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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Lordy, Lordy is right, all this and not one,  Do Not Archive.

Just send the -10 guys some cheese to go with their whine.

'sides iffen ya'll R alooken fir a challenge, build the RV-4 Derivative 

(what Van's himself calls them), (HRII for those in Rio Linda)    8*) 

KABONG



---

ptrotter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Westchester County, NY

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I think some peope have missed the main point of this discussion.  I don't 

think anyone is arguing that a builder should not have a basic skill level 

to build a plane or that he should be able to research all the appropriate 

sources for information before doing something.  In addition, very few are 

saying that Van's instructions are inadequate.  I think that the main point 

is that if the instructions do make a statement on how to do something, then 

that statement should be correct.  Or, if the drawings show a particular 

fastener, then that should also be correct.  If there is no specific 

information, then the builder should apply the appropriate thought and 

research to find the answer, but builder's should not have to second guess 

Van's instructions when they do contain specific information.  I have found 

that when Van's says something will fit, and it doesn't, then I am usually 

doing something wrong, so I study it until I figure out what the problem is 

and it usually fits properly in the end.  However, spending a lot of time 

trying to figure out why it doesn't work out like the drawing shows, only to 

find the the drawing is incorrect, is very frustrating.  In many cases no 

information would be better than bad information, then I would just apply 

the normal standards and move on.



Fixing the errors is not that big a deal.  Van's is not a huge organization 

with complicated procceses for this.  All it would take is a short note on a 

web page.  Most of these they alraedy know about anyway and must share the 

info internally as many times you will call them and get an answer like "Oh 

yea, that should be.....".  It would save them a lot of support time if they 

would just post this information.  A little effort could make a great 

product even better.



Just my $.02, or maybe $.05 by now 



Do Not Archive



Paul Trotter

RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit

_________________
Paul Trotter
RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit
N801PT (reserved)

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  well I do have a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and do the computer systems and electronics.  

  




	




 	  Quote: 	
		  --------

kitfoxmike

  



Darn wish you lived closer the transmission is going out in my 2002 Ford 
	


(Fix Or Repair Daily) Ranger 4x4. 



Jerry

do not archive

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Jerry Springer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 kitfoxmike wrote:

> well I do have a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and 

> do the computer systems and electronics.   

>

> --------

> kitfoxmike

>  

>

 Darn wish you lived closer the transmission is going out in my 2002 

 Ford (Fix Or Repair Daily) Ranger 4x4. 

 Jerry

 do not archive 

Now, now, don't whine. (Pun intended) Rebuilding a tranny should be a 

learning experience. (Yes, I've done it, a long time ago at age 19 with 

a bad repair manual that didn't have all the details.)

Charlie

(are we having fun yet?)

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

FORD found on road dead

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

I would like to add some info here that might seem surprising.  In the auto field the manuals, and I'm talking the factory manuals, have a 30% error.  Now the aftermarket manuals just take from these manuals as well so they are also 30% in error.  This was told to me by the factory reps.



What do I do.  Well if I look in a manual and it doesn't seem right, it probably isn't, so I'm careful.  I guess we just need to be smart and research when things are not right on these planes.  And yes I do believe vans should be posting on their web site the problems, I feel it would make their job a lot easier.  But then again it just might give them a bad rep for a person looking into buying a kit and their just not willing to take the risk of admitting to not doing a very good job.  I know, sounds a bit stuppid in thinking, but there are people that look at things that way. I know they should be worried about us, but we already took the plunge and started buying the kits, so, they don't care about us people, they care about future sales, or the first sale more. I'm thinking marketing here nothing more.

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

At 10:11 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>



 I would like to add some info here that might seem surprising.  In the auto field the manuals, and I'm talking the factory manuals, have a 30% error.  Now the aftermarket manuals just take from these manuals as well so they are also 30% in error.  This was told to me by the factory reps.

 snipped

 kitfoxmike

 kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster

  http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike

 rv7 wingkit

 reserved 287RV 	


 I'll second Mike's observation about errors in automotive tech info. I do this for a living and it can be maddening. I'd also like to mention that you don't get "step by step" instructions in these manuals either. The authors assume that the person doing the work has enough training to figure out HOW to remove or install a particular part or assembly which needs to be removed or installed, as part of a larger project. 

  Like everyone else, I've spotted a number of small errors on my 8A plans. A local RV4 builder/owner coined a term for being bit in the butt by an error in the plans. He calls it being VANdalized.  After seeing my pre-punched 8A kit, he told me I had the "girls" kit. I got the lecture about earlier builders having to mine their own Bauxite, in the snow, trudging up hill, both ways, in June, etc, etc. 

  I spent 4 months helping Jody build his RV4. He was correct, the older plans were nowhere near as good. He says that compared to today's plans, his RV4 instructions were "mere vague suggestions". Still, he finished it, and did a great job of it. I have a lot of respect for the builders of RV4s and early RV6s like Jody Edwards and Jerry Springer. For builders of RV3s, like Alex Sloan, all I can say is "We are not worthy"!  

