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Nick(at)Scholtes1.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Hi KitFox Owners!



My name is Nick Scholtes and I'm a typical renter/CFI who flies and

teaches in all of the Cessna and Piper products that you find at the

local FBO.  However, I live on a farm in Illinois where I have a pasture

that would make a perfect Kitfox airstrip (about 800'), and I have an

old cattle shed that would make a perfect hangar.  So, I want to own my

own airplane, for the first time in my life.



Problem is, the "hangar" has an overhead door that is big enough to get

tractors in, but not big enough to get an airplane in with the wings

spread.  The door is 14' wide, 11' tall.



I'm really attracted to the Kitfox IV, and have seen many wonderful Kitfox

IV's for sale in excellent condition.  I've never actually flown one,

however, and have never actually seen the wings folded or the folding

procedure.



So, my questions are:  Is it practical to fold the wings each time you

put the KitFox IV away?  Or is the folding mechanism more like one of

those "you only want to do it once a season" kind of things?  How long

does it REALLY take for a regular guy to fold the wings?  Is it

practical to store the 'Fox in an enclosed trailer?  I know what the

sales brochures say, but what is the REAL story?



Any advice would be appreciated!



Best Regards,



Nick Scholtes

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Nick,



One of the guys in the No Calif flying group folds and trailers every 

flight.  He doesn't even have the luxury of a cattle shed on the strip.  I 

think he's pushing 600 hours.  There has been some talk of the difficulty of 

keeping the fuel lines routed properly with the folding and unfolding.  With 

proper assembly,  It needn't be a problem.  At least Larry has never had a 

problem or spoken of one.



Lowell



---

Ceashman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Nick asks;

 So, my questions are:  Is it practical to fold the wings each time you

put the KitFox IV away?  Or is the folding mechanism more like one of

those "you only want to do it once a season" kind of things?  How long

does it REALLY take for a regular guy to fold the wings?  Is it

practical to store the 'Fox in an enclosed trailer?  I know what the

sales brochures say, but what is the REAL story?



Any advice would be appreciated!



Best Regards,



Nick Scholtes



 Hi Nick.

 I used to fold and trailer every flight. I had a small barn in which to store the IV while on the trailer, so I didn't have to de-trailer when I got home.

 The biggest problems I had.

 *Could not drive faster than 60 MPH

 * If the fuel tanks were full (or fullish) could not fold the wings with the tail wheel on the ground. As the wings fold back they also fold down (that's how tail wheels are, tails are lower than the fronts). You either had to remove the some of the fuel or winch on to the trailer making the back end as high as the front before folding. Other wise fuel would leak out of the tank caps.

 * It took me about 20 to 30 minutes to get the airplane back on the trailer. Just folding the wings would be nothing (with low quantity of fuel in tanks) So it is very practical, make sure you ask the seller if he installed longer fuel lines and are the wings ready for folding.

 * Of the issues with folding and trailering, the worst problem was reversing off the street and down the drive to the barn.

  

 If you have a landing strip with a barn and do not have to trailer. You will be in heaven. Until you extend the existing barn and you do not have to fold the wings, then you will be in second heaven!!

  

 There are some little accessories that will make the job easier. You could probably get these from John at the New Kitfox Co. A couple of tube supports and a soft pad that goes over the vertical fin and rudder.

 All the very best.

 Eric.

  

  

  [quote][b]

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Folding the wings isn't real easy with one guy, but suppose it can be done.

On my Mod IV the fuel level needs to be pretty low to keep the wings light

and getting the flaperons disconnected and positioned right as well as the

front pin in and out isn't easy, but doable.  IF the Door is in the Gable

end of the shed, I'd sure look into replacing the 14' wide door with a 40'

wide "ultimate door" that you buy a kit for and build it your self.  You can

build it for around $1500 if you stay bare bones or 2 to 3 grand if you get

fancy with skylights, insulation, electric operation etc ,  etc.  Bob U.

