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180 turn back to runway (first flight)

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jason(at)trek-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Hello all,  

  

 Many of you have  commented about my 180 back to the runway after an engine out on the first  flight.  So as not to encourage this activity at the wrong time, let me  expound on the story.  I had 5000 of runway and no wind. I lifted of  in the first 500' of runway.   At the departure end of the runway, I  had 500 or more feet of altitude.  When the engine quit, I was able to drop  the nose at will and build the airspeed up to to a good flying speed.  To  be honest, I don't know what that speed was, I was too busy flying the airplane  (and obviously had the runway made) to look but my guess was it was about  65.  I landed in the first 1/3 of the departure end of the runway, so by my  (thumbnail) calculations it would have been a lot more exciting if I had  been flying out of runway that was 3000' or less.  This runway was picked  by design, many of the local ultralighters told me it was too busy so it was not  a good runway to test fly out of.  At this point I am glad I listened to  myself and selected a runway that is not only 5000' long but has no obstructions  on either end.  The short story is that on the first flight, have a plan  and make sure your surroundings allow for a huge margin of error.  Either  that or be much much wiser than I am and be 100% sure that everything and every  system on your airplane will perform to 100%, 100% of the time (even though it  has never flown before) .

  

  

 Jason

 MKIIIC BMW  R100

 Portland  OR

   [quote][b]

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Jason, In response, and I may be corrected, but here goes.



We will return to the ways that are embedid within us and how we are trained. Your on the ground, you are safe, the plane is safe, you are a better pilot for your hands on experience. 



Now in retrospect, looking back as only the individual doing the doing could do; Would you change anything of what you did? If so, what? How? At what point would that decision have to be decided upon. 



I can speak for many, if not most and especially me in saying that we will ALL experience a test of our knowledge. As Possum best put it (but not a quote) "thats what makes this an interesting sport..the danger." Sorry Possum if I mis-percieved or mis-represented your actual intent.



I'm sure with 12 years of building under your belt, you were every bit as concerned about a safe uneventful landing as you were about your 12 year investment. I am glad you did what you did when you did it, Your proof as I am from my mistake. Ready to fly again.



Made in Ohio,  more humble each day, Ralph

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Jason

  

 Congratulations. Also thanks for sharing all that  information. It is now clear why you did the 180. At 500 ft AGL you had plenty  of altitude to safely do the 180 with even some margin for error.

  

 As a Rotax alternative proponent I'm very  interested in your BMW. When you get time please explore your engine  capabilities and share them with us. Of particular interest are cost, custom  work that had to be performed to mount the engine, weight and noise/vibration.  Height of thrust line above boom tube. High or low mount gear box and reduction  ratio. Also send photos. As for performance we would like to know climb  rate, cruise speeds with percent power and RPM, fuel burn at  cruise.

  

 I know I'm asking allot and don't expect everything  right away. Allot of this is from what people have asked me. Engine choices are  very important and can be very costly (Rotax 912). Reliability is also a major  concern, if you are traveling over inhospitable country it may be the most  important thing and if so most people would be wise to choose the Rotax 912 "for  now". As time goes bye we will find out how reliable the BMW is on a  airplane.

  

 Anyone out there that has other engines please  share your experience. Now that  the a (Rotax 912) costs more than the  airplane it is a significant portion of airplane ownership. Most of us can  afford to own a rotax 912 series on a airplane but may choose not to even own a  airplane because they need or want to spend the hard earned dollars elsewhere. A  lower cost engine might open up aviation for a lot more people.

  

 Thanks again and congratulations

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

 [quote]   ---

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

In a message dated 9/26/2006 1:47:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  flht99reh(at)columbus.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  As    Possum best put it (but not a quote) "thats what makes this an interesting    sport..the danger." 	


 

 Simply put...the expression is "to paraphrase" when you're not  quoting verbatim.

  

 No offense.

  

 Wild Bill...the killer of two Trikes in one day.

