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Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Ken sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think I read...the nose wheel Kitfox can take off and land a 

little shorter than the tailwheel version because of the ability to 

get a little more rotation and thus a greater angle of attack.


	


The difference in rotation angle is probably slight.  The tail could 

only go down a few inches further without the tail wheel which is 

probably only a few degrees.  On the other hand, with the wing at a 

neutral pitch angle, there is probably less aerodynamic drag for the 

nose wheel version during the ground roll.  How does the rolling 

friction of a nose wheel compare to any given tail wheel?  Who knows?



On landing, the nose wheel pilot can pretty much stomp on the brakes 

as hard as he likes without fear of a prop strike, while the tail 

wheel pilot may lift the tail with heavy braking.



Theoretical discussions aside, on a hot day my nose-wheeled, 

912S-powered Model IV-1200 Speedster could get off the ground in 120 

feet with me and a full load of fuel on-board at a 1500' field 

elevation.



Mike G.

N728KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

The brakes on my model III-A won't even hold the plane at full throttle.. I

doubt they could cause a nose over even with full application.  One of these

days I'll get to try out the wheels.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shoeless(at)barefootpilot
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Mike wrote:

"The difference in rotation angle is probably slight.  The tail could

only go down a few inches further without the tail wheel which is

probably only a few degrees."



Mike,

The difference is that the maingear on the Tri is farther aft, this has the

effect of raising the front end of the plane farther when the tail is all

the way down. This allows the wing to sit at a higher angle of incidence

compared to the tailwheel plane.



As far as braking, who cares if the Tri gear plane can brake harder than the

TW plane, you could only do it on an improved runway and there isn't much

need to do so there. They are all long enough to require no braking at all.

The real issue is which plane can brake harder and stop quicker on rough off

airport landings. TW wins hands down.



John Anderson's comment about low speed drag on the take off roll is right

on, the difference is likely minimal.

Best regards,

Cliff

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I am sure that  Mike knows all about rough field landings in a tri gear from 

what I have read.

120 foot TO in a speedster is impressive, my long winged IV will only do 

about 200 foot TO on hot day with  no wind at  1000 asl. and weighs under 

600 lbs.





Dave

---

mike
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I think we need to have a poll as to how many of us actually land in a rough off field.  I don't.  Currently 100% is ashphalt.  Off field, or the boonees landing is very risky and I concider most to be extrem flying.  Am I the only one that takes safety seriously and determines yes or no to a landing site.  Sure some of us are thinking, what if the engine quites.  I say, that's not a normal.  



My definition of extrem is daredevil.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I fly off grass 98% on wheels when no snow

I fly off 98 % skis when there is no snow and sometimes on just grass with 

skis.( straight skis only )

I fly off water and asphault and grass strips when on amphibs

I have practiced forced approaches since I started flying over 25 years ago 

and have had 4 forced landings.

- one engine failure  - homebuilt

-one carb  came loose and engine failed  homebuilt

-one lost power on TO in 172 and deadstick back to airport

- one prop failure ( blade departed) and landed in field  with engine just 

barely attached.



all the above  -- no damage to landing gear or anything other that the last 

prop failure where the windshield blew out and firewall got partially torn 

away from engine shaking around.



moral of story is practice certainly helps in realtime.



same story for spins -- if you cannot demostrate and be proficient then just 

a course in "awareness " does not necessarily cut it. How many get killed 

from stall/spin accidents yearly but only instructors need to train for them 

?

Dave



---

mike
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Now don't anybody get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with landing off field.  It's when you take it to the next level and land where no airplane should land type of thing.  I remember when I snomobiled and the people I went with gradually got into extrem I mean extrem sleading.  I think the billy goats would shake from some of the crap these guys did.  I mean, going up mountain sides almost straight up, and then go back the way they came in but not just easing it back down, I mean running wide open and jumping over the edge, these guys also caused avalanches and they rode the fricken avalanches.  This is when I quit snomobiling.  



