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Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

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rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an already 

fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage. Apparently the attach 

fittings would have to be wider.



Is this possible?

RON

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an already 

fabricated 601HDS stabilIizer to a 601XL fuselage. Apparently the attach 

fittings would have to be wider.



Is this possible?

RON

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Both models use the same stabilizer and rudder so it should fit.



On Sep 25, 2006, at 8:30 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>



 Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an  

 already fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage.  

 Apparently the attach fittings would have to be wider.



 Is this possible?

 RON


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Hi Bryan

That is what I had read in the literature and on the website.

Apparently there has to be some modifications made since the 601XL fuselage 

is a bit wider. I was told this by a fella at the factory. .

Ron

 	  Quote: 	

Both models use the same stabilizer and rudder so it should fit.

On Sep 25, 2006, at 8:30 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>

>

>Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an  already 

>fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage.  Apparently the attach 

>fittings would have to be wider.

>

>Is this possible?

>RON

--

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Must be a recent change then because I built my stabilizer in '98  

right after the first prototype of the XL with the bungee main gear  

came out before the design was changed to the current spring gear  

mains. My stabilizer fit right on the new rear fuselage kit they sent  

me in 2000. The tail kit I received was the same kit they were  

selling for the HD/HDS at the time. I don't have my plans with me  

right now or any measurements. I don't think the tail of the fuselage  

has changed between the HD and XL. If I get out to the hangar soon,  

I'll take some measurements.

On Sep 25, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

 Hi Bryan

 That is what I had read in the literature and on the website.

 Apparently there has to be some modifications made since the 601XL  

 fuselage is a bit wider. I was told this by a fella at the factory. .

 Ron

>

> Both models use the same stabilizer and rudder so it should fit.

>

> On Sep 25, 2006, at 8:30 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>

>> 

>> <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

>>

>> Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an   

>> already fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage.   

>> Apparently the attach fittings would have to be wider.

>>

>> Is this possible?

>> RON

>

>

--

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

I don't know if there has been a change to the mounting of the 

stabilizer.  However, I do know there have been numerous changes to 

the XL design to make it conform with the consensus LSA standard.



Unfortunately, the information on design changes on the drawings is 

not very good.  It is also impossible to figure out who to discuss 

the changes with since they don't put the designer's name on the 

drawings when they make a change.  All my drawings still have only C. 

Heintz name on them even though he retired several years ago.  Maybe 

some day the designers at ZAC will start using industry standards for 

documentation of designs.



Paul

XL fuselage

At 02:45 AM 9/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Must be a recent change then because I built my stabilizer in '98

right after the first prototype of the XL with the bungee main gear

came out before the design was changed to the current spring gear

mains. My stabilizer fit right on the new rear fuselage kit they sent

me in 2000. The tail kit I received was the same kit they were

selling for the HD/HDS at the time. I don't have my plans with me

right now or any measurements. I don't think the tail of the fuselage

has changed between the HD and XL. If I get out to the hangar soon,

I'll take some measurements.


	


---------------------------------------------

Paul Mulwitz

32013 NE Dial Road

Camas, WA 98607

---------------------------------------------

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Whoa, lets back up the train on this one a bit. Yes, Chris Heintz is

Retired form the everyday rush of running a business, which means he may

or may not be found in his office, also he may or may not be at an

airshow. However, he is NOT retired from designing new planes, he is

still involved in the evolution of his designs and he is available for

consultation on structural changes to his aircraft. SO the reason why

you only see C.Heintz name on the plans Is due to the fact that Chris is

still approving changes. Now the difference in style on the plans is due

to the fact that Chris is a hands on master and uses a computer for a

hat stand. SO all inputs come from hand drawings and need to be imputed

by another hand into CAD.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

--

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Hi Bryan

Appreciate your efforts. The HDS tail was made from a tail kit produced in 

2000-2001 (approx) and the XL fuselage will be the current one.

Sure would like to use this completed tail kit on the XL.

Until I talked to the guy I got on the phone at the Zenith factory in 

Missouri I was quite certain that all the 601 tail kits were the same. All 

their literature and their website states this.

Thanks for checking for me.

Ron

 	  Quote: 	
		  Must be a recent change then because I built my stabilizer in '98  right 

after the first prototype of the XL with the bungee main gear  came out 

before the design was changed to the current spring gear  mains. My 

stabilizer fit right on the new rear fuselage kit they sent  me in 2000. 

The tail kit I received was the same kit they were  selling for the HD/HDS 

at the time. I don't have my plans with me  right now or any measurements. 

I don't think the tail of the fuselage  has changed between the HD and XL. 

If I get out to the hangar soon,  I'll take some measurements.

On Sep 25, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>

>

>Hi Bryan

>That is what I had read in the literature and on the website.