  [quote][b]

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

I attended an AOPA Air Safety Mtg here in Tucson last night and it was all about Emergency Procedures.  The guy did a whole segment on 180 turn backs and recommended everyone practice it at high altitude so you know the altitude loss when you make the turn and have that altitude plus some margin in mind as you climb out.  If the engine quits before that altitude, land straight ahead or close to it.  It the engine quits above that alitude, turn back.   He did a simulator turn back test at different bank angles, showing a 60-70 degree turn will make it back, a 45 degree turn just made it with no margin and anything less didn't make it.  He noted a 4 sec "oh shucks" decision delay for taking action after the engine stops that was included in the simulator run.  



In the early part of the meeting, the guy asked if there were any SP certificate holders in the room (standing room only) and not one person raised their hand.  He said he travels coast to coast doing these safety mtgs and has yet to have one person raise their hand.... that surprised me.  Maybe there aren't many with actual certificates yet, but I thought there would have been many at this point.  Either that or SP folks don't get the word about AOPA air safety mtgs.  They are free and are very good... I highly recommend them.  You can find out about them on AOPA's air safety foundation website at www.asf.org and you don't need to be an AOPA member to go there.



For what it's worth.

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Jim,



Maybe they, like me, didn't know what an SP was... Student Pilot? I'm old 

and slow and don't know all the acronyms. Hell, I'm still using  "Able, 

Baker, Charley, Delta..."



jsf



do not archive

---

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Well "wild Bill", you said, and I quote:



"Simply put...the expression is "to paraphrase" when you're not quoting verbatim. 



No offense. 



Wild Bill...the killer of two Trikes in one day. "



I ain't much on any of them para's. This is a Kolb website we have real wings and a body on our aircraft. And I wasn't quoting "verbatim", I was loosly quoting Possum. I think he would be offended if he were confused with someone named verbatim.



Now normally a man called "Wild Bill" wouldn't scare me and I'd just as soon help ya put that Para thingy right back on y'r trike. But then I got to thinking and when I read "killer of two trikes in one day." I determined that perhaps you are not a fully equiped individual that one would care to mess with. I mean, two...!  In one day! I delt with the hardest core bikers out there and I have to say, not a one has ever taken credit for going down twice in one day. You scare me!



No offense taken, Mr. Wild Bill!



Do not  archive!



Quivering in my boots here in Ohio...no name, or address!

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jim,



 Maybe they, like me, didn't know what an SP was... Student Pilot? I'm old 

 and slow and don't know all the acronyms. Hell, I'm still using  "Able, 

 Baker, Charley, Delta..."



 jsf


	


Delta, Delta, you mean it isn't "Dog" anymore?????



AzDave



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_________________
AzDave

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

In 2006 parlance I think it's "DUDE"

do not archive



On Sep 27, 2006, at 5:19 PM, Dave & Eve Pelletier wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pelletier(at)cableone.net>



> Jim,

>

> Maybe they, like me, didn't know what an SP was... Student Pilot?  

> I'm old and slow and don't know all the acronyms. Hell, I'm still  

> using  "Able, Baker, Charley, Delta..."

>

> jsf



 Delta, Delta, you mean it isn't "Dog" anymore?????



 AzDave



 Do Not Archive

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Dogged if I remember...

jsf



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---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

...He did a simulator turn back test at different bank angles, showing 

a 60-70 degree turn will make it back, a 45 degree turn just made it 

with no margin and anything less didn't make it.  He noted a 4 sec "oh 

shucks" decision delay for taking action after the engine stops that 

was included in the simulator run.....



  --------

       Jim Hefner

       Tucson, AZ



Jim,



I am glad you related this. It flies in the face of most instructors' 

instructions and FAA's sacred scriptures, but is true if done 

correctly. I suspect that their fear of pilots not keeping the airspeed 

up to prevent a high load factor stall and spin is what is behind  this 

"official rule" to never turn back, and they are correct if you try to 

maintain altitude at near stall speed while banking steeply. But trying 

to do that is insane and lethal, so they simplify it so the poor pilots 

don't have to think or understand and their lawyers are happy.



