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dcw(at)dddirectories.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

I am considering having a custom graphics designed and installed on my

Kitfox. The industry calls this a body wrap. Many vehicles can be seen with

complete body wraps. It doesn't hurt the paint on an automobile and can be

replaced as needed or removed. Can anyone think of a reason I should not do

this or anyway this could possibly damage my plane or affect it's

performance.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: David C. Watterson [dcw(at)dddirectories.com]

 Can anyone think of a reason I should not do

 this or anyway this could possibly damage my plane or affect it's

 performance.


	


I can't think of any, David. We already use a few decalcs like the callsign, etc. I even have a tiny Norwegian flag on my tail. They are, usually, very easy to remove with a heat gun. But, please, send us a photo when it is finished. We like to see nice and creative body work.



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

flier(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Flutter.  No way I would do it on the wings or tail without testing.



--

ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

David,



I can't claim to have any experience with this on airplanes, (I will say I am 

a car nut and there is some transfer of technology from cars to planes) but 

my advice is to rephrase the question: Rather than thinking of any reason not 

to do it, think about if there is any real compelling reason to do it. I know 

we are experimental types, but this is a pretty big experiment.



My concerns would start with the potential for the stuff delaminating, then 

getting tangled up in something important, which is just about anything on an 

airplane (static port, lift struts, tailfeathers, etc) I hate to think about 

the stuff bridging the horizontal stabilizer and stabilizer strut. One of the 

big differences between cars and airplanes is that very few things attached 

to the skin of a car affect the ability to operate - quite different with an 

airplane.



There might be a difference between a few sticker decals for an N number and a 

really big sheet of material.



If I were doing extensive graphics, I would personally choose to use paints to 

get the job done.



Just a thought - As I said, I don't really know much about this material, but 

I would really, really want to know I could avoid killing myself before 

trying something like this.



Sincerely,



Dave S

St Paul, MN

M-7 Trigear

Do Not Archive

On Thursday 28 September 2006 8:12 am, David C. Watterson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dcw(at)dddirectories.com>



 I am considering having a custom graphics designed and installed on my

 Kitfox. The industry calls this a body wrap. M

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Hi, David.



I have a stripe down the fuselage side of my IV done with vinyl.  I know 

there are several grades, but suspect what you are looking at is of the 

better type.



Regarding delamination.  I doubt it would be a problem as far as a 

catastrophic failure is concerned.  What you might find is a subtle peeling 

back at the leading edge.  I just checked mine and there is no evidence of 

any separation and it has been on the airplane for eight years and 800 hours 

and the leading edge of the tape is unprotected, i.e. begins on the flat 

surface of the door.



Incidentally, with my video camera set-up I have used 3M vinyl tape quite a 

bit to hold on some fairings between the camera and the fuselage on the lift 

strut and have had no peeling at the leading edge so far.  I do replace it 

from time to time, though.



As a side note, when California tightened up its VOC requirements, United 

Airlines at their San Francisco maintainance facility expermented with what 

they called decals as a substitute for the paint after their paint facility 

was shut down.  The "decals" were actually laser cut vinyl adhesive sheets. 

I don't know the result of that experiment, but they didn't seem to be 

initially concerned at close to 600 mph.  My guess is that rather than 

concern over control problems, they would be concerned about cosmetics and 

cost.  In other words, if they came off - serious negative image issues and 

replacing them frequently = money wasted.



Lowell

---

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

David,

  I talked to a guy that does the body wraping and specifically asked him if he thought it would work (stay put) on a fabric airplane. He had never done it, but his indications were iffy. My little voice told me it may not be a good idea. Dave S. gave some good things to consider.

  Dan B.

  314DW / building

   

   

   

  Dave and Diane <ddsyverson(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane 



David,



I can't claim to have any experience with this on airplanes, (I will say I am 

a car nut and there is some transfer of technology from cars to planes) but 

my advice is to rephrase the question: Rather than thinking of any reason not 

to do it, think about if there is any real  compelling reason to do it. I know 

we are experimental types, but this is a pretty big experiment.