>Apparently there has to be some modifications made since the 601XL  

>fuselage is a bit wider. I was told this by a fella at the factory. .

>Ron

>>

>>Both models use the same stabilizer and rudder so it should fit.

>>

>>On Sep 25, 2006, at 8:30 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>>

>>>

>>><rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

>>>

>>>Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an   already 

>>>fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage.   Apparently the 

>>>attach fittings would have to be wider.

>>>

>>>Is this possible?

>>>RON

>>

>>

>>

>>

--

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

todd(at)toddtown.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

I just finished the elevator I received 2 weeks ago. I can say it is  

quite a bit different than that XL elevator I made a few years ago,  

which means it is different from the HDS. Seems you could upgrade the  

older style elevator to the new style. This does not address the  

stabilizer of course. The elevator differences I noted were:



1) Use of A5 rivets around cutout.



2) A strap that connects the back of the upper and lower horns. This  

also uses 2 AS5 (steel) rivets.



3) Trim tab is completely different, nearly full span on left side.



Todd Osborne

EMail: todd(at)toddtown.com

Web: www.toddtown.com

Yahoo Messenger: toddmosborne(at)yahoo.com

MSN Messenger: todd(at)toddtown.com

Skype: toddmosborne

On Sep 26, 2006, at 9:23 AM, Ron Lalonde wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

 Hi Bryan

 Appreciate your efforts. The HDS tail was made from a tail kit  

 produced in 2000-2001 (approx) and the XL fuselage will be the  

 current one.

 Sure would like to use this completed tail kit on the XL.

 Until I talked to the guy I got on the phone at the Zenith factory  

 in Missouri I was quite certain that all the 601 tail kits were the  

 same. All their literature and their website states this.

 Thanks for checking for me.



 Ron



> Must be a recent change then because I built my stabilizer in '98   

> right after the first prototype of the XL with the bungee main  

> gear  came out before the design was changed to the current spring  

> gear  mains. My stabilizer fit right on the new rear fuselage kit  

> they sent  me in 2000. The tail kit I received was the same kit  

> they were  selling for the HD/HDS at the time. I don't have my  

> plans with me  right now or any measurements. I don't think the  

> tail of the fuselage  has changed between the HD and XL. If I get  

> out to the hangar soon,  I'll take some measurements.

> On Sep 25, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>

>> 

>> <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

>>

>> Hi Bryan

>> That is what I had read in the literature and on the website.

>> Apparently there has to be some modifications made since the  

>> 601XL  fuselage is a bit wider. I was told this by a fella at the  

>> factory. .

>> Ron

>>

>>

>>>

>>> Both models use the same stabilizer and rudder so it should fit.

>>>

>>> On Sep 25, 2006, at 8:30 PM, Ron Lalonde wrote:

>>>

>>>> 

>>>> <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

>>>>

>>>> Has anyone any idea about how hard it would be to retrofit an    

>>>> already fabricated 601HDS stabilator to a 601XL fuselage.    

>>>> Apparently the attach fittings would have to be wider.

>>>>

>>>> Is this possible?

>>>> RON

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

> --

> Bryan Martin

> N61BM, CH 601 XL,

> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

> do not archive.

mcr01steiner(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

On Tuesday, September 26, 2006, at 07:57AM, Ron Lalonde <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Bryan

Appreciate your efforts. The HDS tail was made from a tail kit produced in 

2000-2001 (approx) and the XL fuselage will be the current one.

Sure would like to use this completed tail kit on the XL.


	


In updates 2005a fuselage bottom skin ( 6-B-1-4 ) was changed to one piece ( 6-B-1-3 was deleted), Front H.T. Frame ( 6-B-1-1) was widened to fit the straight side lines from 214mm to 232mm and as consequence the stabilizer attachments ( 6-T-2 ) were moved accordingly. Material thickness of the front and rear spar  of the stabilizer was increased from t=.025" to t=.032" respectively t=.040" , just to mention the most obvious changes. More changes in the elevator (trim tab) etc.



Conclusion: The "old" stabilizer won't fit right away on the new fuselage.



Christoph Steiner



601XL

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

So it won't do any good to measure my fuselage since I have one of  

the early kits. The HD stabilizer would probably fit on my XL but not  

a more recent one.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

> 

> <rlalonde(at)hotmail.com>

> Hi Bryan

> Appreciate your efforts. The HDS tail was made from a tail kit  

> produced in

> 2000-2001 (approx) and the XL fuselage will be the current one.

> Sure would like to use this completed tail kit on the XL.



 In updates 2005a fuselage bottom skin ( 6-B-1-4 ) was changed to  

 one piece ( 6-B-1-3 was deleted), Front H.T. Frame ( 6-B-1-1) was  

 widened to fit the straight side lines from 214mm to 232mm and as  

 consequence the stabilizer attachments ( 6-T-2 ) were moved  

 accordingly. Material thickness of the front and rear spar  of the  

 stabilizer was increased from t=.025" to t=.032" respectively t=. 

