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Getting out of an overturned XL

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2thesky

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 18

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you were unlucky enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground?  I was showing my wife some pictures from the open hangar day and this was the first thing she asked me.  This is most likely because a couple of months ago, my wife and I were driving home from the grocery store when we witnessed our neighbor flip his Champ while trying to land at his backyard strip just before a storm hit.  The winds were very stout and varying up to 180 degrees.  He said that as he flared, he all of a sudden got a very strong tailwind that flipped the plane.  He wasn't hurt, fortunately.  Interestingly enough, the actual flipping of the plane wasn't too hard on the plane.  What really tore it up was the hail and wind storm that hit minutes after he had landed.  It started almost immediately after we made it to the airplane from the road.  Three other neighbors made it to him before we made it across the pasture on foot, probably less than two minutes.  The wind flipped the plane back onto it's wheels and then up onto the left wingtip where it stayed for a second just before cartwheeling back onto the tail.  It came to rest up against the door of his barn, which scared one of his racehorses that was injured in the process while trying to get away from the approaching "monster."  My wife and I, another man that lived next to the pilot, and the dazed pilot had to just basically stand there an watch.  He has an extensive repair to do.  He told us how dumb he was for just continuing to fly around his patch doing touch and goes knowing there was a storm coming.  He figured he was already in the pattern and that he could land before it hit.   I guess this is what caused my wife to ask me about what you could do to get out of an XL if it were flipped over.  I hadn't really thought about it.  Anyone ever had to get out?  Just curious.  Would that affect my decision to build an XL?  No, I don't think so....it's too pretty of an airplane that performs very good for the money, but I cannot think of how I would get a 700+ pound airplane lifted up enough to get out of the flip-up canopy. 



Nate in OK

_________________
Every takeoff is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

All I have to go on is the picture at:



www.ch601.org/stories.htm



Based on that I think I could get out of the plane if I broke the canopy

into fairly small pieces (with some sort of escape hammer?). Not sure how

fast I could do this if the plane was on fire.



-- Craig

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

Your wife has a valid concern in whether or not you could get out from under an overturned XL.  I've read many posts on the RV list, praising the sliding canopy vs the front opening for just that reason.  Problem is, the sliding canopy isn't all that much safer according to Van.  Think about it, your airplane is upside down.  Where are you going to slide the canopy to?  Doors aren't much better, as most airplanes tend to shrink vertically as you stack them on their heads.  The doors are often times jammed tightly shut.

    The bottom line is, carry a hammer or safety extraction device to break the plexi.  It doesn't take much of a whack to break it.  Just a few hits and you've got $500 worth or pretty plastic beads.

    As for lifting a 700 lb airplane off of you, you're not actually lifting all 700 lbs.  A significant portion of that is in the nose.  The tail actually  weighs very little.  Taking into consideration the lever advantage you'll gain in just lifting the tail, it's do-able.  You may not need to lift it at all, as there's a significant space created between the top of the baggage compartment and the cockpit.  It should be enough to slip through.  If not rolling the plane left or right, rather than lifting it, would seem to be the best idea.

    

    



2thesky <biggerspurs(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky" 



Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you were unlucky enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground?  I was showing my wife some pictures from the open hangar day and this was the first thing she asked me.  This is most likely because  a couple of months ago, my wife and I were driving home from the grocery store when we witnessed our neighbor flip his Champ while trying to land at his backyard strip just before a storm hit.  The winds were very stout and varying up to 180 degrees.  He said that as he flared, he all of a sudden got a very strong tailwind that flipped the plane.  He wasn't hurt, fortunately.  Interestingly enough, the actual flipping of the plane wasn't too hard on the plane.  What really tore it up was the hail and wind storm that hit minutes after he had landed.  It started almost immediately after we made it to the airplane from the road.  Three other neighbors made it to him before we made it across the pasture on foot, p!

 robably less than two minutes.  The wind flipped the plane back onto it's wheels and then up onto the left wingtip where it stayed for a second just before cartwheeling back onto the tail.  It came to rest up against the door of his barn, which scared one of his  racehorses that was injured in the process while trying to get away from the approaching "monster."  My wife and I, another man that lived next to the pilot, and the dazed pilot had to just basically stand there an watch.  He has an extensive repair to do.  He told us how dumb he was for just continuing to fly around his patch doing touch and goes knowing there was a storm coming.  He figured he was already in the pattern and that he could land before it hit.   I guess this is what caused my wife to ask me about what you could do to get out of an XL if it were flipped over.  I hadn't really thought about it.  Anyone ever had to get out?  Just curious.  Would that affect my decision to build an XL?  No, I don't think!

  so....it's too pretty of an airplane that performs very good !

 for the 



money, but I cannot think of how I would get a 700+ pound airplane lifted up enough to get out of the flip-up canopy. 