My concerns would start with the potential for the stuff delaminating, then 

getting tangled up in something important, which is just about anything on an 

airplane (static port, lift struts, tailfeathers, etc) I hate to think about 

the stuff bridging the horizontal stabilizer and stabilizer strut. One of the 

big differences between cars and airplanes is that very few things attached 

to the skin of a car affect the ability to operate - quite different with an 

airplane.



There might be a difference between a few sticker decals for an N number and a 

really big sheet of material.



If I were doing extensive graphics, I would personally choose to use paints to 

get the job done.



Just a thought - As I said, I don't really know much about this material, but 

I would really, really want to know I could avoid killing myself [quote][b]

jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

A friend of mine has it on the fuselage of his Model IV with about 600 hours.  No problems.



Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" 



Hi, David.



I have a stripe down the fuselage side of my IV done with vinyl. I know 

there are several grades, but suspect what you are looking at is of the 

better type.



Regarding delamination. I doubt it would be a problem as far as a 

catastrophic failure is concerned. What you might find is a subtle peeling 

back at the leading edge. I just checked mine and there is no evidence of 

any separation and it has been on the airplane for eight years and 800 hours 

and the leading edge of the tape is unprotected, i.e. begins on the flat 

surface of the door.



Incidentally, with my video camera  set-up I have used 3M vinyl tape quite a 

bit to hold on some fairings between the camera and the fuselage on the lift 

strut and have had no peeling at the leading edge so far. I do replace it 

from time to time, though.



As a side note, when California tightened up its VOC requirements, United 

Airlines at their San Francisco maintainance facility expermented with what 

they called decals as a substitute for the paint after their paint facility 

was shut down. The "decals" were actually laser cut vinyl adhesive sheets. 

I don't know the result of that experiment, but they didn't seem to be 

initially concerned at close to 600 mph. My guess is that rather than 

concern over control problems, they would be concerned about cosmetics and 

cost. In other words, if they came off - serious negative image issues and 

replacing them frequently = money wasted.



Lowell

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

At 05:22 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I talked to a guy that does the body wraping and specifically asked him if 

he thought it would work (stay put) on a fabric airplane. He had never 

done it, but his indications were iffy. My little voice told me it may not 

be a good idea. Dave S. gave some good things to consider.

Dan B.


	


My EAA Flight Advisor just finished an RV-7 with fairly extensive graphics 

applied via vinyl adhesives. I doubt you'll have any problem with it on a 

Kitfox, but you'll want to do the usual testing before-hand with pieces in 

various places that might be a problem. Watch the weight, be careful of 

heat, and be careful of flutter. (Since our only balanced surfaces are the 

ailerons you'll want to re-balance after installation. All other control 

surfaces should be fine.)



I certainly hope you have something outrageous in mind. I'm looking forward 

to it.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

brodg(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Yep, and no 'flutter' issues !    ;o)

  

 [quote]   ---

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Hey Folks,



Installing some cut vinyl graphics is a lot different 

from the overall body wraps used on vehicles which 

typically covers most everything.



Flutter is insidious, can occur at any speed, and can 

occur on any surface including the fuselage.  I saw a 

comment about the flaperons being the only balanced 

surface.  The wings, the horiz & vert stab as well as 

rudder & elevator are all surfaces that can 

experience flutter.  



If you can peel a body wrap off a vehicle without 

damaging paint then the graphics can peel off an 

airfoil surface and create flutter.  Lifting of 

fabric off plywood wings killed a very experienced 

homebuilder...



There's no problem using cut vinyl on most surfaces 

but again I'd be very careful trying to cover the 

entire aircraft with a wrap.



Regards,



Ted



--- Original Message ---

From: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg(at)texas.net>

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Graphics body wrap!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Yep, and no 'flutter' issues !   ;o)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

I think sticks ons are pretty safe.



The Adhesives nowadays are prolly stronger  that the poly fobre glues in 

some cases.

Dave

---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Hey Gang,

I agree with Dave.  The glues used on the tape are quite good.