 040" , just to mention the most obvious changes. More changes in  

 the elevator (trim tab) etc.



 Conclusion: The "old" stabilizer won't fit right away on the new  

 fuselage.



 Christoph Steiner



 601XL




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

This is not something to guess about. Quit farting around and contact 

Zenith. Sorry, there are some things that are out of the realm of the list. 

Even if your grandkids are ineligible for a medical by the time you get a 

response.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

---

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Bill:

I posed this question to BOTH Zenith Aircraft and the fellas at 

Can-ZacAviation (the Canadian distributors) BEFORE I posted to this list. So 

I wasnt farting around Bill. Both places I might add were freindly and 

knowledgeable but did not have the information at hand that I needed. I knew 

that a HDS builder with XL experience could provide the answer. Having the 

opportunity to purchase a HDS tail kit at an excellent price, I wanted to be 

absolutely, positively sure that the HDS tail kit would fit the current 601 

XL.



I did get a few replies as well stating that all 601 versions had the same 

tail kit. This information is supported by the website and ZAC literature 

which states this. Unfortunately, I have found that this is definately not 

the case with the XL version from 2005 on.



I disagree with this question being "beyond the realm of this list". You 

should give the fellas on this list more credit than that. As you can see in 

the paragraph below, my question was answered quite adequately by a 601 XL 

builder by the name of Christoph Steiner.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In updates 2005a fuselage bottom skin ( 6-B-1-4 ) was changed to one piece (

6-B-1-3 was deleted), Front H.T. Frame ( 6-B-1-1) was widened to fit the

straight side lines from 214mm to 232mm and as consequence the stabilizer

attachments ( 6-T-2 ) were moved accordingly. Material thickness of the 

front

and rear spar  of the stabilizer was increased from t=.025" to t=.032"

respectively t=.040" , just to mention the most obvious changes. More 

changes in

the elevator (trim tab) etc.



Conclusion: The "old" stabilizer won't fit right away on the new fuselage.

Christoph Steiner, 601XL

---------------------------------------------------------

Thank-you Chris for the thorough answer to my question. Much appreciated. 

Knowing that both the front and rear spar thicknesses have been increased 

does not make the HDS stabilator an option on a new 601 XL.

As a new member of this list, and a new builder, I would like to be able to 

draw on the extensive experience of the Zenith Group.

I would like to think that no question is too stupid to ask!!



 	  Quote: 	
		  



This is not something to guess about. Quit farting around and contact 

Zenith. Sorry, there are some things that are out of the realm of the list. 

Even if your grandkids are ineligible for a medical by the time you get a 

response.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa


	


[quote]---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

My apologies. If you're satisfied, that's all that counts.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

---

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

No apology required.

I will be sticking with the older pre-2005 tail kit. The prognosis is not 

too bad. The job can be done.



Cant say enough about the help that the Zenith gang has provided, both at 

the factory and at the Canadian distributorship. If you ever have a 

question, Mark and Dave at Can-Zac are the most helpful people you could run 

into.



Thanks to all you guys on the list as well. Taking time to answer questions 

from a newbie like myself is truly appreciated.

I will try not to pester you guys to death!!!!

Thanks again



Ron

Debert, Nova Scotia, Canada

601 XL, #6520



DO NOT ARCHIVE

[quote]My apologies. If you're satisfied, that's all that counts.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

>Bill:

>I posed this question to BOTH Zenith Aircraft and the fellas at 

>Can-ZacAviation (the Canadian distributors) BEFORE I posted to this list. 

>So I wasnt farting around Bill. Both places I might add were freindly and 

>knowledgeable but did not have the information at hand that I needed. I 

>knew that a HDS builder with XL experience could provide the answer. 

>Having the opportunity to purchase a HDS tail kit at an excellent price, I 

>wanted to be absolutely, positively sure that the HDS tail kit would fit 

>the current 601 XL.

>

>I did get a few replies as well stating that all 601 versions had the same 

>tail kit. This information is supported by the website and ZAC literature 

>which states this. Unfortunately, I have found that this is definately not 

>the case with the XL version from 2005 on.

>

>I disagree with this question being "beyond the realm of this list". You 

>should give the fellas on this list more credit than that. As you can see 

>in the paragraph below, my question was answered quite adequately by a 601 

>XL builder by the name of Christoph Steiner.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In updates 2005a fuselage bottom skin ( 6-B-1-4 ) was changed to one piece 

>(

>6-B-1-3 was deleted), Front H.T. Frame ( 6-B-1-1) was widened to fit the

>straight side lines from 214mm to 232mm and as consequence the stabilizer

>attachments ( 6-T-2 ) were moved accordingly. Material thickness of the 

>front

>and rear spar  of the stabilizer was increased from t=.025" to t=.032"

>respectively t=.040" , just to mention the most obvious changes. More 

>changes in

>the elevator (trim tab) etc.

