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rwhall(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

I have an airworthy CH601 which regrettably I must sell. I would appreciate any 

suggestions as to the best way or place to sell.  Regards, Robert Hall

challgren(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

Robert:



We tried a number of ways before contacting Trade-a-Plane.  It took  

about two weeks and it was sold.



Stan

Sold 601 HDS

Building 701



On Sep 8, 2006, at 11:12 AM, rwhall(at)telusplanet.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have an airworthy CH601 which regrettably I must sell. I would  

 appreciate any

 suggestions as to the best way or place to sell.  Regards, Robert Hall

dforney(at)bctonline.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Zenair for sale

Anytime that I talk to someone about the possibility of selling a homebuilt

if or when I was ever unable to fly it, they always caution me against the

thought due to possible liability lawsuits as the manufacturer.  



Anyone else ever worry about that when selling, or are there ways to protect

yourself?



--

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Zenair for sale

Robert,

      Barnstormers is the  best aviation web site and adds are free unless you want to make a  donation.  I have used them and always make a donation after the  sale.  It's also a good idea to tell people where you are because there  might be someone close who is looking for a Zenith/Zodiac aircraft to  buy.

 http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?PHPSESSID=2ef94a86daa861b6da018683153522ef

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights

 ZodiacXL

  

 ---

Doug Garrou

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

This one has been discussed quite a bit and should be in the archives.  I don't know much about Scotch Brite, but this stuff I know.  



I can give free thoughts, worth what you paid, so long as you agree you aren't my client, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum, ipso facto, e pluribus unum. Laws in different states are different, I am the worst lawyer in history, everything below is wrong, and nobody should pay any attention to anything I say because they will likely instantly burst into flame if they do.  



I love disclaimers.



In selling a homebuilt, through careful contracting, you may be able to obtain some lawsuit protection from the person who buys your airplane, and perhaps his or her family/estate.  You may also be able to work out some kind of insurance deal that covers you both.  That would be unusual and difficult, but it isn't inconceivable.  All this falls into the "unsatisfactory but better than nothing" category.  



But you will NOT be able to immunize yourself effectively against lawsuits brought by third parties.  And that's a big "but," so to speak.



Worst case scenario:  you build the airplane, and leave a wrench in the tail with your name on it.  You sell the airplane.  The new owner crashes into a school bus because the wrench jams the controls.  Every kid on the school bus sues you (and everyone else in sight of course, possibly including the wrench manufacturer and Wilbur Wright.....).  You are sued because you are the "defective" airplane's manufacturer (they'll think of something "defective"), and you were arguably individually negligent, as a mechanic and/or manufacturer, in leaving the wrench in the tail.  



You have all kinds of problems at this point.  The kids on the bus never gave you a hold harmless agreement.  The indemnification deal you did with the buyer isn't much help because he doesn't have any money.  The insurance bids $100,000 per kid, up to 10 kids -- *assuming you're even covered, which would require an unusual arrangement and careful monitoring of the buyer long after the sale* -- and then the insurance company says "see ya."



An extreme example, of course, but there are a lot of fact scenarios out there that would approximate this.  You can substitute the new owner's passengers for the kids on the bus, and it's the same analysis.  



I have discovered that many homebuilders do not like this analysis, but (a) not many of them are commercial litigators and (b) I have yet to hear any of them explain how, exactly, I can prevent exposure to the new owner's passengers, or to the kids on the bus.  



Perhaps after a certain number of years you could claim immunity under GARA, but that's well beyond my expertise, and the wrench issue will still stick you, probably.



Those of you in other countries, keep all this in mind the next time someone criticizes your legal system.    



I do not worry about these kinds of things, however.  Life is waaaaay too short.  I would sell my homebuilt, make sure my name and address were all over the inside, and go drink a beer.  But that's just me.  If you followed that advice you would surely burst into flame. 



Cheers  



Doug Garrou

Project 801

www.garrou.com



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

Unless you are rolling in dough, you are not at a great risk of being  

sued in one of these cases. The lawyers generally go after the "deep  

pockets". This is why very few, if any homebuilders have ever been  

sued as a result of aircraft accidents. There is simply no money to  

be made. In my opinion, a generous insurance policy just makes you a  

bigger target for a lawsuit. I would just sell the plane and walk  

away and not worry too much about liability risks.

