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Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Guys,

  

     Been flying a lot and I'm real  close to taking the Sport Pilot practical test - hopefully in the first week of  Oct.  A couple of questions:  What is the best glide speed for a Kolb  MkIII?  What is Vx and Vy?  (I'm around 50 to 55 for both of them and  can't see hardly any difference in climb rate.)  Will take any acvice you  can give.

  

 AzDave

  

 Do Not Archive

    [quote][b]

_________________
AzDave

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

Az DaveYou guys should all know the V-speeds; it's pretty basic info. Do yourself a favor and look them up; less than a dozen.

Won't your SP examiner ask these? He should.

Vx is best angle-of-climb speed, Vy is best rate-of-climb. Important to know which to use if you want to climb over a ridge or simply gain altitude quickly. 

Best-glide speed should be implanted IN CAPS, in your brain before you ever fly anywhere, anytime. If the engine quits you don't want to waste any time trying to remember it.

do not archive



On Sep 25, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Dave & Eve Pelletier wrote:

[quote]  Guys,

  

     Been flying a lot and I'm real close to taking the Sport Pilot practical test - hopefully in the first week of Oct.  A couple of questions:  What is the best glide speed for a Kolb MkIII?  What is Vx and Vy?  (I'm around 50 to 55 for both of them and can't see hardly any difference in climb rate.)  Will take any acvice you can give.

  

 AzDave

  

 Do Not Archive

  	  Quote: 	
		  

ntribution



	
[b]

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

Russ,

  

     I agree.  But where do I  look them up?  That's my question.  I'm about the fifth owner of this  plane and no paperwork came with it.  In testing, best glide seems to be at  50 mph.  I know what Vx and Vy are defined as.  I don't know if there  are any "official" numbers for the Kolb MkIII.  Vx and Vy seem to be 50 and  55 mph, but that's what I get when I test it.  There seems to be no  difference in climb from one of these speeds to the other.  Depending on  conditions, I'm climbing at 200 to 300 fpm at both of these speeds.  If  I go to higher or lower speeds, the climb rate drops.  I forgot to  mention, I'm flying a MKIII with a 582.

  

 AzDave

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

_________________
AzDave

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

AZDave,

  

 Doubt their is much difference in, or too much concern about Vx and Vy  where 50 to 55 can be an inch of stick or a slight gust, and I firmly believe  the one to be concerned about in any of these is VNE. Anybody know what it is on  the Mark III?

  

 When I can get the problems half straightened out with the Mark III and can  fly, I am  getting 500 fpm  and sometimes 700 fpm on takeoff when  density altitude drops below 6K here in southern NM. It's beginning to drop with  change in weather. Now if I just ordered the right parts ...

  

  

 jsf

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

According to the paperwork that came from Phoenixville the VNE of the Mark III is 100MPH.  

   

Mike  

Oak Grove Missouri  

Mark III Classic (one of the last of Old Kolb) - 0hrs  

Suzuki G13B 1.3L - 0hrs  

Started with Big Lar still behind...   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of john s. flannery

 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:27 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Sport Pilot  

  

     

AZDave,  

    

   

    

Doubt their is much difference in, or too much concern about Vx and Vy where 50 to 55 can be an inch of stick or a slight gust, and I firmly believe the one to be concerned about in any of these is VNE. Anybody know what it is on the Mark III?  

    

   

    

When I can get the problems half straightened out with the Mark III and can fly, I am  getting 500 fpm  and sometimes 700 fpm on takeoff when density altitude drops below 6K here in southern NM. It's beginning to drop with change in weather. Now if I just ordered the right parts ..  

    

   

    

   

    

jsf  

    

   

    

do not archive  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

Thanks, And, do you believe that, with a Kolb Mark III   of unknown age, use, and  provenance, covered with very thin but  clean fabric you can't define? And no built-in umbrella or falschirm?  But, it  has held together at 70, maybe plus  to date. Think my  old-tried-it-still-here side says " I shan't seek 100 mph."  Nor shall  I creep much past 70 indicated. Verily and foresooth as the boys say. 

  

 And next, the flaps extension speed and how many threads should be  concealed in the flap rod. An A&P messed up the flap levers rebuild and had  to back out to get flaps balanced with underside of wings at 0-degrees or lose 5  mph.

  

 jsf

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

[quote] ---

_________________
AzDave

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

<< What is the best glide speed for a Kolb MkIII?  What is Vx 

and Vy?  (I'm around 50 to 55 for both of them and can't see hardly any 

difference in climb rate.)  AzDave >>



Hey, Arizona Dave -



For my bone-stock Mark-III, I declared 55 for Vy (best rate = best

glide), and 50 for Vx (best angle), when the FAA asked me.  (As you

know, we are required to determine these speeds for our homebuilt

airplanes during our Phase-I flight testing period, and document them in

our aircraft log as part of FAA certification.)  



