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Short Takeoff

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Ben-PA

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Berwick, Pa

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

What is your technique for short takeoff? Do you do anything different if on pavement or grass?

Might as well ask for your short landing technique, too.

Thanks!

Ben

_________________
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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

I don't know who this question was addressed to, so I'll jump in with 

what I'm being taught. My instructor takes every opportunity to ask me 

"What is the objective of the shortfield takeoff?"   and   "What is the 

one-word answer to describe the method for making a shortfield 

takeoff?"   (He is readying me for the upcoming checkride for my Sport 

Pilot Certificate)

The answer that he expects to hear is "the objective is to accelerate 

as quickly as possible to Vx, lift off at Vx, clear the end-of-field 

obstruction, then resume the climb at Vy."

The second answer is "acceleration"

He queries me also on softfield techniques:   "What is the objective 

for making a softfield takeoff?"   and "What is the one-word answer to 

making a softfield takeoff?"

The first answer he expects is: "Get the weight off the wheels as soon 

as possible"   And the one-word answer is  "lift"



So to these ends, a shortfield takeoff requires holding the brakes, go 

to WOT, release brakes, get the tail up as quick as possible (given the 

conditions of the field), lift off at just before Vx speed, stay in 

ground effects until Vx has been achieved, clear the obstacle, then 

nose down slightly to Vy and continue climbout at Vy.



The softfield technique requires keeping the tail as low as possible to 

provide angle of attack (and to keep the plane from nosing over due to 

friction), then lift-off at Vy.



Pavement allows bringing up the tail quicker (there is no soft field to 

add drag to the mains, hence the tail can come up quicker allowing 

faster acceleration) than on grass, snow, mud, etc., where the friction 

against the mains requires the tail to be kept low.



As to short landings, bring the plane in as slow as possible, touch 

down early, and get on the brakes, keeping the plane straight.



This is what I THINK I've been taught. If I'm wrong, jump in and tell 

me, because I'm just learning these techniques and do not consider 

myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination. I'm really just 

"thinking out loud" and looking for input from others as to what I've 

learned.



Lynn



On Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at 10:54  AM, Ben-PA wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What is your technique for short takeoff? Do you do anything different 

 if on pavement or grass?

 Might as well ask for your short landing technique, too.

 Thanks!

 Ben



 --------

 Sign up on the Kitfox Frappr Map:

 http://www.frappr.com/kitfox

 You can see where fellow Kitfoxers live and pictures of their planes. 

 Be sure to post some pictures of you, your plane, or share the scenery 

 of the Kitfox world.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62517#62517

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Ben-PA

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Berwick, Pa

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Short Takeoff

Thanks, Lynn, this is addressed to anyone who wants to respond. I read about some guys installing taller gear for short field ops and decided to ask about technique. I'm wondering if full flaps and tail down will get off pavement quickest.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

Good post Lynn,



Only thing you forgot was flaps.



I bet the use of over 20 degrees will stir up the pot here.

Depending on your model Kitfox -- the more the merrier on flaps if you know 

how to use them.



30 to 35 degrees will get you off the ground or water alot quicker than 20 

degrees on my IV.

I have heard about limiters ec but really seems only a issue with the model 

1,2 and maybe 3 untill the flapleron differential started.



For landing over 20 degrees really does not help much but agressive 

sideslipping does.



Dave

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

Flaps...oops, I just busted my checkride. : )

I guess I could say that I was leaving the use of flaps up to the 

individual pilot, but the truth is I forgot to mention that I use 10 

deg. for all takeoffs, short, soft, or short and soft. I haven't really 

taken the time to try no flaps or full (20 deg. in my case) flaps. I 

use full, 20 degrees for all landings so far. This seems to work for 

all the crosswind landings that I've made so far as well.



Lynn

On Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at 12:29  PM, Dave wrote:



[quote] 



 Good post Lynn,



 Only thing you forgot was flaps.



 I bet the use of over 20 degrees will stir up the pot here.

 Depending on your model Kitfox -- the more the merrier on flaps if you 

 know how to use them.



 30 to 35 degrees will get you off the ground or water alot quicker 

 than 20 degrees on my IV.

 I have heard about limiters ec but really seems only a issue with the 

 model 1,2 and maybe 3 untill the flapleron differential started.



 For landing over 20 degrees really does not help much but agressive 

 sideslipping does.



 Dave

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

Good answer dave.... used these techniques for years and taught the same way from a half dozen instructors... 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Date: 2006/09/19 Tue AM 11:29:47 CDT

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Short Takeoff

[quote]

Good post Lynn,

Only thing you forgot was flaps.

I bet the use of over 20 degrees will stir up the pot here.

Depending on your model Kitfox -- the more the merrier on flaps if you know 

how to use them.

30 to 35 degrees will get you off the ground or water alot quicker than 20 

degrees on my IV.

I have heard about limiters ec but really seems only a issue with the model 

1,2 and maybe 3 untill the flapleron differential started.

For landing over 20 degrees really does not help much but agressive 

sideslipping does.

Dave

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: Short Takeoff

The one other thing that my instructor has taught me is the softfield 

landing, and that one is a little harder for me to visualize. He says 

to bring the plane in as slow as possible, let the tail touch first, 

then add a little power to drag the plane along with the mains off the 

ground, then letting it settle in with a reduction in power. I've only 

practiced a couple of these and it was tricky, but it worked. It does 

take a little more runway to do this one. It was explained that this is 

working with the "region of reverse command", or "the back side of the 

power curve",  which I'm still trying to get squared away in my mind. 

It may have been this maneuver that caused the strain and subsequent 

breaking of my tailwheel spring.  : )



Lynn

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Short Takeoff (FAA videos)

I've recently happened upon some mid-70s vintage FAA-GA Videos that some of you may enjoy. 