On Sep 9, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Garrou, Douglas wrote:



[quote] 

 <dgarrou(at)hunton.com>



 This one has been discussed quite a bit and should be in the  

 archives.  I don't know much about Scotch Brite, but this stuff I  

 know.



 ...



 In selling a homebuilt, through careful contracting, you may be  

 able to obtain some lawsuit protection from the person who buys  

 your airplane, and perhaps his or her family/estate.  You may also  

 be able to work out some kind of insurance deal that covers you  

 both.  That would be unusual and difficult, but it isn't  

 inconceivable.  All this falls into the "unsatisfactory but better  

 than nothing" category.



 But you will NOT be able to immunize yourself effectively against  

 lawsuits brought by third parties.  And that's a big "but," so to  

 speak.



 ...



 Doug Garrou

 Project 801

 www.garrou.com



 --

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

And that is the practical question: "Has anyone ever actually been

successfully sued as the manufacturer of a homebuilt aircraft?"  When I last

asked some time ago, the answer was "no".  Maybe Doug can update us on this

if he has new information about cases that have actually occurred.



Jeff Davidson




Unless you are rolling in dough, you are not at a great risk of being  

sued in one of these cases. The lawyers generally go after the "deep  

pockets". This is why very few, if any homebuilders have ever been  

sued as a result of aircraft accidents. There is simply no money to  

be made. In my opinion, a generous insurance policy just makes you a  

bigger target for a lawsuit. I would just sell the plane and walk  

away and not worry too much about liability risks.

On Sep 9, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Garrou, Douglas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 But you will NOT be able to immunize yourself effectively against  

 lawsuits brought by third parties.  And that's a big "but," so to  

 speak.



 ...



 Doug Garrou

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

I agree that many times the availability of a big lump of insurance money is 

like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Ain't it a bitch though that 

having worked hard or worked smart or both makes you a target as well. It 

reminds me of the injustice of the anti-hunting crowd who don't mind eating 

chickens, pigs, and cattle. They mostly object to the death of "cute" 

animals.



One friend wanted to use the engine that he had previously mounted on a wood 

and fabric ultralight. He moved it to a CGS Hawk. The old airframe was 

perceived as a liability so he rolled it a safe distance from his house (out 

in the country) and set fire to it. He claims that in 15 minutes there was 

not enough left to bother to rake up. So much for carrying a fire 

extinguisher, I guess.



Ed



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Unless you are rolling in dough, you are not at a great risk of being 

 sued in one of these cases. The lawyers generally go after the "deep 

 pockets". This is why very few, if any homebuilders have ever been  sued 

 as a result of aircraft accidents. There is simply no money to  be made. 

 In my opinion, a generous insurance policy just makes you a  bigger target 

 for a lawsuit. I would just sell the plane and walk  away and not worry 

 too much about liability risks.

clojan(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

I was told once that you should always sell an expermental as a unsafe non flyable aircraft. It would be up to the buyer to certify it as safe and flyable again. Jack in Los osos ca

  do not archive



Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin 



Unless you are rolling in dough, you are not at a great risk of being 

sued in one of these cases. The lawyers generally go after the "deep 

pockets". This is why very few, if any homebuilders have ever been 

sued as a result of aircraft accidents. There is simply no money to 

be made. In my opinion, a generous insurance policy just makes you a 

bigger target for a lawsuit. I would just sell the plane and walk 

away and not worry too much about liability  risks.

On Sep 9, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Garrou, Douglas wrote:



[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" 

 



 This one has been discussed quite a bit and should be in the 

 archives. I don't know much about Scotch Brite, but this stuff I 

 know.



 ...



 In selling a homebuilt, through careful contracting, you may be 

 able to obtain some lawsuit protection from the person who buys 

 your airplane, and perhaps his or her family/estate. You may also 

 be able to work out some kind of insurance deal that covers you 

 both. That would be unusual and difficult, but it isn't 

 inconceivable. All this falls into the "unsatisfactory but better 

 than nothing" category.