Nate in OK



--------

Every takeoff is [quote][b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

That's why I will always bring my pet armadillo along in the plane. I'll break the canopy, and he's great at digging out.... all I have to do is follow him. Is that teamwork or what? I haven't tested whether or not he digs any faster when there's fire but I'd have to think it would motivate him.



Ed Moody II



---- Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 All I have to go on is the picture at:

 

 www.ch601.org/stories.htm

 

 Based on that I think I could get out of the plane if I broke the canopy

 into fairly small pieces (with some sort of escape hammer?). Not sure how

 fast I could do this if the plane was on fire.

 

 -- Craig

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

I bought a combination hammer/hatchet/nail remover tool form Harbor  

Freight that I carry in the cabin. It has a hatchet blade on one  

side, a hammer head on the other side and a nail puller claw sticking  

out the end. I use the hammer side for driving tie down stakes and  

tent stakes, and have used the nail puller claw to dig the dirt out  

of tie-down pad-eyes. I figure I can use the hatchet blade to break  

the canopy and get my self out. If all else fails, I could probably  

punch through the aluminum skin pretty quickly to get out.



Actually, if you flip over the plane, the canopy will probably be  

cracked open anyway. Then you just have to kick out the broken pieces  

and crawl out.

On Aug 24, 2006, at 2:28 PM, 2thesky wrote:






Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you  

were unlucky enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground?  

about what you could do to get out of an XL if it were flipped over.



-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Phyrcooler

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 9

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Getting out of an overturned XL

Actually - it is ironic that this discussion started.  I am currently comparing various LSA/kits as well as the development of the new LSA's from RAN's and VAN's.  There are some features of the XL that I like - but an area of concern is the lack of roll-over protection.  Any prior discussion on this?  Has anyone put in a rollbar?  What is the history of the 601's in regards to ending up the wrong way up?



Frankly, I am less worried about getting through the canopy, than I am about supporting the weight of the bird on my head and shoulders.  Even more so is a desire to still be alive to not be enjoying the experience if I were to be in this predicament.

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

I think that if you look at the photo I linked to the supporting hoops

behind the seats did not collapse. I believe someone on the list actually

inspected that particular plane after it flipped. So maybe they can provide

more information.



www.ch601.org/stories.htm



Van's is featuring the roll bar in the (unreleased) rv-12 but (judging by

the small photographs on the Van's site) I don't see any more roll-over

protection in the pictures of the rv-3, rv-4, rv-6, rv-8 or rv-9 than the

601XL has. In most of these I see a single, large-ish tube between the

fixed, forward portion of the canopy and the rear, movable portion. I would

predict that the two interlocked tubes on the XL would be less likely to

fold forward or backward. Can anyone with more hands-on knowledge of the

various Van's models comment? Any pictures out there of flipped rv's?



-- Craig

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

I know of one case where a 601XL ended up on its back during a forced  

landing. The nose-wheel dropped in a hole and the plane flipped over.  

The pilot walked away in good shape though. This subject has been  

discussed before on this list, check the archives for rollover  

protection and roll bars.

On Aug 25, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Phyrcooler wrote:






There are some features of the XL that I like - but an area of  

concern is the lack of roll-over protection.  Any prior discussion on  

this?  Has anyone put in a rollbar?  What is the history of the 601's  

in regards to ending up the wrong way up?



-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

Well believe it or not I was actually asked to remove that picture a

year or so ago by another builder. Heck I'm leaving it on, that 601HD

took a hell of a beating and stayed in that spot, in that condition for

6 mos before the airport had it removed. I have also talked to Chris

Heintz about this possibility and he has stated (much like you see in

the picture) that the design of the Rudder is such that it will absorb

most of the impact and crush absorbing most energy. The tubes over the

turtle deck along with that tube holding a thick canopy will absorb most

of the rest of the impact if need be. One thing I can truthfully say

after seeing Jon's plane is that Chris designed smartly, parts crumple

to allow survivability and strength is built in with functionality , the

Chris Heintz method of course.



cdngoose

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: Getting out of an overturned XL

Why in the world would another builder ask you to remove that picture??



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

Do Not Archive

---

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