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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I am with you Jerry, some have more problems than others.

  On the other hand I have little sympathy for those building pre-punched 

CAD drawing RV's. I built RV's in the 80's with the hand drawn "blue prints" 

and typewriter instructions, and oh yes no pre-punch or pre-drilled anything. 

  Would you like some cheese and cracker's with your whine!

  Most mistakes are made by the builder. If the only mistake you make 

is because of a drawing error you are better than I. Building a RV-7 

now and it's a dream.

  George M. (Beer drinker)

  Waaaa, building is hard. Waaaa   I made a mistake... waaaa.

  It's not good enough you get a kit plane that is a Bargain, performs 

so well. 

  Some people are never happy unless they are unhappy, Waaaaaa.

   Whine-er's need not reply   

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>

>FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

>

> ceengland(at)bellsouth.net writes:

>

>     Is this a worthwhile  suggestion?

>

>     (Again, koolaid drinkers please don't reply.)

>

>     Thanks,

>

>     Charlie

>

> ========================================

> It sure is Charlie!

>  

> As one person said: "PSS Van does not do to much wrong when it comes 

 to the RV's. "

  >That would be me as I am the only person that had responded. .. In the 

 	  Quote: 	
		  20+ years I have been building and

flying RVs it seem like there are always a few people that have 

constant problems and complaints. On the

the other hand there are several thousand  RVs being built where the 

builders do not have problems. I guess I

will stop here before getting into a nasty slug fest. I would have let 

it go if it had not been for the  koolaid

comment. Have you  ever considered the koolaid drinkers are very happy 

builders and flyers?

do not archive

  Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail. [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

At the risk of bringing some maturity (g) to the discussion, I think it's important to recognize that   everyone is different and one size doesn't necessarily fit all. We all learn differently. We all interpret differently. There is no "right" way or "wrong" way. There's only a different way and if we're smart enough to build airplanes, aren't we smart enough to stay clear of pointless debate about the people doing the learning?



It's true that the folks who built off the plans were real good builders, but a plans-only model wouldn't have kept Van's in business because few people actually could do that.  On the other side of the coin, this is a friggin' big airplane, not a Lego kit. Under the 51% rule, we're supposed to get educated. It's just that sometimes the process of education collides head-on with the recreation part.



The other thing to remember is that the instructions/plans method was deployed before something like builders groups on the Internet came along and, frankly, sites like Dan Checkoway's are becoming the defacto instruction manual for a lot of people who like to SEE stuff put together.  Then you have the Orndorff videos. And this list, and other lists, and newsletters. When you really think about it,  building for many people is not "I built just off the plans," it's "I built off the plans, the manual, the Web sites, the videos, and the user groups."  



Debating whether people should just build off the plans is a moot point except for those who just want to have a good online feud. Even Van's recognizes they shouldn't or else they wouldn't have taken such a huge step forward with the RV-10 plans.  How did they get to that improvement? Someone must've pointed out that there was a better way. Good for them. Good for us. I'm guessing they also did it without characterizing the company as inordinately inferior.



So just one more plea before I have to start setting up another stinkin' Rules Wizard on Outlook:



If we could just bend over backwards to consider other obvious improvements that could be made in this process without giving in to the temptation to use the thread for another worthless "I'm better than you are"  stage, that'd go a long way toward making this week's building process even better at my house.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

At 09:57 AM 8/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am with you Jerry, some have more problems than others.



On the other hand I have little sympathy for those building pre-punched

CAD drawing RV's. I built RV's in the 80's with the hand drawn "blue prints"

and typewriter instructions, and oh yes no pre-punch or pre-drilled anything.



Would you like some cheese and cracker's with your whine!



Most mistakes are made by the builder. If the only mistake you make

is because of a drawing error you are better than I. Building a RV-7

now and it's a dream.



George M. (Beer drinker)



Waaaa, building is hard. Waaaa   I made a mistake... waaaa.



It's not good enough you get a kit plane that is a Bargain, performs

so well.



Some people are never happy unless they are unhappy, Waaaaaa.

Whine-er's need not reply 


	


George, you have a great track record of providing insightful information

BUT (here it comes) I don't agree with you here.  It sounds like there

are errors that should and could be corrected but Vans won't do it.



If my assessment is correct then Vans should strive for perection.

With things on computers and easily changed it does not make

sense to allow known mistakes to stay uncorrected.



Ron Lee



Do not archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	
		   It sounds like there are errors that should and could be 

 corrected. 