 But you will NOT be able to immunize yourself effectively against 

 lawsuits brought by third parties. And that's a big "but," so to [quote][b]

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

Netters,

     Since we all know that aluminum is not a good conductor a ground wire 

should be used for every application and it should be copper.  I learned 

this wiring a boat trailer, I used the ball for the ground and then put 

grease on the ball (Stupid me) and had no ground at all.  As soon as a 

friend who is smarter that me told me I had created enough resistance with 

the grease to spoil grounding and I should run a ground wire all lights 

worked fine.



Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

ZodiacXL



---

rwhall(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: Zenair for sale

Bob  Thank you for your tip.  I have listed my Zenair on the Barnstomers site 

and already had some interest.  Best regards, Robert



 Quoting "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4(at)hot.rr.com>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Robert,

      Barnstormers is the best aviation web site and adds are free unless you

 want to make a donation.  I have used them and always make a donation after

 the sale.  It's also a good idea to tell people where you are because there

 might be someone close who is looking for a Zenith/Zodiac aircraft to buy.

 http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?

PHPSESSID ef94a86daa861b6da018683153522ef
	


[quote] 

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights

 ZodiacXL

 

 ---

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

Robert,

     You still have not told anyone where you are.  There may be someone a 

block away who is looking for what you are selling and you will miss out on 

a sale just because no one knows were you are.  If you are a criminal hiding 

from the law forget all I have said. LOL



Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

ZodiacXL



---

Doug Garrou

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

A few followups on the ever-popular liability issue.  I'll cut and paste from various responses:



"Has anyone ever actually been successfully sued as the manufacturer of a homebuilt aircraft?"



"Unless you are rolling in dough, you are not at a great risk of being  

sued in one of these cases. The lawyers generally go after the "deep  

pockets". This is why very few, if any homebuilders have ever been  

sued as a result of aircraft accidents. There is simply no money to  

be made. In my opinion, a generous insurance policy just makes you a  

bigger target for a lawsuit. I would just sell the plane and walk  

away and not worry too much about liability risks."



I agree on all fronts, as a practical matter (hence my "write your name all over the inside and go drink a beer" comment).  And I am not aware of anyone being sued for building a bad homebuilt.  My point was more to the fact that people often claim you can protect yourself completely, and those people are, to use a very technical legal word, "wrong."



Two additional caveats:  we wouldn't necessarily know if claims against homebuilt "manufacturers" have been made, since the case might not be reported or might have been settled without litigation.  Also, some very well-heeled people fly homebuilts -- maybe not Zeniths....  -- and the number of high-end homebuilts seems to be growing substantially.  I think it is only a matter of time before we see a lawsuit going after the well-heeled "manufacturer" (builder/first owner) of a high-performance homebuilt, if it hasn't happened already.  



When that happens, watch the sparks fly as the plaintiff ALSO sues one of those ridiculous "builder assist" (also known as "we build it for the rich guy while he watches") operations as well!



"I was told once that you should always sell an experimental as a unsafe non flyable

aircraft. It would be up to the buyer to certify it as safe and flyable again."



This approach is no different, really, than getting an indemnification from the buyer.  In fact, this approach is probably far less effective.  In any event, this will not be a viable defense in a claim brought by an injured third party.  



Here's another interesting issue along the same lines -- AOPA, etc., all push renter's insurance very hard.  And it isn't cheap.  Certainly aircraft renters are theoretically exposed when they fly rented airplanes (the FBO's insurance rarely, if ever, covers them).  But I don't actually see those cases happening either.  They almost certainly have happened, but before buying renter's insurance, I would want the person selling the insurance to tell me on how many occasions, exactly, in the past 10 years, a renter has actually had a judgment entered against him or her after wrecking the FBO's plane.  I strongly suspect the insurers know the answer to this question, and that the number isn't large.  But I could be wrong, it's just a hunch.



All disclaimers from previous posts apply.....  



Doug Garrou

Project 801

www.garrou.com

rwhall(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Zenair for sale

Bob

I am in Edmonton, Alberta. Thanks again. Robert

Quoting "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4(at)hot.rr.com>:



[quote] 

 

 Robert,

      You still have not told anyone where you are.  There may be someone a 

 block away who is looking for what you are selling and you will miss out on 

 a sale just because no one knows were you are.  If you are a criminal hiding

 

 from the law forget all I have said. LOL

 

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

 ZodiacXL

 

 

 

 ---

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