Short/soft field ops (current topic)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5153377456393829236



Others links should show along side of the video above or can be found at Google Video - a search for 'FAA training' will bring up most. Other videos include Float Flying, Mountain Flying, Icing, Flying basics and several others, some better than others, I' guess that all would be entertaining to 

most listers.



I've found myself with some time on my hands due to a table saw incident. I still have all ten digits though my projects are stalled while my right index finger heals.



Richard

-  Now preaching safety in all thing including flight.

- Coffee and full alert before mags or saw are switched on!

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: Short Takeoff

Ouch! Good thing it wasn't your horn-honking finger, 

Richard...seriously, take care of yourself. I hope to get down your way 

one of these days when I get Certified as a SP.



Lynn

On Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at 04:05  PM, Richard Rabbers wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rira1950(at)yahoo.com>



 I've recently happened upon some mid-70s vintage FAA-GA Videos that 

 some of you may enjoy.

 Short/soft field ops (current topic)

 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5153377456393829236



 Others links should show along side of the video above or can be found 

 at Google Video - a search for 'FAA training' will bring up most. 

 Other videos include Float Flying, Mountain Flying, Icing, Flying 

 basics and several others, some better than others, I' guess that all 

 would be entertaining to

 most listers.



 I've found myself with some time on my hands due to a table saw 

 incident. I still have all ten digits though my projects are stalled 

 while my right index finger heals.



 Richard

 -  Now preaching safety in all thing including flight.

 - Coffee and full alert before mags or saw are switched on!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62575#62575

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: Short Takeoff

On Sep 19, 2006, at 10:05 PM, Richard Rabbers wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Short/soft field ops (current topic)

 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5153377456393829236


	


Cool, but this one is the most hairy landing I've ever seen!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7047249536078175239



Wow!



Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Short Takeoff

 	  Quote: 	
		   . I hope to get down your way 

one of these days when I get Certified as a SP.

	




Lynn,

Congratulations on your 'almost' pilpt status.

Take care in all things.



Honk when you fly over West Main Street near the port.

I'll be watching for you.



Richard



- do not archive

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Short Takeoff

At 03:15 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Cool, but this one is the most hairy landing I've ever seen!


	


Well. That sets a new standard for me! I guess I'd better get out and 

practice more. Gonna have to change the 5 x 5 tires, though.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Short Takeoff

At 01:05 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I still have all ten digits though my projects are stalled while my right 

index finger heals.


	


You mention only ten digits. From your name I would have guessed 21. It 

must have been pretty serious. 

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Short Takeoff (long landing)

Great short landing Michel. Definetly adventure seeker stuff.

---------------

This one is quite different, a very bad day at the airport. 

The pilot should have stayed home and cut wood!



http://airlinepilotcentral.com/web_video/now_showing/citation_runway_overshoot_20060904136.html



do not archive

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Short Takeoff

Lynn:



Sounds to me like your instructor is doing a good job

and you are learning the lesson.



Jose



--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 I don't know who this question was addressed to, so

 I'll jump in with 

 what I'm being taught. My instructor takes every

 opportunity to ask me 

 "What is the objective of the shortfield takeoff?"  

 and   "What is the 

 one-word answer to describe the method for making a

 shortfield 

 takeoff?"   (He is readying me for the upcoming

 checkride for my Sport 

 Pilot Certificate)

 The answer that he expects to hear is "the objective

 is to accelerate 

 as quickly as possible to Vx, lift off at Vx, clear

 the end-of-field 

 obstruction, then resume the climb at Vy."

 The second answer is "acceleration"

 He queries me also on softfield techniques:   "What

 is the objective 

 for making a softfield takeoff?"   and "What is the

 one-word answer to 

 making a softfield takeoff?"

 The first answer he expects is: "Get the weight off

 the wheels as soon 

 as possible"   And the one-word answer is  "lift"

 

 So to these ends, a shortfield takeoff requires

 holding the brakes, go 

 to WOT, release brakes, get the tail up as quick as

 possible (given the 

 conditions of the field), lift off at just before Vx

 speed, stay in 

 ground effects until Vx has been achieved, clear the

 obstacle, then 

 nose down slightly to Vy and continue climbout at

 Vy.

 

 The softfield technique requires keeping the tail as

 low as possible to 

 provide angle of attack (and to keep the plane from

 nosing over due to 

 friction), then lift-off at Vy.

 

 Pavement allows bringing up the tail quicker (there

 is no soft field to 

 add drag to the mains, hence the tail can come up

 quicker allowing 

 faster acceleration) than on grass, snow, mud, etc.,

 where the friction 

 against the mains requires the tail to be kept low.

 

 As to short landings, bring the plane in as slow as

 possible, touch 

 down early, and get on the brakes, keeping the plane

 straight.

 

 This is what I THINK I've been taught. If I'm wrong,

 jump in and tell 

 me, because I'm just learning these techniques and

 do not consider 

 myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

 I'm really just 

 "thinking out loud" and looking for input from

 others as to what I've 

 learned.

 

 Lynn

 

 On Tuesday, September 19, 2006, at 10:54  AM, Ben-PA

 wrote:

 

 > 

 <ben(at)gmpexpress.net>

 >

 > What is your technique for short takeoff? Do you

 do anything different 

 > if on pavement or grass?

 > Might as well ask for your short landing

 technique, too.

 > Thanks!

 > Ben

 >

 > --------

 > Sign up on the Kitfox Frappr Map:

 > http://www.frappr.com/kitfox

 > You can see where fellow Kitfoxers live and

 pictures of their planes. 

 > Be sure to post some pictures of you, your plane,

 or share the scenery 

 > of the Kitfox world.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 >



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=62517#62517
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 



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