	


I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod

between the two control yokes is too short.  That strikes me as kind of an

important connection, and there's not enough threads to get threadlocker on

there, or even the torque seal goop.  Change to  3-11A. Might also be the

case for the bolt connecting the aileron pushrods to the stick. I've added

it to the database.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

OH, I should have mentioned that this applies for those using manual aileron

trim. That steel tab that connects the spring and the yoke adds the

thickness that makes the 10A too short.



[quote] --

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

panamared3(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

It seems that everyone on the list has replied, so why should I be any 

different?



As a person who strives to swim downstream, and not upstream, I learned 

early from Van's when most of their advice to my questions was "to just 

make it work."  Sort of like if the small hammer doesn't work, use a 

slightly bigger one.



Somewhere during the wing construction, I began to use Van's instructions 

and plans as a general guidelines.  You could say that my RV is not built 

to the plans.  But as many of you are finding out, few if any RVs are or 

can be built to the exact specifications on the plans.



I remember on one of the promotional videos for the RVs of some disgruntled 

builder running outside of the workshop with a part, throwing it on the 

ground and then jumping up and down on it.  I think someone at Vans has a 

sense of humor, or at least understands that building an RV is not an exact 

science step by step and paint by the numbers process.



I am one of the last people on earth to defend Vans Aircraft.  I just offer 

my opinions to help others overcome the extreme frustration that we all get 

caught up in (some will not admit it).  Take a week off, come back 

refreshed and relook  the problem, and the answer will be forthcoming!  You 

might not like the obvious answer, but that is part of homebuilding, you 

have to take the good with the bad, or you will be forced to abandon you 

project!



BTW the kit with the most comprehensive instructions that I have heard of 

was the Christen Eagle.  At the time I built my RV, the RV kit cost about 

$11,000 and the Eagle kit was $50,000.  Would you rather pay Van the extra 

$39,000 or do it yourself?



Bob

3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Bob Collins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod

between the two control yokes is too short.  




	


Having some experience in this area, I have to comment.  I worked for a 

company that designed and built road construction equipment.  So I know 

a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors.  I don't 

think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that 

is.  You can't just change a drawing and call it done.  First you need a 

change order to document the changes  That has to be approved, then the 

drawing has to be changed.  Once the documentation has all been done, it 

has to be checked and approved by at least one person in not two.  Then 

the new documents can be released, which is a whole process of it's 

own.  As hard to believe as it may be, the process is even more complex 

than I just made it sound.   Where I worked we would design a machine, 

build 5 or 10, and the drawings still wouldn't be all corrected.  I was 

once working on drawings for a "one off" machine, a good 6 months after 

the machine had been shipped.  Keep in mind it takes a while to build 

these huge machines.  The level of detail Vans puts in his instructions 

is pretty amazing to me.  Where I worked, you would not get any 

instructions, just the drawings and parts lists.  Granted the people 

there did this for a living, and they could always walk in the office 

and ask the engineers and designers if they had a question.  Coming from 

that background, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt 

callout, I have no sympathy at all.  I don't even know why you would 

waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt 

that fits and use it.  Some have commented that Vans will not fix these 

errors.  That may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that 

would have a  lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt 

and rivet callout errors. 



I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't do better, but when are 

working on exciting new projects like the RV-12, fixing trivial errors 

on drawings, gets put on the back burner.  I think it is also important 

to underscore what has been said by Jerry and others regarding their 

experience building their planes.  Obviously from what they had, it is 

clear that Vans does improve their drawings. 



Finally a few friendly suggestions for those who are struggling with 

some part of the plans that is confusing, try and put that part aside 

for a while and work on something else, getting more of the big picture 

and coming back later may make it all very clear. It's always a good 

idea to read far a head to get a good over view before you start too.  

Realize the errors are always going to be there, don't get too hung up 

because you found one.  Figure out how it is supposed to work, and move 

on. 



do not archive

-- 

Chris W

KE5GIX

HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Chris W,

 I have struggled with myself to not get drawn into this thread, but, thank God, at last a voice of reason among all the whining about incorrect bolt/rivet/whatever callouts.  Under the 51% rule building our airplanes is supposed to be an educational process, which used to require a certain amount of thinking on the part of the one supposedly being educated.  If the friggen bolt/rivet/whatever is too short/long /whatever just change to what is required and move on.  

 Yeah, the plans and instructions have a few mistakes.  So what, it ain't a perfect world, think about it and do what is required to make it right.

 FLAME ON!