I want flying to be fun, I fly 200 hrs a year, and try and do different things to make it fun.  But to land into one way strips and land on sand bars and into a strip that even my truck wouldn't be able to handle. Well, do I need to say any more.  



I would like to know how many people really do this kind of flying on this list.

rdmac(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Mike,

	Count me as one that lands 100% on asphalt or better still concrete.

Sense I'm still flying the 40 hours off my plane; I haven't had or made the

push to try grass yet. I have landed on grass and enjoyed it very much, just

not in the Kitfox. I will some day but sense I'm a "lazy" pilot:) I haven't

gotten around to it yet. By the way you might consider me, too safety

conscious.

 

	Roger Mac

	S7/912s (trigear)

DO NOT ARCHIVE

--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

With a  prop lost you have to be one of the luckiest guys around.  I'm

curious as to the type of plane and prop that was.... I'm not looking for

brand names just general info.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I like floats.  Now I'm out of the SPAM CAN I trained on I haven't turned a

wheel.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

If I see a creek bed or river bar or field strip big enough to get in and 

out then i try it . That is what these planes are for short field and fun . 

when you start talking safety try driving down the freeway and see how safe 

you are . use good judgement and if you are secure in your abilities to get 

into and out of short rough fields then by all meens DONT TRY IT . But if 

you want to experience what the plane can really do then try it , you will 

love it .



John flying safe flying low flying slow .

Kitfox 2 N718PD

582

gsc/ivo inflight

soon to be on floats



---

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Its called flying in ALASKA if you want to go anywhere there and fish and 

hunt and have fun for the weekend . Yes there are so called civilized 

airstrips but to land on the beach or river bar and fish for several hours 

and enjoy the sights AHHHHHHHHHH that is the life i miss most now that i am 

in so called civilized America .



John

Kitfox 2

N718PD

---

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I have not landed the fox on grass yet but will as soon as the 40 are done.

Short strips are no place for test flights but I don't thank that a grass

strip is unsafe and would almost argue the other way.  I'm pretty sure that

everyone on the list would consider me safety consensus as I am a former

Safety analyst for a major airline, And now in the insurance world

--Original Message-----

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger McConnell

Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:21 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger

dangerous






Mike,

	Count me as one that lands 100% on asphalt or better still concrete.

Sense I'm still flying the 40 hours off my plane; I haven't had or made the

push to try grass yet. I have landed on grass and enjoyed it very much, just

not in the Kitfox. I will some day but sense I'm a "lazy" pilot:) I haven't

gotten around to it yet. By the way you might consider me, too safety

conscious.

 

	Roger Mac

	S7/912s (trigear)

DO NOT ARCHIVE

--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Cliff sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...maingear on the Tri is farther aft, this has the effect of 

raising the front end of the plane farther when the tail is all the 

way down.


	


You're right Cliff, I hadn't thought about that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...who cares if the Tri gear plane can brake harder than the TW 

plane, you could only do it on an improved runway and there isn't 

much need to do so there.


	


That all depends on what you are landing on.    There are lots of 

hard-packed dirt runways here in the southwest that are very short. 

The question was, though, why would a nose wheel 'fox take off and 

land shorter.  I simply offered some comments on why that might be 

the case.  Obviously it has everything to do with the situation and 

the pilot's skills.



As for rough field operations, I would say the same is true: it 

depends entirely on the situation.  I've seen taildraggers ground 

loop or flip over as a result of catching a main or two in a rut and 

I've seen nose wheel 'foxes land on some impossibly nasty terrain and 

vice versa.  When you land on unimproved strips you are, in a sense, 

rolling the dice.



Mike G.

N728KF

shoeless(at)barefootpilot
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Mike,

You are right about the short dirt strips... my apologies. In fact I have 

landed on some of those. The Trigear plane has the potential to land shorter 

for the same reason it can take off shorter, wing angle. However, on landing 

in a TW plane you can get the angle needed to fully stall it, but you will 

be touching the tailwheel down first. Not something I like doing on rough 

landing spots.



