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Jim Ballenger
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia
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 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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Fellow Kolbers
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Let me set the scenario.
Engine Rotax 582 Blue head with 85 hours.
Fuel used Hours 0 - 73 BP 93 MBTE
Hours 74 – 85 BP E10
Oil used Pennz oil for air cooled engines
I had an engine out on take off a few weeks ago in my 582 powered MK III X. It happened on a Saturday morning around 8. As usual, I completed my preflight and started the engine. I let it warm up at around 2800 rpm before I taxied to the runway for my run up. By the time I got to the runway run up area my water temp was around 150 and my CHT was 180 or so. I increased my rpm to 3500 to do the mag check. By the time I had completed the mag check, the CHT was 200 and water was at 155. Everything looked good so I took the active runway and took off. I was climbing at 65 mph IAS at a rate of 800 fpm. At 300 feet my engine suddenly stopped. I nosed over and landed straight ahead without incident. As soon as I was on the ground and off the runway I got out of the plane and looked at my carb bowls, they were both full of clear BP 93 with 10% ethanol. I turned the engine over by hand and noticed the compression was not as strong as usual. At that point I figured the engine had seized on me so I got back in the plane and started it to taxi back to the hangar and let it cool off. The next morning I removed the exhaust manifold and found evidence of a cold engine seizer in the front piston.
I did not want to believe I had not let the engine warm up enough, but the proof was in front of me so I accepted my mistake.
Fast forward 2 weeks
Earlier this week I was listening to an archived Ultralight Talk show with Ronnie Smith as the guest talking about fuel. If I understood him, he said, he is seeing cold engine seizer symptoms in engines using gas with ethanol because the octane rating degrades at a much faster rate than gas with MTBE. The use of lower octane fuel in an engine under load will predetonate and cause the cold engine seizer.
I don’t know if the fuel I was using caused my misfortune but I thought it worthy to alert you to possible problems with the use of E10 fuel.
Jim Ballenger
Virginia Beach, VA
[quote][b]
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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Jim, Remember, this missive is worth exactly what you paid for it 
First you didn't say how old the fuel is. Refineries guarantee the octane of their auto gas for two months. If you had suffered detonation, you'd have a hole or big cavity about to become a hole in the top of the front piston. Second, do you premix or use oil injection? If you have oil injection, is the tank mounted so that the outlet tube never unports on climb out and was the tank sufficiently full to also prevent unporting?
Last, never restart an engine that has siezed or that you think has siezed. You only do more damage and may have destroyed the evidence to evaluate what happened.
Rick
On 8/25/06, Jim Ballenger <ulpilot(at)cavtel.net (ulpilot(at)cavtel.net)> wrote: | Quote: |
Fellow Kolbers
Let me set the scenario.
Engine Rotax 582 Blue head with 85 hours.
Fuel used Hours 0 - 73 BP 93 MBTE
Hours 74 – 85 BP E10
Oil used Pennz oil for air cooled engines
I had an engine out on take off a few weeks ago in my 582 powered MK III X. It happened on a Saturday morning around 8. As usual, I completed my preflight and started the engine. I let it warm up at around 2800 rpm before I taxied to the runway for my run up. By the time I got to the runway run up area my water temp was around 150 and my CHT was 180 or so. I increased my rpm to 3500 to do the mag check. By the time I had completed the mag check, the CHT was 200 and water was at 155. Everything looked good so I took the active runway and took off. I was climbing at 65 mph IAS at a rate of 800 fpm. At 300 feet my engine suddenly stopped. I nosed over and landed straight ahead without incident. As soon as I was on the ground and off the runway I got out of the plane and looked at my carb bowls, they were both full of clear BP 93 with 10% ethanol. I turned the engine over by hand and noticed the compression was not as strong as usual. At that point I figured the engine had seized on me so I got back in the plane and started it to taxi back to the hangar and let it cool off. The next morning I removed the exhaust manifold and found evidence of a cold engine seizer in the front piston.
I did not want to believe I had not let the engine warm up enough, but the proof was in front of me so I accepted my mistake.
Fast forward 2 weeks
Earlier this week I was listening to an archived Ultralight Talk show with Ronnie Smith as the guest talking about fuel. If I understood him, he said, he is seeing cold engine seizer symptoms in engines using gas with ethanol because the octane rating degrades at a much faster rate than gas with MTBE. The use of lower octane fuel in an engine under load will predetonate and cause the cold engine seizer.
I don't know if the fuel I was using caused my misfortune but I thought it worthy to alert you to possible problems with the use of E10 fuel.
Jim Ballenger
Virginia Beach, VA
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Jim Ballenger
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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[quote] ---
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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Hi Jim,
similar thing on my field. An Escapade with a Jabiru engine. While in the cruise the engine ran rough and then went bang and stopped.
Jabi refused to settle under warranty blaming `contaminated fuel`. The engine was operating on Mogas for which it is cleared, indeed it is a major selling point. Mogas is £1 a litre and Avgas is about £1.30 The contamination referred to was not ` muck` as was first thought but the additives which some companies are putting in the petrol.
The Jabi distributor is now recommending running on mogas with a proportion of avgas added.
Jabi apparently eventually came to a compromise over accepting the costs of the repair.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
[quote][b]
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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And I should have added, good on you for sharing with the group. Hopefully your engine needs nothing more than an acid etch to get the aluminum off the cylinder walls, a touch up with a hone, a couple of pistons and some gaskets, and you're good to go.
Rick
PS Be sure and inspect the cable going to the oil injection pump.
On 8/26/06, Jim Ballenger < ulpilot(at)cavtel.net (ulpilot(at)cavtel.net)> wrote:[quote]
[quote] ---
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: Re: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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Some points worth considering, regarding E10:
1) Rotax says 87 octane is high enough octane for the 2 stroke engines including the 582.
2) Rotax says that their 2-stroke engines prefer no alcohol but up to 5% alcohol is tolerable. As far as I can tell, they say nothing about what happens or can be expected to happen if you burn E10 (10% ethanol).
3) Ethanol has higher knock resistance (higher octane rating) than gasoline with or without MBTE.
4) Alcohol is hygroscopic meaning it is attracted to any water that may be present and thus settles to the bottom of the tank, mixed with the water. The gasoline thus separated from its alcohol effectively reduces the octane of the fuel remaining. This is one of the reasons why it is even more important to refill your tank after each flight when running gasohol than when running "pure" gasoline. No air space, less chance for water condensation. This also a good reason for draining a sample from your gascolator or low spot in system AFTER a flight (as well as before flight) and before refilling tank, to get out what ever water may be there so it does not mix with the alcohol in the fuel you are adding.
I think the last point is the most important one if you have no choice but to burn gasohol.
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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Denny Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: MK3X ENGINE OUT |
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Jim,
Glad to hear you made it through the forced landing AOK.
Good Job.
Denny Rowe
do not archive
[quote][b]
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