 Do Not Archive

 --

Harry Crosby 

RV-6 N16CX, 254 hours

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Chris W <3edcft6(at)cox.net> 

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6(at)cox.net> 

 Bob Collins wrote: 

 >I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod 

 >between the two control yokes is too short. 

 > 

 Having some experience in this area, I have to comment. I worked for a 

 company that designed and built road construction equipment. So I know 

 a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors. I don't 

 think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that 

 is. You can't just change a drawing and call it done. First you need a 

 change order to document the changes That has to be approved, then the 

 drawing has to be changed. Once the   docume ntation has all been done, it 

 has to be checked and approved by at least one person in not two. Then 

 the new documents can be released, which is a whole process of it's 

 own. As hard to believe as it may be, the process is even more complex 

 than I just made it sound. Where I worked we would design a machine, 

 build 5 or 10, and the drawings still wouldn't be all corrected. I was 

 once working on drawings for a "one off" machine, a good 6 months after 

 the machine had been shipped. Keep in mind it takes a while to build 

 these huge machines. The level of detail Vans puts in his instructions 

 is pretty amazing to me. Where I worked, you would not get any 

 instructions, just the drawings and parts lists. Granted the people 

 there did this for a living, and they could always walk in the office 

 and ask the engineers and designers if they had a question. Coming from 

 that bac  kgroun d, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt 

 callout, I have no sympathy at all. I don't even know why you would 

 waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt 

 that fits and use it. Some have commented that Vans will not fix these 

 errors. That may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that 

 would have a lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt 

 and rivet callout errors. 

 I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't do better, but when are 

 working on exciting new projects like the RV-12, fixing trivial errors 

 on drawings, gets put on the back burner. I think it is also important 

 to underscore what has been said by Jerry and others regarding their 

 experience building their planes. Obviously from what they had, it is 

 clear that Vans does improve their drawings. 

 Finally a few friendly sug  gestio   and m   [quote][b]

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

HCRV6(at)comcast.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Chris W,

  

 I have struggled with myself to not get drawn into this thread, but, 

 thank God, at last a voice of reason among all the whining about 

 incorrect bolt/rivet/whatever callouts.  Under the 51% rule building 

 our airplanes is supposed to be an educational process, which used to 

 require a certain amount of thinking on the part of the one supposedly 

 being educated.  If the friggen bolt/rivet/whatever is too short/long 

 /whatever just change to what is required and move on. 

  

 Yeah, the plans and instructions have a few mistakes.  So what, it 

 ain't a perfect world, think about it and do what is required to make 

 it right.

  

 FLAME ON!

  

 Do Not Archive

  

 --

 Harry Crosby

 RV-6 N16CX, 254 hours

  


	


Very well said Harry, It still amazes me that they can design, draw and 

build parts and keep straight all the parts for the different airplanes 

and also can ship them out

with as few mistakes as there are.  With the few people that work there 

to do this is a tribute to the leadership of the company,  I think some 

people think that when they buy the

kit it is suppose to snap together and they forget the "educational" 

part of the process. How many of you here were handed a piece of alum, 

angle and told this is the elevator

hinges? This is what we used to have to do cut them out of alum. angle 

and make our own. When I built my RV-6 there was no such thing as 

electric flaps but I wanted electric flap.

I had to go scrounge up a Cessna 150 electric flap motor system and 

figure out how to make it work in my RV-6. Still works great after 18 

years.  The one thing that would have helped me

is if there had been more pictures in the manual to show how parts were 

suppose to go together, to me pictures are worth thousands of words. 



Hope to see a lot of you at Van's homecoming this weekend.



Jerry

do not archive

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

What does a Cristen Eagle kit cost?

  Are these Kits even made any more?

  But there where mistakes right? 

   

  I would just have to say build what you like. It's a challenge to build,  

and if it was easy everyone would do it. Sad truth, rarely said is 

not everyone can build a plane no matter how much desire they 

have, for one reason or another.

   

  You make good observations and the Van's "system" could be better,  

but it's still a fairly easy to build kit even comparied to the C-Eagle, 

which  was no walk in the park, even with the great instructions.

   

  Cheers George M. RV-4, RV-7

   

   

   

  >From: "Richard Crosley" <rcrosley(at)adelphia.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Here is a copy of a letter I wrote in 1999 while building my RV-8.  

Doesn't sound like things have changed much,  Too bad.



The plans are usable, but...........