  I was the winner in giving Jody 4 months of free help. He taught me a lot more than I helped him. Folks starting out without a good skill set, could do worse than to offer to help another builder. It will be time well spent.

  Vans does update errors in the plans. However, if he has 1000 sets of plans already printed out, the error won't be fixed till the next printing cycle. He has Dutch genes, after all.

 Charlie Kuss     [quote][b]

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

He has Dutch genes.  Oh my, that xplains everything.  The first person I worked for in the auto industry was Dutch, boy was he frugal.  Great guy.

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	
		  

  Vans does update errors in the plans. However, if he has 1000 sets of plans already printed out, the error won't be fixed till the next printing cycle. He has Dutch genes, after all.

 Charlie Kuss 	


 And an errata sheet(s) costs how much?



 Ron Lee



 Do not archive    [quote][b]

Jerry Cochran

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Wilsonville, OR

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Jerry, 

  

 Try Transparts out on Division St. in Portland. (503) 235-6672... That's where we used to sub out  our tranny work. Good people, honest, sensible pricing. BTW, what flavor  KOOL-AID do you prefer? I luv cherry meself... LOL!!!

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE!!!

 Jerry Cochran 

  

 In a message dated 8/30/2006 12:01:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  rv-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Time: 06:01:47    PM PST US

From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>

Subject: Re:    Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in



--> RV-List    message posted by: Jerry Springer    <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>



kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  well I do have    a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and do the    computer

systems and electronics.  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		       




	




 	  Quote: 	
		  --------

kitfoxmike

     



Darn wish you lived closer the transmission is going out in my    2002 Ford 
	


(Fix Or Repair Daily) Ranger 4x4. 



Jerry

do not    archive 	


 

  

  [quote][b]

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

At 12:45 PM 8/30/2006, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		   Vans does update errors in the plans. However, if he has 1000 sets of plans already printed out, the error won't be fixed till the next printing cycle. He has Dutch genes, after all.

 Charlie Kuss 	


 And an errata sheet(s) costs how much?



 Ron Lee



 Do not archive 	


 Ron,

  It costs $15 a year. It's called the RVator. I believe that Doug Reeves also posts all the revisions listed in the RVator issues on his web site. That costs nothing but a little effort from the builder.

 Charlie Kuss

      [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

Whoops. Forgot to mention that the last time a revision in plans appeared in

the RVator was early 2004 (this doesn't include already published service

bulletins). Before that, there was a revision (the allowance of welding in

the aileron pushrod) in mid 2003.  I'm missing two issues so don't bet the

house that these stats are correct.



But I *did* notice after early 2005, that not as many revisions were

appearing in RVator as had up until that time (there used to be amount one

per month). That could mean that there was nothing to revise or maybe they

just needed the space for a Tom Greene bike-riding story. (g)



Do not archive



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

This thread equals about 500 rivets that could have be

set? I say rivet on. If you want to offer a price to

buy Van's booming business... well



Darrell



--- Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 

 Whoops. Forgot to mention that the last time a

 revision in plans appeared in

 the RVator was early 2004 (this doesn't include

 already published service

 bulletins). Before that, there was a revision (the

 allowance of welding in

 the aileron pushrod) in mid 2003.  I'm missing two

 issues so don't bet the

 house that these stats are correct.

 

 But I *did* notice after early 2005, that not as

 many revisions were

 appearing in RVator as had up until that time (there

 used to be amount one

 per month). That could mean that there was nothing

 to revise or maybe they

 just needed the space for a Tom Greene bike-riding

 story. (g)

 

 Do not archive

 

 --

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	
		   This thread equals about 500 rivets that could have be

 set? I say rivet on. If you want to offer a price to

 buy Van's booming business... well


	


Heh heh. In my next life, I actually don't want to OWN Van's. I want to be

Ken Krueger. How good must the job security be when you're the guy who

designs the most popular homebuilts in the world? And how cool must it be to

know that the most popular homebuilt in the world came straight out of your

head?



Do not archive.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

Date: 2006/08/31 Thu AM 10:27:00 CDT

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in

 	  Quote: 	

> This thread equals about 500 rivets that could have be

> set? I say rivet on. If you want to offer a price to

> buy Van's booming business... well

Heh heh. In my next life, I actually don't want to OWN Van's. I want to be

Ken Krueger. How good must the job security be when you're the guy who

designs the most popular homebuilts in the world? And how cool must it be to

know that the most popular homebuilt in the world came straight out of your

head?

Do not archive.

That is not quite true, Van had the most popular homebuilt in the world before Ken started work there. he has defiantly helped with the construction procedures but did not really have anything to do with the design itself of the earlier kits.

do not archive

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