And like you, I'm seeing hardly any difference in climb rate between

these two speeds.  Good luck in finishing up your certification!



Dennis Kirby

912ul, "Magic Bike"

Cedar Crest, NM

(Now, if I could just get this silly 'spider' to work right ... 

do not archive

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

John, I fly a 582 powered Mk 3. Last time I went out at dawn to do timed climbs, I got a flat result from 50 to 65 mph of right at 500 fpm. It was 80 degrees at 6:30 a.m., ah summer in Kansas.

I use 60 as the top of the white arc (flap speeds) 90 as the top of the green arc 90 to 99 as the yellow arc (max smooth air cruise) and 100 even as red line (VNE).  

After I put the aileron balances on I took it out to 120 to check for flutter. I usually cruise at 80 to 85 IAS if I want to get somewhere and 70 to 75 when I'm just out cruising. Your results may differ as I have the prop (Warp Drive 66" 3 blade with straight blades) set to get 6500 max RPM. 



Rick



On 9/25/06, john s. flannery <jsflan(at)valornet.com (jsflan(at)valornet.com)> wrote:[quote]        Thanks, And, do you believe that, with a Kolb Mark III   of unknown age, use, and  provenance, covered with very thin but  clean fabric you can't define? And no built-in umbrella or falschirm?  But, it  has held together at 70, maybe plus  to date. Think my  old-tried-it-still-here side says " I shan't seek 100 mph."  Nor shall  I creep much past 70 indicated. Verily and foresooth as the boys say. 

  

 And next, the flaps extension speed and how many threads should be  concealed in the flap rod. An A&P messed up the flap levers rebuild and had  to back out to get flaps balanced with underside of wings at 0-degrees or lose 5  mph.

  

 jsf

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

[quote] ---

_________________
AzDave

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

I believe what the Designer of the aircraft states.  

   

Few of us know the true details of the spam can we rent either.  

   

Since exceeding Vne speed should never be done.. Hence the “ne” part… I wouldn’t seek 100 either…  

   

Mike  

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of john s. flannery

 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:07 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Sport Pilot  

  

     

Thanks, And, do you believe [b]that[/b], with a Kolb Mark III  of unknown age, use, and  provenance, covered with very thin but clean fabric you can't define? And no built-in umbrella or [i]falschirm[/i]? But, it  has held together at 70, maybe plus  to date. Think my old-tried-it-still-here side says " I shan't seek 100 mph."  Nor shall I creep much past 70 indicated. Verily and foresooth as the boys say.   

    

   

    

And next, the flaps extension speed and how many threads should be concealed in the flap rod. An A&P messed up the flap levers rebuild and had to back out to get flaps balanced with underside of wings at 0-degrees or lose 5 mph.  

    

   

    

jsf  

    

   

    

do not archive  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

Not sure I agree, Mike. 

  

 As I remember, all the "spam cans" I've rented and owned have  had gauges color-marked indicating never exceed speed, caution range ,  maximum structural cruising speed, normal operation range, maximum speed flaps  extended, flap operation range and that very important one touched on earlier,  maneuvering speed. They didn't get through annual without those markings, I  recall.  And the ubiquitous operating manuals published by the  manufacturers  even listed the variations in those speeds for floatplanes,  skiplanes and of course, landplanes.

  

 jsf

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

John

   

  My statement about the spam cans referred to your comment:

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    "Thanks, And, do you believe [b]that[/b], with a Kolb Mark III  of unknown age, use, and  provenance, covered with very thin but clean fabric you can't define? And no built-in umbrella or [i]falschirm[/i]?"



	
   

  The Spam cans I've rented and owned are covered with a very thin usually NOT clean AL sheet and you have no idea how the last pilot treated the aircraft or what "squawk's" he didn't report.  And they can pass years worth of annuals with the problems not being addressed... Therefore few of us know the true details of the spam can we rent  

   

  Your statement seemed to hi-lite the condition of the aircraft and not the original issue of Airspeed... Sorry if that wasn't clear.

   

  Also, what does a "flip book" have to do with Aircraft?? i.e. "falschirm"  Or is it a term for something else?? 

   

  Mike

   

   

  

"john s. flannery" <jsflan(at)valornet.com> wrote:

  [quote]    v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />    st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }              Not sure I agree, Mike. 

