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Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

Bob:

   

  It is called Airmanship. Standardization, Procedures, Checklist.

   

  I hate to be boring and repeat my self, but do it as the AFM, AOM 

or checklist says. Granted if "experimental" you can set any procedure 

you want, BUT WHY NOT stay with the standard method / procedure.

   

  Bob as a CFII-MET, ATP and professional instructor I reject the, it 

does not matter, attitude. On the B767 for example you are trained 

to turn hydraulic pumps on and off in a certain order. Well the smart

pilots say it does not matter. However they have out smarted them 

selves. When done out of sequence or reversing the order you 

transfer fluid from one system to another and end up over full on 

one system and low on the other over time.

   

  Second is human factors. I worked for Boeing and developing or 

evaluating small changes in check list. LESS IS  MORE. You don't 

need to do extra steps than DON'T. Don't make it up as you go. BE 

CONSISTANT and  FOLLOW PROCEDURES, every time. Why be 

different than Piper or Cessna in your experimental? If you don't need 

to or have a good reason to change the procedure DON'T. Some day 

it will bite you.

   

  Last, internally regulated alterantors have automatic control of the 

voltage regulator and do not require manual selection. Doing manual 

selection is going against the way it was designed. Many have 

"soft start" and delays built into the chip. If you don't have first hand 

knowledge of how it's designed than I suggest you follow the 

PROCEDURE that was established for the application that alternator 

was originally designed for, e.g., a automobile. How many automobiles 

require the driver the switch the alternator on and off manually? ZERO

   

  I know Boys will be Boys and throwing  switches is weeeeee, fun, but 

resist the urge to play Top Gun, Space Shuttle Captain. KISS 

Keep it Simple Scientific-man. 

   

  I think your observations Bob are weak and insignificant. 

   

  Yea, standardization and check list are stupid (not).

   

  You must be fun to work with Bob, when you tell people their input 

is insignificant. Bob, there are other factors to consider that are not 

related to electrons alone. You need to get up from you bench and 

go fly more. Human factors, AFM's and checklist are key, critical 

to aviation safety. To get into a NIT PICK of the esoterica of who 

is more correct is counter productive. 

   

  Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM 

OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED  

BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which  

is: ALT on  before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.

   

   

  Cheers George (boring and following standardization and checklist) 

   

   

   

  >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		  posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  >posted by: "Bill Denton"  <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>

>

>In an airplane equipped with a Continental 0-200, would you want to 

>turn  on the ALT switch before engine start, or after?


	


   >It makes no difference. The arguments for and against

   >either philosophy are not backed by good science meaning

   >that effects cited as undesirable are so weak as to be

   >insignificant.

  [quote][b]

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

Here's a bit of background on my  question...

  

 I was considering panel layouts for an OBAM  (Experimental) aircraft, so there would be no "procedures" other than what I set  myself.

  

 I am a firm believer in standardization as I have done  a great deal of computer software development, and I always follow the human  interface standards unless there is a very good reason not  to.

  

 But there may rarely be reasons for overriding a  standard, or you may have conflicting standards. For example, workflow patterns  are typically set using a "left to right; top to bottom" flow  model.

  

 You will note that in most small single engine  aircraft, the standard is to have the mag/starter switch on the left, with  the master switch(es) (bat and alt) on the right. This violates the typical  workflow model as you must first turn on the battery master (at minimum), then  move left to start the aircraft.

  

 I am considering overriding the "standard" placement  and using a workflow-based placement.

  

 In this instance, you would have the battery master on  the left, with the mag/starter switch to the right.

  

 The question then arises as to when the alt switch  should be turned on, and I recall reading someplace at some time (how's that for  precision!) that it might be best not to turn on the alt switch until after  engine start.

  

 If you would turn on the alt switch before engine  start, I would use a layout of: battery master - alt -  mag/starter.

  

 But if you would turn the alt switch on after engine  start, I would use a layout of: battery master - mag/starter -  alt.