 Take a look at the plans that Frank Christen had for the Christen 

Eagle II

 twenty years ago.  Outstanding!!! A manual for every kit, subdivided 

with a general description of what the task is, description of new skills, 

an accurate list of parts needed on the next section, tools needed and

 preaddressed cards to report back any errors or questions.  Isometric

 pictures on every page.  Change letters on every page, upgrades sent 

until you are  done with that area.  Small parts packaged in plastic boxes 

with the part number for each part depicted in the lid of the box when you 

flipped the it open...........................<snip>

Rich Crosley

RV-8, N948RC


	




  Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail. [quote][b]

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Chris, 



I couldn't have said it better myself....  I fully agree with you.  As

an engineer in the auto industry, changes seem easy on the outside until

you realize all the checks and balances in the system required to keep

accuracy.  Just because someone says something does not work does not

mean the prints need to be changed.... 



If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build an

RV-4....  Directions are useless, you basically build it by the

blueprints.



If you think the RV-4 is bad, then go build a Murphy Moose. They start

with directions that are as useless as the RV-4, but then they don't

even give you blueprints.



The RV-10 has best in class instructions.  If you have an issue with

them, maybe another hobby would be better.  After building an RV-4, I

personally don't like the RV-10 instructions.  They take all the

thinking out of building the airplane.  They are step-by-step

instructions that you can blindly follow without every actually thinking

about what you are doing.  The instructions are scary because they are

so good, that now virtually anyone can build an airplane.



It cracked me up when some guy on the -10 list published a list in a

rant about all the stuff he was missing on the brand new RV-10 kit... A

bold here, a few rivet here, an Adel clamp......  He spend more time and

negative energy publishing that than just ordering the stuff and

continuing on with the build.... You are going to need tons of extra

hardware to maintain the plane, so don't get so caught up on missing

stuff.....



--

jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I've been watching this thread with interest because I had my own issues 

with the way some in Van's company tend to wave off some of the problems we 

find.  Way back in the early '90's, I was just starting to build the wings 

on my -6A.  I did some preliminary measurements of the holes in the spars at 

the rib stations.  To my horror, most of the holes were off center by as 

much as 3/16"!.  Needless to say, my stomach churned the rest of the day; 

and, I couldn't get in touch with Van's.  I talked with someone at Van's the 

next day and was laughed at.  I didn't think it was one bit funny.  I had to 

spend a lot of extra time working around the problem that should never have 

been there, in the first place.  Amazingly, another builder reported the 

same problem in his spars five years later!  I wonder how many other 

builders had the problem and never reported it.  Of course, that was one of 

several errors I found in the kits, the plans, and the manuals.  How soon 

some of our builders forget.  



Since then, I've completed my -6A and have it flying.  I've also done a 

major portion of the work on a QB-9A and am currently working on a new -7A 

for myself.  I'm also watching the construction of a new RV-10 by a friend 

of mine.  All have their problems in drawings, manuals, etc.; but, I must 

admit the kits, manuals, and such, are much better than what I had to use to 

build my first RV.  I know my experience level helps; but, it's nice to 

progress at twice the speed as I did on the -6A.  Of course, my progress 

would be much better if I'd just go out the shop and work on the project. 





BTW, I'm in agreement with another contributor concerning the manual for 

the -10.  I like having a set of plans to work from that are full size for 

most parts.  If I ever need to replace a part, I could use the plans to make 

the part from.  Other than that, the manual is pretty neat.  I'm not 

complaining about the -7A manual, even if I've found an error, or two.  It's 

much better than what I had before.



Thanks to the internet, which I didn't have for a goodly portion of the work 

on my -6A, most of us can work around the builder's problems, in spite of 

some lacking from Van's.  The RV-list, when used for what it was intended, 

is a great source for answers.  I guess that's why I'm still subscribing ten 

years later.  



Jim Sears in KY

RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)

RV-7A #70317 (Fuse bulkheads and holding)

EAA Tech Counselor

do not archive

Rick Galati

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote: 	
		  .........If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build an RV-4.... The RV-10 has best in class instructions.  If you have an issue with them, maybe another hobby would be better............ 	




Some time ago, a seasoned airline pilot with a wry wit observed that the airline travel experience was being rapidly reduced to just two classes of flyers.......First Class and Third World.  



As Van's kits and plans increasingly improve, the process has been democratized to the point that a whole new class of builder has emerged.  Because of the advanced nature of todays kits, it is now possible to attract the masses.  For the first time in history, it is possible for the marginally skilled (and that includes builders who have assembled nothing more complicated than a propane barbeque grill from Lowes or Home Depot), the impatient citizen long accustomed to instant gratification and his cousin....the first time builder and vocal critic who cannot adapt generally well written plans and callouts to a particular building situation.  Such are the realities of an efficient marketplace. A place at the table for everyone.