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Ceashman(at)aol.com

 If you have a landing strip with a barn and do not have to trailer. You will 

 be in heaven. Until you extend the existing barn and you do not have to fold 

 the wings, then you will be in second heaven!!


	


.. and in the 7th heaven, when you fly your Kitfox, up there! 

I have folded the wings of my model 3 only twice, because of convenience when working on the plane. But I was considering folding them at every flight, due to hangar problem that is now solved.

My idea was to make a dolly as an inverted pyramid, supporting the end of the fuselage, and going to a free-castoring wheel, under. The idea was to keep the plane horizontal when folding the wings, keep the fuel in the tanks, and ease the manoeuvre when moving in and out of a narrow door.

Another point is that, the wing, even with empty tanks, is heavy in a taildragger attitude. It needs two people to fold it; one to remove the pin, and one to hold the wing from swinging back uncontrolled. You need also to watch the flaperons as the come inside of the removed turtledeck. A dolly would make this a one-man's job, I think.

As I said, I haven't made the dolly so I don't know how well it would work. Maybe someone else on the list has tried it.



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

I have to disagree with you .

I have a Kitfox IV and a 40 foot wide hangar but I do take planes inside 

smaller doors in shop.

My  IV will take me about 5 minutes in total

remove turtle deck  (about 8 dzus fasteners) and fold down the flapperon 

bearings -   under 1 minute

disconnent the 2 flapperon rods   - 1 minute

Pull front spar pin  flold wing and attach to vert stab point with rod    1 

minute

same as above for other side    1 minute



push straight in the 9'W  x 7' H door.    1 minute.



could not be easier  really .



I do a Kitfox 1 and a AVID heavy same way but  they do  not require the 

flapperon control rods to be removed.



I will agree that having a wide hanger is easier.   Perhaps a lean too off 

existing building with a 40 foot open web joist would work well and very 

simple.

If you leave 4 feet overhang or more you don't even need a door.



Dave



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

I fly floats out of a pond that's about a mile or two away from my garage.

The road to the pond is about 1/2 paved secondary road and the other 1/2,

the way the cows come home through the woods.  To navigate the second 1/2 I

always de-fuel my wing tanks.



Folding the wings usually takes about three minutes single handed then add

around 1 minute to attach the turtledeck.  I have two turtle decks.  The one

I usually use is a one piece unit that I have a 1/4 wave com antenna

attached to.  I also have the folding turtle deck but to be honest I never

use it.



Defueling my wings is what takes a bit of time.  I always defuel my wing

tanks before folding the wings.  The siphoning of the wing tanks will take

about 5 minutes using the 3/8 tubing with a primer bulb ( I hate the taste

of gas!)  



Folding the wings takes almost exactly the same amount of time as the

unfolding.  I have heard people on the avid list complain that they have to

pull pins on their flapperon links to prevent the push rods from bending.  I

have no such problem.  My pins are snug enough that I can insert them with

my thumb.  To remove them I usually use a small screwdriver to push the pin

out.  I am using the clevis pin/locking zip pin set up and so far (only

around 25 hr.) I haven't seen either of the pins move or even swivel in

flight.



I usually also do a post flight inspection (while I still remember any

oddities in flight) and make notes on anything I see that is not 100%.

Included in that inspection is a check on the main strut attach point.  I

keep that part well lubricated because of the number of times I am folding

the wings.  To be totally honest I can fold or un-fold my wings faster alone

than with help 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

In 10 years I've NEVER had anyone help fold/unfold my 

IV wings.  Helpers tend to get in the way and it's 

easy to damage something.  I always fold/unfold by 

myself.  Many many cycles over the last decade and 

have never had a problem or any damage.  Takes 20 

mins off the trailer and maybe 25 mins to go back 

on...



Regards,



Ted  



--- Original Message ---

From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Is it practical to fold 

wings each flight?



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<dave(at)cfisher.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

I have to disagree with you .

