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Kolb-List:180 degree turn

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rp3420(at)freescale.com
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Kolb-List:180 degree turn

Vic,

I'm interested in the 180 degree turn, how do you do it properly?  Just

looking to see what tips were taught.  Appreciate you sharing them.



Tim

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Kolb-List:180 degree turn

Tim,



You addressed your question to Vic about how to do a 180 degree turn, 

but I'm going to take the liberty of adding my $2 worth (inflation .



1)	AT ALTITUDE get into take-off configuration with full power and hold 

Vy (best ROC speed). SUDDENLY close the throttle. Be prepared for a BIG 

nose up pitch change and very rapid loss of airspeed because the sudden 

loss of power in a high thrust line pusher at full power will surprise 

you if you have never done this before. You will likely have no more 

than a very few seconds to get the nose down with aggressive nose down 

elevator to keep from stalling. This simulating sudden power failure 

during take-off configuration is essential to learning to do this well.



2)	Get the speed up (throttle closed or dead engine when it is the real 

thing) to at least 1.5 x power off 1 G stall speed and do a 45 degree 

banked turn of 180 degrees. You will be surprised at how quickly you 

can make the turn this way, but make sure you keep the nose way down 

and speed up. A leisurely turn per the "authorities" will put you in 

the trees way before you get around. Their concern is that you will 

make a steep bank turn at near 1G stall speed. This of course will kill 

you, so they say don't do steep turns. The solution is to keep the 

speed up while in the steep turn. If you don't keep the speed up, you 

risk sudden death. It is that simple.



3)	Repeat this several  times and note the amount of altitude lost 

during this maneuver. Practice improves your performance up to a point. 

  You must get accustomed to the sudden change in pitch and airspeed and 

know by sight and feel the limit of your bank, and required airspeed so 

you gain a muscle memory for automatically doing the right thing at the 

right time. With high thrust line pushers this is a critical skill that 

must acquired with practice if you hope to successfully make a turn 

back to the runway. If you don't acquire this skill and muscle memory 

do not try a turn back to runway. As the FAA says, it is a recipe for 

death.



4)	Once you are comfortable doing this and have a conservative altitude 

loss number, double that number to allow for the reaction time delay 

due to shock when the engine really quits during take-off and to allow 

for imprecision and imperfection in executing the turn. I double it 

also because if you maintain the runway centerline during climb out, 

the turn back is actually more than 180 degrees. That is why I also let 

the airplane drift downwind (during crosswind take-offs) so that the 

turn back will not require much more than 180 degrees. The FARs say you 

are supposed to maintain runway HEADING during climb out but it says 

nothing about allowing down-wind drifting, so I let it if it is safe to 

do so.



5)	This doubled altitude loss number (make it part of your climb out 

mental check list) should become your absolute minimum for doing a turn 

back with a power failure during take-off.



I keep flaps extended (take-off and landing config) until I reach this 

altitude then raise flaps and go to normal climb mode. Before take-off 

at any airport I mentally add this number to ground elevation and look 

for the Altimeter to cross that altitude. Until I am higher than that 

altitude AGL my mind is prepared ONLY for a straight ahead emergency 

landing, This decision height should be made based on your own numbers 

in your aircraft. Each aircraft is different and one number does not 

fit all airplanes.



I expect some will disagree with this but it is something I practice 

with every new airplane I fly. You never know when you will need it. It 

could be on your next take-off.



Thom in Buffalo

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Kolb-List:180 degree turn

The 180 degree turn back to the runway is or should be a practiced

maneuver.  An earlier post described the procedure very nicely. When the

engine first quits, it is important to keep your airspeed.  I prefer the

best rate of climb speed, but best angle of climb speed will work, but

you will have less margin of safety.  The previous post noted the

advantage to let the airplane drift down wind on takeoff to make any

necessary turn back to the runway less that 180 degrees,  On an airplane

with a high thrust line such as my Kolb Mark III Classic, the loss of

power will cause a sudden nose up situation.  That is a no no.  Quicker

response is necessary to maintain your preferred airspeed.  On a mid or

low thrust line, the adjustment is easier.  What you do after that

important step is:  (as an old WW II instructor showed me years ago)

Dive, bank and yank.  That is kind of cute, but is not the whole answer.

This is where the practice comes in.  As you bank severely, you take the

chance of stalling a wing tip.  That is a no no.  But, a good bank with

the nose down will get you around quickly.  As you are pulling in the

steep turn, you will notice ( I should say: you will learn to notice)

that the plane is trying to stall.  As it tries, you begin the roll out.

The roll out, in itself, will prevent the stall.  Some refer to that as

rolling out the stall.  You, most likely, will not do this maneuver

correctly the first time.  But, after 20 or 30 tries, it will get less

intimidating and you will find that any airplane will do it, but the

numbers will be different.  That is why you need to know your airplane

and your skill level.  It is worth learning if not just for the peace of

mind of knowing that you can do it.      Vic  (Sacramento)

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jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: Kolb-List:180 degree turn

After I encountered wake turbulence at Stovepipe Wells in Death Valley and 

dumped a perfectly good C-180, I went back to Boulder City, Nevada  where I 

talked it out with the late Earl Leasburg who reportedly taught God to fly. 

Earl had me roll out Lake Meade Air's  Super Cub next morning which I had 

never flown, and for a half hour with him in back seat and both hands 

touching my shoulders (an amazing confidence-builder) had me do takeoffs , 

then  immediate fairly low-level 180 turns and landings on one of the dirt 

less-used runways.  Satisfied, he turned me loose with the admonition to 

forget those "damned full flaps."



jsf



do not archive



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