I have no doubt that in the hands of skilled pilot a Tri gear plane can be 

landed on some really rough spots, I just think that, in general, a TW plane 

is a better platform for that kind of flying.



Rolling the dice?? Well, without the skills and/or without the proper 

precautions, sure. But lots of practice in a tamer environment first with 

lots of caution and good judgement, off aiport op's can reach an acceptable 

level of risk. (note I didn't say safetly, there's no such thing, IMHO) I'm 

sure you "drag" your landing spots first, from several directions. Then test 

the surface to see how feels. This can go a long way toward minimizing the 

risk.

Best Regards,

Cliff

Cliff sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...maingear on the Tri is farther aft, this has the effect of

raising the front end of the plane farther when the tail is all the

way down.


	


You're right Cliff, I hadn't thought about that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...who cares if the Tri gear plane can brake harder than the TW

plane, you could only do it on an improved runway and there isn't

much need to do so there.


	


That all depends on what you are landing on.    There are lots of

hard-packed dirt runways here in the southwest that are very short.

The question was, though, why would a nose wheel 'fox take off and

land shorter.  I simply offered some comments on why that might be

the case.  Obviously it has everything to do with the situation and

the pilot's skills.



As for rough field operations, I would say the same is true: it

depends entirely on the situation.  I've seen taildraggers ground

loop or flip over as a result of catching a main or two in a rut and

I've seen nose wheel 'foxes land on some impossibly nasty terrain and

vice versa.  When you land on unimproved strips you are, in a sense,

rolling the dice.



Mike G.

N728KF

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Hi Noel,



For legal reasons and ongoing litigation I cannot disclose too much.

I will say it was a single engine landplane flying  1000 agl at cruise when 

what seemed like a shotgoun went off in my face.

Windshield cracked and part departed as well as parts of the cowl and 

spinner as well as one blade.



I was over a grass strip at the time but opted for a field that had a better 

approach and longer.

Landing was un-eventful and plane was dismantled and loaded on trailer.



Luckily this was over a rural area and not over a city.  I had just come 

from a control zone and enroute to another.

ELT was turned off luckily or it would surely of gone off and then a report 

would have to been filed.



Dave

---

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

Living in Northern Ontario means you have access to many off field landing

sites. As part of my basic training (Albeit from a certified Bush Pilot

instructor) some of the first things I learned were how to evaluate the

length and acceptability of any proposed landing site. As we often have to

land on relatively short lakes with high trees etc on the approach I was

taught to arrive high and side slip to landing so that you have plenty of

reserve energy in case of engine problems or for a go around if required.



Probably 80% of my landings are on short grass strips and 10% on various

fields and lakes. In winter I do a lot of ice fishing on remote lakes (skis)

and many of the better fishing sites offer higher levels of difficulty but

as long as you have practiced short field landings and departures I really

don't believe the risk is higher - it's just a matter of practice and

confidence. 



That being said if I have any doubts about the suitability of the site ie)

obstacles or soft patches I give it a wide berth. I certainly don't take

risks I just use the attribute of the Kitfox in a way I think they were

designed. 



I find myself concentrating a lot more when landing on tarmac than I do

approaching a small grass field.



Regards



Gary Algate

Model 4 /Jab2200



--

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

 	  Quote: 	
		  ELT was turned off luckily or it would surely of gone off and then a report would have to been filed. 	




Is that such a bad thing?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Is a taildragger dangerousIs a taildragger dangerous

I changed out a ground adjustable wood prop last year.  The company that

manufactured the prop gave it a five year 500 hr. which ever comes first

TBO.  The prop was close to 15 yr.  Being a coward at heart I decided to opt

for a new composite unit.



That was my reason for asking for a few more particulars.  



I have intentionally not mentioned the names of the manufacturers here so

you won't, by accident, compromise any legal actions. 



Thanx

Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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