I have a Kitfox IV and a 40 foot wide hangar but I 

do take planes inside 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  smaller doors in shop.

My  IV will take me about 5 minutes in total

remove turtle deck  (about 8 dzus fasteners) and 

fold down the flapperon 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  bearings -   under 1 minute

disconnent the 2 flapperon rods   - 1 minute

Pull front spar pin  flold wing and attach to vert 

stab point with rod    1 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  minute

same as above for other side    1 minute



push straight in the 9'W  x 7' H door.    1 minute.



could not be easier  really .



I do a Kitfox 1 and a AVID heavy same way but  they 

do  not require the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  flapperon control rods to be removed.



I will agree that having a wide hanger is easier.   

Perhaps a lean too off 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  existing building with a 40 foot open web joist 

would work well and very 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  simple.

If you leave 4 feet overhang or more you don't even 

need a door.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Dave

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

At 04:15 AM 9/18/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It needs two people to fold it; one to remove the pin, and one to hold the 

wing from swinging back uncontrolled. You need also to watch the flaperons 

as the come inside of the removed turtledeck. A dolly would make this a 

one-man's job, I think.


	


Just to let you know I have no problem folding solo. You do have to be 

CAREFUL, though. You can easily cause major damage. It's not like opening 

and closing a door. 

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

At 10:03 PM 9/17/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is it

practical to store the 'Fox in an enclosed trailer?  I know what the

sales brochures say, but what is the REAL story?


	


I have an 8 x 22' "toy box" that my plane fits into. (See Frapper (sp?) 

picture.) It takes me about 3 - 5 minutes to fold both wings, working 

methodically. Same for extension. Of course I set it up to make folding as 

easy as possible. If you're going out to the used market you will have to 

be wary, since many were built with folding incidental.



Putting it in the box takes another 10 minutes, since it barely fits, and I 

have to be careful. Taking it out - less than 5.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Guy,



It quite simple -- just go slow and hold the flapperon while folding so that 

it does not contact anything.



Dave

---

willett(at)bwn.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

I had a model IV that I kept in my barn and folded the wings 

everytime. What I did to prevent any gas problems was to build a tow 

bar stand, two wheels  about 3 feet apart with an upright high enough 

to hold the tail wheel in a level flight position.  I had two stands 

one with a T handle for hand moving and another with a hitch to pull 

the Fox out to the strip behind my ATV.  Before folding the wings 

just lift the tail into the cradle on the stand, in this level 

position the wings don't try to swing away while folding alone. Mike

ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Nick,



I was sort of on the other end - renting all the typical Cessna & Piper stuff 

and getting the services of a CFI, then went to a non equity club which had 

both - then that crapped out - sort of been airplane-less since because the 

rental places also crapped out around here after that.



What sold me on a Kitfox was flying one! (or two) - a model 7 and a model 4.  

I figure a guy will find some way to set up storage; but I can tell you the 

Kitfox is an absolute joy to fly. 



You know the two most dangerous words in aviation (Watch this)?  - well when 

the Kitfox demo owner said it; (once I got over my usual apprehension over 

people who say this), I discovered that the takeoff and landing (which the 

guy was what the guy was talking about) could be made ACROSS the runways of 

come airports I have been to (OK, he didn't takeoff across the runway, but 

could have).



I know full well how much runway a Warrior will eat up on a hot July day with 

full fuel and gross Wt. 



And, a Kitfox actually has roll control at or near the stall.



In a word - Kitfox - Do it!



Dave S.

St Paul, MN



Kitfox 7 - close but not quite yet



DO NOT Archive



On Monday 18 September 2006 12:03 am, Nick Scholtes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi KitFox Owners!



 My name is Nick Scholtes and I'm a typical renter/CFI who flies and

 teaches in all of the Cessna and Piper products that you find at the

 local FBO.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

I use an old desk for a work bench/toolbox and mounted

it on rollers.  I made sure that it was about equal to

level when my tailwheel is on the desk.  Makes folding

the wings much easier.  Not made for trailoring

though.