  

 The concept would be maintaining the left-to-right  workflow model...

  

  

  

 --

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

In a message dated 8/30/2006 10:52:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, bdenton(at)bdenton.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   You will note that in most small single engine aircraft, the standard is to have the mag/starter switch on the left, with the master switch(es) (bat and alt) on the right. This violates the typical workflow model as you must first turn on the battery master (at minimum), then move left to start the aircraft.

  

 I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a workflow-based placement.

  

 In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left, with the mag/starter switch to the right

	


 ====================================

 This would have been a good idea if it was done about 50 years ago.  The problem is all of your training and 99.93% of everyone else's was done to the old standard.  You have been conditioned over the years and hopefully just like a concert violinist trained your muscles to react.  I'm not saying you can't be retrained but the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.

 I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may want to or need to have someone else fly your plane.

 Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason why things were original done with the Mags to the outside.  It was because you can accidentally shutoff the Master without any serious consequences. But, if you shut off the engine you now have to pray it will restart.

  

 Years ago I was given the training aid ...  Down & Out is OFF - That goes for two situations Switches & Controls - and - The Start Up / Shut Down procedure.  Starting at center panel you go DOWN and then OUT to both the Right and Left.  This works for many planes especially one that is not yours or is new to you.  It is also a double check as you go back to center.  Human nature takes you BACK the same path you went out on.

  

 As far as things violating the typical workflow model, well just about ALL of flying does that.  Thinking back, what was normal, natural or standard when you were taking your training?  Maybe the Push forward to go Down, Pull Back to go UP but what about the Pull Back more to GO DOWN.  That still has me confused.  Left & Right are OK, but again, what about the things you do with the Rudder?  Crazy ain't it!

  

  

  

 Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

brian-av(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

On Aug 30, 2006, at 7:08 AM, <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>  

<gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM

 OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED

 BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which

 is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.


	


It is possible that a team of engineers may have produced a checklist  

for specific reasons but most check lists only ensure you perform all  

the steps and sequence is not an issue. I am aware of checklists that  

were constructed by the manufacturer just that way, by random chance.  

Changing the checklist to improve logical grouping or cockpit flow is  

actually sensible.



You make a good point about understanding the systems. You understand  

why there is a start-up order for the hydraulic systems in the B767.  

Systems understanding is very important.



And when you understand the single-battery, single-bus, single- 

alternator-with-external-regulation system used in almost all TC  

singles, you will know that turning on the alternator with the master  

or after start is a non-issue. IT DOES NOT MATTER.



Slavish adherence to old procedures without any thought is bad  

practice also.

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

brian-av(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:57 AM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a  

 workflow-based placement.



 In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left,  

 with the mag/starter switch to the right

 ====================================

 This would have been a good idea if it was done about 50 years  

 ago.  The problem is all of your training and 99.93% of everyone  

 else's was done to the old standard.  You have been conditioned  

 over the years and hopefully just like a concert violinist trained  

 your muscles to react.  I'm not saying you can't be retrained but  

 the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.

 I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may  

 want to or need to have someone else fly your plane.

 Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason why things were  

 original done with the Mags to the outside.  It was because you can  

 accidentally shutoff the Master without any serious consequences.  

 But, if you shut off the engine you now have to pray it will restart.


	


I think you will find that, beyond the six-pack flight instrument  

placement, there just hasn't been a lot of standardization on  

aircraft panels. My Aztec has the master and the four mag switches in  

close proximity from left to right on the left side of the switch  

panel. If for any reason I feel a crazy need to turn any of these  

switches off during flight you can bet your sweet ass I will be  

looking very hard to make sure I have the correct one in my hand.  

Just like when retracting flaps the call is "confirm flaps" at which  

point my co-pilot looks down and says "flaps confirmed". Then and  

only then do I raise the flaps.