>

>Conclusion: The "old" stabilizer won't fit right away on the new fuselage.

>Christoph Steiner, 601XL

>---------------------------------------------------------

>Thank-you Chris for the thorough answer to my question. Much appreciated. 

>Knowing that both the front and rear spar thicknesses have been increased 

>does not make the HDS stabilator an option on a new 601 XL.

>As a new member of this list, and a new builder, I would like to be able 

>to draw on the extensive experience of the Zenith Group.

>I would like to think that no question is too stupid to ask!!

>

>>

>>

>>This is not something to guess about. Quit farting around and contact 

>>Zenith. Sorry, there are some things that are out of the realm of the 

>>list. Even if your grandkids are ineligible for a medical by the time you 

>>get a response.

>>Bill Naumuk

>>HDS Fuselage

>>Townville, Pa

>

>>---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Ron-

    I agree with your recommendation of Mark. His response time is nearly 

instantaneous. Other than having seen him on the HBH DVDs, I've had no 

correspondence with Dave, but it's obvious they're a team. Check out their 

DVDs-you won't be sorry.

    I also encourage you to keep up your thorough research. Many times it 

takes weeks of posting to come up with the information you're looking for, 

and it might come from a direction totally different from what you expected 

to begin with. You have to realize that I only saw an early portion of the 

string when I offered my comments. There may have been additions, but it's 

only human nature to respond to the first stimulus.

    The list is a powerful tool, but you have to be patient in learning how 

to use it. You'll eventually find out that I give listers a lot more credit 

than you think I do now.

    Good building!

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

---

Ramills(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Listers,

  I built my stabilizer in 2004. Received the remainder of the kit in 

November 2005. Zenith informed me that the front  mount on my stabilizer 

must be widened to fit the fuselage in the current kit. I believe the 

new width was 14mm wider but am not looking at the plans. I spoke to 

Roger about this as it would require removing the skin and drilling new 

holes in the spar very close to the current holes. I believe that will 

cause problems with edge distance. I am not to the point of making a 

decision yet but am looking at making a new fuse bulkhead to correctly 

fit my stab as has been done by at least one other builder. So yes, the 

mounting is wider on the newer version XL than before. I do not know 

about the 601HDS.



Rodney Mills

Northport, AL

601XL / Corvair

Working on wings

rlalonde(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Fitting 601HDS Stabilizer to 601XL

Hi Rodney

Here are two replies reference the fix for this problem that I received from 

Tom L., one

of the builders on the list. By the time I get far enough along in my 

project this problem will probably

have a illustrated and documented fix in place.

The guys at the Zenith factory, and the Can-Zac fellas are right on the ball 

with all this stuff....I am impressed. This Tom L. has solved this problem 

too.

It does not appear to be much of a problem to fix. (But dont forget, I am a 

Newbie!! LOL)

----

Shim's ---.063 and .125 (1/8")  "cut to fit"  like the top of 6B1-9 ---the 

shims go

on the inside of 6B1-9 with the .125 lappin over the upper longerons.

  Will transfer the load and whould work just fine---anywaythats what I did

and the DAR approved it.   Tnx,  Tom

---------

Yes, the  stablizer attach fittings seem to fit nice and close in the 

shimmed area top

of 6B1-9--the same three rivits at top of 6B1-9 should go through the .125 

shim.

the .063 served as a fill spacer -- the .063 is about the same thickness as 

the

skin .025 and the upper longeron .040 and by the time you spray the ship and 

other two

items with eching primer or zinc, it takes up the space for a good 

spacer---I also

run the fix by Roger at ZAC.

Seem to be just as good as its ever going to get.  Good luck.

You can type at me any time on anything  else.    Tom L.

---------------------------------------

Hope this helps you

Ron



-----------------------------------------------------------------------



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Listers,

  I built my stabilizer in 2004. Received the remainder of the kit in 

November 2005. Zenith informed me that the front  mount on my stabilizer 

must be widened to fit the fuselage in the current kit. I believe the new 

width was 14mm wider but am not looking at the plans. I spoke to Roger 

about this as it would require removing the skin and drilling new holes in 

the spar very close to the current holes. I believe that will cause 

problems with edge distance. I am not to the point of making a decision yet 

but am looking at making a new fuse bulkhead to correctly fit my stab as 

has been done by at least one other builder. So yes, the mounting is wider 

on the newer version XL than before. I do not know about the 601HDS.



Rodney Mills

Northport, AL

601XL / Corvair

Working on wings

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