   

  As I remember, all the "spam cans" I've rented and owned have had gauges color-marked indicating never exceed speed, caution range , maximum structural cruising speed, normal operation range, maximum speed flaps extended, flap operation range and that very important one touched on earlier, maneuvering speed. They didn't get through annual without those markings, I recall.  And the ubiquitous operating manuals published by the manufacturers  even listed the variations in those speeds for floatplanes, skiplanes and of course, landplanes.

   

  jsf

   

   do not archive

  [quote]  ---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

e.bayliss(at)blueyonder.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

I have just got the specs as issued by the uk  importer when my aircraft was imported  (build completed in 1995) these  give the the following

 max flap speed   (vf)  speed  55mph

 never exceed (vne  )              95mph

 best rate of climb  speed      45mph

 recommended climb speed  52 mph

 recommended approach speed 52mph

  

  I have seen on my trawling through the net  that sometimes the published manufacturers figures do not match the figures we  have to keep to ( courtesy of the CAA) but hope this is some use to you  anyway  

  Eddie (uk)

 [quote]   ---

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

Hi John,

  

         Va  (maneuvering speed) is not specified on an ASI.  One of those one needs to  remember, like Vx and Vy.

  

 Ed in JXN

 MkII/503

 [quote]   ---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Va (maneuvering speed) is not specified on an ASI.  One of those

       one needs to remember, like Vx and Vy.



       Ed in JXN



Ed,



You are correct and am glad you made note of it here. The top of green 

arc and bottom of yellow arc is supposed to be Vno, which is structural 

cruising speed,  sometimes referred to as Normal Operating speed, hence 

the Vno. For what its worth, Va is a calculated value which is equal to 

the square root of the positive limit load (3.8 G in normal category 

aircraft) multiplied by the stall speed at current weight and flap 

configuration. Therefore it moves all over the map depending upon 

current stall speed which is dependent upon weight and flap extension.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Right, good point. 

  

 1956 Cessna 180 Operating manual:

  "Maneuvering Speed* . . . . 122 mph

  (The maximum speed at which you can use abrupt control travel without  exceeding the design load factor.) "

  

 And if you don't heed this,  you immediately become a test pilot,   usually with no Falschirm (Parachute).

  

 jsf

  

 Do Not Archive.

 [quote]   ---

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

FWIW on a 170 it's 124do not archive



On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:41 PM, john s. flannery wrote:

[quote]Right, good point.

 

1956 Cessna 180 Operating manual:

 "Maneuvering Speed* . . . . 122 mph

 (The maximum speed at which you can use abrupt control travel without exceeding the design load factor.) "

 

And if you don't heed this,  you immediately become a test pilot,  usually with no Falschirm (Parachute).

 

jsf

 

Do Not Archive.

[quote]---

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Sport Pilot

Hi Dave,

             The place to find out your "V" speeds , is your own plane...



The only V-speed that does your plane any good is the Vne



 All the other speeds have to be found with your own plane , you can get a "Ballpark" idea from other peoples V-speeds , but your planes weight is different from theirs....



 The "formula" for finding "all" of your " V-speeds "  ( eccept Vne ) is found in the



 Amateur-built aircraft and ultralight Flight testing handbook - 



AC NO: 90-89A



  If you look at Chapter 5  " Expanding The Envelope "



 it explains how to find "YOUR" V-speeds....



 Just like finding your STALL speed , you got a Ballpark idea from other planes , but you needed to find out where YOUR plane stalled....



  Some of these other numbers work off of your stall speed....



( something like 1.3 times the stall speed to get Vx ??? )



 Hope this helps...



                           Gotta Fly...

                                           Mike & "Jaz" in MN

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Sport Pilot

Hi Dave,

             The place to find out your "V" speeds , is your own plane...



The only V-speed that does your plane any good is the Vne



 All the other speeds have to be found with your own plane , you can get a "Ballpark" idea from other peoples V-speeds , but your planes weight is different from theirs....



 The "formula" for finding "all" of your " V-speeds "  ( eccept Vne ) is found in the



 Amateur-built aircraft and ultralight Flight testing handbook - 



AC NO: 90-89A



  If you look at Chapter 5  " Expanding The Envelope "



 it explains how to find "YOUR" V-speeds....



 Just like finding your STALL speed , you got a Ballpark idea from other planes , but you needed to find out where YOUR plane stalled....



  Some of these other numbers work off of your stall speed....



( something like 1.3 times the stall speed to get Vx ??? )



 Hope this helps...



                           Gotta Fly...

                                           Mike & "Jaz" in MN

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