I'll go even further than that.  I say a prepunched Quickbuild kit is to homebuilt aircraft construction what a Betty Crocker Warm Delights Molten Chocolate cake mix is to the culinary arts.     It is generally conceded the devil’s food treat can be loosely described as “cake” but demanding purists with a discerning palate would naturally chafe at the notion and the “chef” a natural impulse to suggest a Herculean effort and superior cooking skill to produce a confection demanding little more than a quarter cup water and 1 minute, 45 seconds in the microwave.   



Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"  (standard kit)

Last edited by Rick Galati on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I just want to put in that I think Vans is excellent. It's the frickin builder, being myself in this case.  I'm the one that forgets to do something, or I cut something wrong, I get ahead of myself.  Personally, I don't know how the average person can do these kits, that's probably why so many people join these groups, because they are pretty complicated.  Myself, I hardly use the manual, I just look at the blueprints and just throw it together so to speak.  When I have a problem then I go to the manual, but that still leaves me a little baffled, so then I come here and read a little, then I go to the different web sites and then I go look for an RV at the airport, to look at it.



Myself I've built many remote control airplanes in the past.  I've always been able to use  my hands and put things together, well I do have a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and do the computer systems and electronics.  So this gives me a real big boost for building the RV.  I love this stuff, I call it my big erector set.  Which was my most favorite toy when I was a kid, you couldn't get me away from it.



I just love the prepunched holes, but I think most people are putting to much work into these kits.  I personally just go through and drill out all the holes to the proper size, then I put them together, forget about match hole drilling, I feel that when you do that, you stand a chance of changing the alignments, just drill them real quick seperately then put them together.  Like I said, when I do this and put them together I then check the alignments and there right on.

jack.lockamy(at)navy.mil
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I'd like to add some more fuel to the fire here....   

I'm no homebuilt-airplane expert, but having been in this 'hobby' for about the last 17 years or so and having built three (3) airplanes, I have run across a LOT of folks attempting to build an airplane that CAN NOT and/or SHOULD NOT be doing so!  If you can't figure out, on your own, what size and length of bolt or rivet is required to attach two or more pieces together, you really need to find another hobby and buy a spam can if you want an airplane.  My hat is off to the guys who answer the tech support line at Van's.  I can not imagine having to answer the same old, tired questions from people who need someone to hold their hand during every step in the project.  Study, read, practice, learn it on your own!  My personal rule is that if I have spent two or more hours studying the problem and the 'light hasn't come on yet....", I ask for help.  But, I did take the time to figure it out on my own first and usually am successful.  Not because I am smart (I'm definitely not....), but because most of this stuff is 'common sense' which a lot of wannabe builders seem to lack.  

I'm sorry if this offends anyone and it is certainly not directed at any one individual, however I think it needs to be acknowledged that not all of us have the same skill set.  I tell others I'm not an airplane builder... I am an "assembler".  I have buddies who are "builders" and I will never have, or be capable of learning, the skills they have.  I think it was Clint Eastwood who said...."A man has to know his limitations".  I know mine and when I need help, I, unlike a lot of guys, don't mind admitting my shortcomings and ask for assistance.  

Not everyone can a build an airplane, even if the plans were perfect.....   

Jack Lockamy  

Camarillo, CA  

RV-7A N174JL 220 hrs  

www.jacklockamy.com   

do not archive     [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't even know why you would 

 waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just 

 find a bolt 

 that fits and use it. 


	


Well, I'm probably a little anal in this area but I like to make sure all of

the parts that the designers want in a connection of any importance are

installed on the plane. So I actually use the plans more than the

instructions because I like to make sure the waashers are where they're

supposed to be around rod end bearings etc (I actually, just an aside, am

kind of surprised when I look at a number of builders who graciously put

their work online, how many rod end bearings are not surrounded by washers.

And as a further aside, let me point out the value of -- of at least to me

-- of the online log that pointed out the value of surrounding the TruTrak

installation with washeres).



Anyway, as long as I'm using the plans, it's easier to look at the bolt

callout, grab it out of the right bin and install it.



Now, it's true, you could just grab a couple of bolts and put one in until

one fits properly. But in my case, theat probably wouldn't work. Why?

Because I installed those bolts in that control column the other night and

put the nutstops on and never noticed it didn't fit until I was

disassembling it the other day.