Multitasking?

Kurt S.

--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   > From: Ceashman(at)aol.com

 > If you have a landing strip with a barn and do not

 have to trailer. You will 

 > be in heaven. Until you extend the existing barn

 and you do not have to fold 

 > the wings, then you will be in second heaven!!

 ... and in the 7th heaven, when you fly your Kitfox,

 up there! 

 I have folded the wings of my model 3 only twice,

 because of convenience when working on the plane.

 But I was considering folding them at every flight,

 due to hangar problem that is now solved.

 My idea was to make a dolly as an inverted pyramid,

 supporting the end of the fuselage, and going to a

 free-castoring wheel, under. The idea was to keep

 the plane horizontal when folding the wings, keep

 the fuel in the tanks, and ease the manoeuvre when

 moving in and out of a narrow door.

 Another point is that, the wing, even with empty

 tanks, is heavy in a taildragger attitude. It needs

 two people to fold it; one to remove the pin, and

 one to hold the wing from swinging back

 uncontrolled. You need also to watch the flaperons

 as the come inside of the removed turtledeck. A

 dolly would make this a one-man's job, I think.

 As I said, I haven't made the dolly so I don't know

 how well it would work. Maybe someone else on the

 list has tried it.

 Cheers,

 Michel

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__________________________________________________

Ceashman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Another point is that, the wing, even with empty tanks, is heavy in a taildragger attitude. It needs two people to fold it; one to remove the pin, and one to hold the wing from swinging back uncontrolled. You need also to watch the flaperons as the come inside of the removed turtledeck. A dolly would make this a one-man's job, I think.

As I said, I haven't made the dolly so I don't know how well it would work. Maybe someone else on the list has tried it.



Cheers,

Michel

 

Hi Michel.

 You are correct about the attitude of the airplane while folding the wings. It can be done single handed but not with large quantities of fuel in the tanks and you do not need any distractions or you will bend something.

 I think the wheeled dolly (big wheels because of the farm like setting) is a brilliant idea. You winch up the plane as you would onto a trailer, until she is horizontal (good position) and then folding the wings is easy 'cause they are horizontal. And you do not have to remove fuel from the tanks. But I would suggest having having shut off valves to stop fuel migrating from one tank to the other, in case of unlevel ground. 

 Don't forget to place the shut off valves on the pre-flight check list!

  

 Cheers Eric.

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Well guys, I posted earlier today that is takes about 5 minutes to fold or  unfold wings.  True enough if it was level  the wings would not have  the extra weight going backwards but it really is not a issue when folding as  much as when you fold back out.  I have folded when on floats and that  is real easy. If you havea floor jack in your shop set the tailwheel on it and  jack it up to a more level attitude to fold wings out. And like wise before  folding wings just lift the tail onto the jack and jack it up.  

  

 As far as the bolt idea with nuts....... well sure why not but don't  be torquing that nut down and crush your attach points.  The simple  clevis pin works pretty well and you can see the safety pin  on pre-flight as well as when you are flying. 

  

 I pull them into shop door on Straight skis  and once at the  concrete, put a 2 x 6  on top of floor jack pad and jack up under the  axles and just pull the plane in.

  

 On the lighter side of things ,  would you rather fold and unfold your  Kitfox to fly or have to do all the unfolding of chutes on those para planes.  ?

  

  

 Dave 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Michel-

I have folded my wings alone on many occasions during the building of 

my plane, and have a few small scars on one flaperon to show for it. I 

hold the wing by the lift strut while pulling the clevis pin, then 

while holding the wing, I walk around the end of the wing and get hold 

of the flap, and allow the wing to swing back while pivoting the flap 

into position. I don't fold the wings any more, but it helps to use a 

small block of wood on a string that is

placed between the wing and flap. This block keeps the flap from 

swinging down while the wing is being folded into position. When the 

flap is rotated upwards, the block will fall out, being retained by the 

string.