One must try this at safe altitude to believe it but it is much quicker 

with less altitude loss to turn quickly at 45 degrees and high airspeed 

to prevent stalling than to make a slow wide low bank turn. It may be 

still quicker at 60 degrees but I'm not comfortable at that steep an 

angle, so I stick to 45 degrees or so and maintain airspeed about 50% 

above stall speed. In a high thrust line aircraft it is imperative to 

get the nose down immediately after sudden power loss due to the nose 

up pitching moment that results from sudden loss of thrust and keep 

speed up as you bank steeply. I do this test several times at safe 

altitude every time I fly a new-to-me airplane so I'll know my min. 

altitude for a turn back on departure if power fails. I double the 

altitude loss to compensate for the time delay from the mental shock of 

engine loss, and before getting to this altitude AGL my mind is 

prepared only for a straight ahead landing. This decision AGL height 

should already be made before take-off roll is begun.



Thanks again, Jim. So glad to hear some rational thought in the safety 

seminars. I attend them in my area regularly but have not heard this 

"new" turn back speech.



Thom in Buffalo

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Sorry for the SP confusion... Sport Pilot is what I meant.  He did ask about Student Pilots and quite a few of us raised our hands and then he clarified that he didn't say holders of Student Pilot Certificates and therefore everyone in the room should have held up their hands...   



Thom, I was surprised but happy to see that AOPA took a positive stand on this topic as well.  I think the difference in the simulator run for a Kolb vs most GA planes, meaning short take off roll and high climb rate, would show that a 45 degree bank would be plenty to make it back safely.  The point was that a steep turn takes much less time and even though the altitude loss is more, you complete the turn at a higher altitude and have more time for the glide back.  I know in the Firefly, taking off on a 4200' asphalt runway is very high by the end of the runway so it would be pretty easy to turn back at that point or beyond a good ways.  One of my friends makes a habit of climbing off to the right and paralleling the runway after liftoff so a turn back would be 180 degrees, not more, if needed.  Many airports won't allow this due to congestion, obstructions, noise abatement, etc, but if you are flying from wide open spaces this is also a good strategy.

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

Just thought I'd mention another factor - after the 180 turn is completed.



I fly regional RPT in a twin turbo prop and often, to fit in with noise abatement, ATC flow etc we land on a runway with a tailwind up to 10 knots (greater than 10 knots they change the runway). In addition, whilst it may be at or below 10 knots tailwind on the ground, even 100 feet above the runway the wind can be stronger, so more tailwind !



The effect of a gust is very noticeable as it is now performance reducing, ie your indicated airspeed will drop with a gust of wind from the rear. So your lift drops proportionaly and without recovery action you sure sink quick ! But if you've turned back due to an engine failure your 'recovery' options would be limited to whatever performance margin / energy you have left over the stall speed in your current configeration. 



I hate downwind landings ! They just don't feel right, and I'm talking about final approach speeds of around 100 to 120 knots so a 10 knot gust is a relatively small proportion that you can handle, though sometimes the landing is more an 'arrival', if you know what I mean 

In a kolb with much less 'energy' reserves it could be a quite different matter. Nb. I'm talking theoreticaly here as I have not yet got any experience in anything as light as the Kolb. But, nevertheless, a turn back decision, a decision which has to me made fairly quickly, might not be the best decision even given the positive repies of earlier posts.



Safe flying all.     David.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

... Just thought I'd mention another factor - after the 180 turn is 

completed.  David...



David,

Good additional information on the tailwind factor. To quantify a bit 

the rule of thumb for take-off distance adjustment for headwinds and 

tailwinds is total take-off distance decreases by about 7% for each 10 

knots of headwind and increases by 5% for each 2 knots of tailwind. So 

the tail wind has a bigger impact than headwind. I'm not sure if the 

effect is the same on landing distance but suspect they are in the same 

ball park.



I personally don't do tail wind landings or take-offs even with plenty 

of runway unless it can't be avoided because it doesn't do the airplane 

landing gear and tires any favors by adding the wind to touch down 

ground speed.



Thom in Buffalo

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight)

I don't think the tailwind factor is much of a problem unless it's blowing pretty good... 10-15 mph.  The Firefly landing stall speed is so low that adding another 10-15 to that isn't a big problem for the plane.  I use one notch less flaperon and carry a little power to ensure ASI doesn't drop below 40 during the flare.  With the wind the sink rate is increased.  I don't make a habit of doing downwind landings but would not hesitate to do one if it gets quiet with enough altitude to make it back.

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Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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