I think that Bill Denton is to be applauded for thinking about work  

flow ergonomics of his panel. It will make his airplane easier and  

more logical to fly. Just because Beech, Piper, and Cessna used the  

shotgun approach to panel layout 50 years ago doesn't mean there is  

some virtue in retaining those bad old layouts.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

Good Afternoon All,



Just a few random thoughts on this subject.



1.) Standardization makes it much easier for a check

pilot to conduct a proficiency check. 



2.) Standardization allows us to easily develop habit

patterns.



3.) Standardization is the mortal enemy of innovation.



4.) Standardization tends to make the operator feel

he/she is safe as long as he/she is following the

standardized procedures.



So the question becomes: Is standardization good or

bad?



It is my contention that such a question is best

answered by the following statement.



"It All Depends!"



Happy Skies,



Old Bob



--- Brian Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 

 On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:57 AM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 > I am considering overriding the "standard"

 placement and using a  

 > workflow-based placement.

 >

 > In this instance, you would have the battery

 master on the left,  

 > with the mag/starter switch to the right

 > ====================================

 > This would have been a good idea if it was done

 about 50 years  

 > ago.  The problem is all of your training and

 99.93% of everyone  

 > else's was done to the old standard.  You have

 been conditioned  

 > over the years and hopefully just like a concert

 violinist trained  

 > your muscles to react.  I'm not saying you can't

 be retrained but  

 > the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.

 > I mention everyone else because there may be times

 when you may  

 > want to or need to have someone else fly your

 plane.

 > Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason

 why things were  

 > original done with the Mags to the outside.  It

 was because you can  

 > accidentally shutoff the Master without any

 serious consequences.  

 > But, if you shut off the engine you now have to

 pray it will restart.

 

 I think you will find that, beyond the six-pack

 flight instrument  

 placement, there just hasn't been a lot of

 standardization on  

 aircraft panels. My Aztec has the master and the

 four mag switches in  

 close proximity from left to right on the left side

 of the switch  

 panel. If for any reason I feel a crazy need to turn

 any of these  

 switches off during flight you can bet your sweet

 ass I will be  

 looking very hard to make sure I have the correct

 one in my hand.  

 Just like when retracting flaps the call is "confirm

 flaps" at which  

 point my co-pilot looks down and says "flaps

 confirmed". Then and  

 only then do I raise the flaps.

 

 I think that Bill Denton is to be applauded for

 thinking about work  

 flow ergonomics of his panel. It will make his

 airplane easier and  

 more logical to fly. Just because Beech, Piper, and

 Cessna used the  

 shotgun approach to panel layout 50 years ago

 doesn't mean there is  

 some virtue in retaining those bad old layouts.

 

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline

 Way

 brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788

 (fax)

 

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny

 of petty things . . .

 — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 

 

 

 

 



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Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

Yes, sometimes standardization can kill us.



I don't have any information on that commuter crash in KY a couple of days

ago, other than what I saw on the news. But I'll bet you a breakfast that

the guy realized that he was on too short a runway just as he saw the end

coming up. He was probably still a little below V1 and his training kicked

in causing him to abort and go off the end of the runway (I'm sure his

accelerate/stop distance was more than the runway length). If he had kept

going on the takeoff he probably would have been able to rotate and get off

the ground in the 3,500 feet he had. Bad day for all.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

In a message dated 8/30/06 1:19:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

brian-av(at)lloyd.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You make a good point about understanding the systems. You understand  

  why there is a start-up order for the hydraulic systems in the B767.  

  Systems understanding is very important.

==========================
	


Very Good Point, Brian.



The o'l quote goes: "You can teach a monkey to fly but, you can't teach a 

monkey to make decisions and learn systems."



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

In a message dated 8/30/06 2:25:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   He was probably still a little below V1 

But did he reach or pass Vrto?
	


Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship)

 	  FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may want to or need to have someone else fly your plane. 	


I see no problem there.  Anyone that stupid won't be flying my airplane!



Fred F.

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