The scars that I mentioned are from not paying close enough attention 

while folding and having the flap rub against the flap horn 

hinge...which I forgot to hinge down.

Happily, I have a hangar at a grass strip 4 miles from home and the 

folding issue is no longer an issue...knock on wood. : )



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200



On Monday, September 18, 2006, at 08:15  PM, Ceashman(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Another point is that, the wing, even with empty tanks, is heavy in a 

 taildragger attitude. It needs two people to fold it; one to remove 

 the pin, and one to hold the wing from swinging back uncontrolled. You 

 need also to watch the flaperons as the come inside of the removed 

 turtledeck. A dolly would make this a one-man's job, I think.

 As I said, I haven't made the dolly so I don't know how well it would 

 work. Maybe someone else on the list has tried it.



 Cheers,

 Michel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Ceashman(at)aol.com

 I think the wheeled dolly (big wheels because of the farm like setting) is a 

 brilliant idea.


	


Thank you Eric, it's good to know. Not that I need to fold my wings for the moment, but I am in a hangar that is condemned. We have to build a new one but ... you know how it is. I might, one day, be in need to a temporary situation where I'll need to foil the wings. And your mentioning of a big wheel makes me think more ... in direction of a bicycle wheel. Why not? An old bicycle, cut the frame and keep the front wheel and the fork. Hum, sounds good. What do you think?



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Nick(at)Scholtes1.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

Hi KitFoxers!



I just wanted to thank you for your input to my question about how 

practical it is to fold a KitFox each time you fly it.  Here's what I heard:



-- The guys who do it regularly say it's practical, and not too painful.



-- There were multiple suggestions about how to make it less painful 

(much thanks!)



-- Some folks who haven't done it regularly thought it was or might be 

not practical.



Overall, it sounds practical and painless enough to me.



One thought I had regarding draining fuel when folding the wings:  Most 

of the fuel caps I've seen in pictures (remember, I haven't seen or 

flown a KitFox yet!) have a curved vent tube coming from them, and I 

assume this is where the fuel leaks out when folding the wings.  So, why 

not, when folding, slip a piece of fuel hose over this vent, and attach 

the other end of this length of hose to the highest point of the 

fuselage (probably the spot where the pin is removed to fold the 

wings)?  This is basically creating a "stand-pipe" for the fuel.  Yes, 

it will flow up the hose, but it won't leak out.  It will remove the 

requirement to drain the tanks (except for the weight issue that many 

folks pointed out).  Anyway, just a thought from somebody who doesn't 

know what he's talking about!



So, now that you've convinced me that it's practical to fold the wings, 

and you've also convinced me that they are fun to fly, I want to buy 

one!  Two more questions:



-- Who's got one for sale?  Email me off-list with what you've got. 



-- Who can I get to give me a ride?  I live near Chicago, and I'm 

willing to travel.



Thanks again for all the help!



Nick Scholtes

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: Is it practical to fold wings each flight?

This would seem like a workable idea, but it puts the gasket under the 

cap as the next place to leak, and that's a real possibility. You could 

also attach the hose to the other cap vent, but the weak links are the 

cap gaskets again.



Lynn

On Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at 04:30  PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 One thought I had regarding draining fuel when folding the wings:  

 Most of the fuel caps I've seen in pictures (remember, I haven't seen 

 or flown a KitFox yet!) have a curved vent tube coming from them, and 

 I assume this is where the fuel leaks out when folding the wings.  So, 

 why not, when folding, slip a piece of fuel hose over this vent, and 

 attach the other end of this length of hose to the highest point of 

 the fuselage (probably the spot where the pin is removed to fold the 

 wings)?  This is basically creating a "stand-pipe" for the fuel.  Yes, 

 it will flow up the hose, but it won't leak out.  It will remove the 

 requirement to drain the tanks (except for the weight issue that many 

 folks pointed out).  Anyway, just a thought from somebody who doesn't 

 know what he's talking about!

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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