


	


 From the same article:



"...you run your reference fuel, made up of various proportions of 

heptane and iso-octane through the ASTM-CFR. You keep varying the 

proportion of heptane to iso-octane until you get a fuel that behaves 

just like (knock-wise) your mystery fuel. Once you get that, you say 

to yourself 'How much heptane did I have to add to the iso-octane to 

get the mixture to knock in the ASTM-CFR just like my mystery fuel?' 

If the answer is, say, 10% heptane to 90% iso-octane, your mystery 

fuel has an octane number of 90...



"HOW DO THEY GET OCTANE NUMBERS ABOVE 100?

Often it's done by pure extrapolation. A more reliable method, 

however, is through the use of so-called performance numbers. 

Briefly, these are arrived at by determining the instantaneous mean 

effective cylinder pressure (IMEP), using the fuel under test, at the 

highest boost that does not cause knocking. This number is then 

multiplied by 100 and the resultant is divided by the IMEP at the 

highest boost that does not cause knocking on the 100 octane 

equivalent fuel."



Mike G.

728KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

 	  Quote: 	
		   "The octane number assigned to a motor fuel has very little to do 

 with the actual chemical "octanes" in the fuel..."


	


** That is the reason that it is possible to have an octane rating of more

than 100.



Now about that Champagne.....

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

I always looked at octane ratings as just a number based on some math that 

never mattered to me. Very much like proof numbers on your dark rum it has 

some relationship to a percentage and more may be better depending on your 

goal. Now, how do we keep either from destroying our tanks and plumbing!

---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		    > "The octane number assigned to a motor fuel has very little to do

  > with the actual chemical "octanes" in the fuel..."



** That is the reason that it is possible to have an octane rating 

of more than 100.



Now about that Champagne.....


	


Sorry Noel, no champagne for you 

<http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/GArticles/octane.html>:



"Note that, technically, there is no such thing as an octane number 

above 100. If you're at a party, avoid saying things like '110 octane 

gasoline' because people will get up and walk away from you. You 

should say, instead, 'a gasoline with a performance number of 110.'"



Lowell sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  At least the rest of us understand.


	


Thanks Lowell.  



Mike G.

N728KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

No where in that piece did it say the octane number can't go above 100.  It

did say it was an empirical measurement (based on observation or theory,

Concise Oxford Dictionary)



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  No where in that piece did it say the octane number can't go above 100.


	


I don't know what you are smoking, Noel, but it must be good stuff. 

I copied this DIRECTLY from the article:



  > "Note that, technically, there is no such thing as an octane number

  > above 100.



Mike G.

N728KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Haven't had a cigarette in sixteen years .... But I did have a cigar this

weekend ( the first one in about 15 yr.)  



Technically you may be right practically tell that to all the guys who

burned tons of octane 110-115



Technically by that definition if the fuel doesn't have iso-octane in it the

octane rating is zero



Technically they're playing with semantics.



Cheers,

Noel



P.S. Think I'll go flying 8^}



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

valley361(at)centurytel.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

List,



        Way back when in mechanics school at Navy Memphis, students were

told that fuel ratings above 100 were performance numbers. 115/145, 100/130,

rich and lean.

        As for Newfoundland. I spent a lifetime there one year (Argentia).



do not archive                            Jay C.



---

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

Jay,



I flew those fuel ratings for 25 years in the Navy and never knew  

what they meant. We learn so much late in life, mainly that the  

things we knew for certain when we were young were entirely wrong,  

and the that the things we know now represent only our current state  

of understanding, certain to change if we live long enough.



Lyle



Do not archive.

On 08 23, 06, at 9:01 PM, Jay Carter wrote:



[quote] 

 <valley361(at)centurytel.net>



 List,



         Way back when in mechanics school at Navy Memphis, students  

 were

 told that fuel ratings above 100 were performance numbers. 115/145,  

 100/130,

 rich and lean.

         As for Newfoundland. I spent a lifetime there one year  

 (Argentia).



 do not archive                            Jay C.



 ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks

I spent a year in Placentia...You know where that is.  We, the construction

crew I was on, used to hit the club on base every Friday afternoon.  D(at)#$ if

I can remember the name of it.  Maybe the Windjammer.



I once had a conversation with a "Full Bird Colonel who said they used

Argentia to re-introduce service men to civilization after particularly hard

isolated postings like Greenland.



Not the end of the world.... But you can smell it from there ;^}



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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