Your point on the plans production difficulty is taken which is why I value

these lists and databses so much because I CAN make the changes really quick

when people find them. I just take a pen, scratch ut what's on the plans and

write down the correct part, number, or process. Simple.



I've REALLY enjoyed BUILDING the plane so far and if it's half as much fun

to fly as it is to build ...well... Great. But I'm a different person than

when I started. All my life, my family called me the "Scotch tape kid,"

because when something wasn't quite right, I'd just Scotch tape it until it

was. My dad's fixes were legendary for their -- ummm -- quirkiness and

inconsistency of results. That was me. However, since I started building 5

years ago, I answer to "me" now. I want to do things perfectly and though

perfection is often not achievable, approaching tasks with that goal is what

I like. I go slow and if *I'm* not satisfied, I redo it or do it until I

*am* satisfied.



I'm the quality control guy on my plane; not the guy at the other end of the

phone or the person that laughs at my question or the people who might

ridicule me on a bulletin board for not being just like him.  Look, sure

we'd like the plans to be as good as they can be. But Van's isn't building

my plane. I'm building my plane and one of the things you learn in the

constructin process is that sometimes the plans are inefficient, and the

instructions are in ther ight order and you have to check and doublecheck if

you're of that mind to do so.  I think questioning and double-checking is a

good thing and I think it leads to good habits in every other facet of

flying. It's no different, it seems to me, than checking your fuel tank

after the line guy has filled it up to be sure that it's full of 100LL and

not JetA.



So I think in the end we have to live with what we have. But I also think we

should accept that everyone is -- as I said before -- different. Brains work

differently. Rather than spend endless time characterizing people as being

one way or the other -- a completely fruitless exercise in the grand scheme

of things -- let's just redouble our efforts to provide information that can

help our fellow builders. Let's offer constructive advice and support.



Van's is one of the quirkiest companies I've ever dealt with. Heck of a

plane, no doubt about it. They're not going to suddenly change their ways

any more than I am going to go back to being the Scotch tape kid. We are

what we are.



Bob

RV Builder's Hotline

http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I can  honestly say, then, that I should not have started building the airplane with  the skill set I had when starting the project. However, as the project has  progressed, I believe I have become "qualified" to build (http://tinyurl.com/ph5za for background).  I did so because  *I* proactively sought out an education in this area and -- perhaps even more  important -- folks were positive and energetic in providing the advice to make  me a better builder. I'm pretty that's a key idea behind the rule that allows us  to build these things anyway.

  

 Occasionally, I run into builders who say "I built this myself." I  usually say, "no you didn't." (g)

  

 Do not  archive

  

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

> I don't even know why you would 

> waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just 

> find a bolt 

> that fits and use it. 

 

 Well, I'm probably a little anal in this area but I like to make sure all of

 the parts that the designers want in a connection of any importance are

 installed on the plane. So I actually use the plans more than the

 instructions because I like to make sure the waashers are where they're

 supposed to be around rod end bearings etc (I actually, just an aside, am

 kind of surprised when I look at a number of builders who graciously put

 their work online, how many rod end bearings are not surrounded by washers.

 And as a further aside, let me point out the value of -- of at least to me

 -- of the online log that pointed out the value of surrounding the TruTrak

 installation with washeres).


	




A HIGHLY recommended option for all builders, especially those with no 

previous aircraft experience, is to put the following publication in 

your shop and refer to it any time you are flummoxed about anything 

construction related:



http://www.buildersbooks.com/4313.htm



A quick look at AC 43.13, Acceptable Methods of Aircraft Repair, can 

tell you how to properly install bolts, utilize washers, torque 

fasteners, install safety wiring, etc, etc, etc and will prevent you 

from calling Vans and asking questions that make it sound like you are 

clueless concerning aircraft construction.



It's true Vans is the manufacturer of the kit and has some 

responsibility therein, but that doesn't remove our obligations as 

builders to educate ourselves as much as possible about this endeavor we 

have undertaken.



Sam Buchanan

c.ennis(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Lordy, Lordy, Rick,

 I hope you know what a can of worms you have kicked over on the rug...Em, 

Em, Em.

 Charlie Ennis

  RV6-A Slow Build

---

perfeng(at)3rivers.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

My Lord Rick, you mean you heard all those timers go "DING" too...?



Nuff said!  Gotta get back to important building stuff ...like trying to 

decypher what the molecular differences are between AN and MS fasteners used 

in an RV.



Jim D.



Please do not Archive!

---

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