 I have a large vinyl cut graphic of a girl in a bikini on an island

 (really!) on the tail of my Lake amphibian now for 10 + years with no signs

 of peeling.  And the prop blast is only 3 or 4 feet from it (being that it

 is a pusher), as well as the huge amount of water spray it endures.  Also, 

a

 friend of mine has an Avid Flyer that has vinyl graphics (large ones) on 

the

 fuselage, tail, and wings.  It has been probably 5 years and 300 hours of

 flying conditions (winter, summer, spring, and fall - skis, wheels, floats)

 with no problem.  Another friend has done three (going on four now) Just

 aircraft co. Highlanders, each of them having large graphics on the 

fuselage

 and the floats.  No problem there either, and we flew two of them from

 Wisconsin to Florida and back, along with a couple 1,000 mile trips thrown

 in.  I also have a set of fibreglass floats with graphics on them that are

 at least 5 yrs of heavy water use, and left outside.  No problems with that

 either.  Granted, fibreglass and metal are different than fabric.  But from

 what I can tell the fabric holds the stripes just as well.



 I personally think if you make sure a professional tape stripe installer

 does the work it will stay on without issue.



 Here's a pic of what the graphic on the tail looks like today (with a bonus

 picture for all of you guys that don't understand why I like seaplanes so

 much.....)   <GRIN>



 Paul Seehafer

 ---

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jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

I am dumping the wheels and making mine a sea plane!!

   

  Jimmie



Paul Seehafer <av8rps(at)tznet.com> wrote:

  [quote]Hey Gang,

I agree with Dave. The glues used on the tape are quite good.



I have a large vinyl cut graphic of a girl in a bikini on an island

(really!) on the tail of my Lake amphibian now for 10 + years with no signs

of peeling. And the prop blast is only 3 or 4 feet from it (being that it

is a pusher), as well as the huge amount of water spray it endures. Also, 

a

friend of mine has an Avid Flyer that has vinyl graphics (large ones) on 

the

fuselage, tail, and wings. It has been probably 5 years and 300 hours of

flying conditions (winter, summer, spring, and fall - skis, wheels, floats)

with no problem. Another friend has done three (going on four now)  Just

aircraft co. Highlanders, each of them having large graphics on the 

fuselage

and the floats. No problem there either, and we flew two of them from

Wisconsin to Florida and back, along with a couple 1,000 mile trips thrown

in. I also have a set of fibreglass floats with graphics on them that are

at least 5 yrs of heavy water use, and left outside. No problems with that

either. Granted, fibreglass and metal are different than fabric. But from

what I can tell the fabric holds the stripes just as well.



I personally think if you make sure a professional tape stripe installer

does the work it will stay on without issue.



Here's a pic of what the graphic on the tail looks like today (with a bonus

picture for all of you guys that don't understand why I like seaplanes so

much.....) 



Paul Seehafer

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

At 11:43 AM 9/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Here is a photo of my sailboat taken three years ago.


	


I like Paul's decal a lot better. Michel, maybe you could apply Santa's 

helper...

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

At 10:59 AM 9/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Here's a pic of what the graphic on the tail looks like today (with a bonus

picture for all of you guys that don't understand why I like seaplanes so

much.....)   <GRIN>


	


They're your daughters, right? <GD&R>

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Weight... for a full body wrap



I have a  small plastic graphic installed on the tail of my plane for the past two  years... No cracks,rips or tears.  Installing a full body wrap on a cloth  plane could be fun though.  The chemicals used to remove it may not be good  to the dope system you are using let alone the cloth.  Try a small piece of  the wrap material on a sample of cloth doped to a small frame to see how it  applies and removes.  While applying the graphic any small bubbles can be  taken care of with the judicious use of a small diameter sewing  needle.  

 Just for the Halibut, I'm including a small pic  of my graphic and one of it on the plane.

  

 BTW I'm so far down in the woods in Newfoundland  I have to come out to hunt.  I found a company that does auto graphics  about an hour away.  Companies that do street banners or shop graphics  should also be able to help you.

 

Noel



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Hey Paul!



How come you didn't say your Lake came with hot running women???  Now the

important question does your 'Fox get the same attention???



Now I'm convinced I'm doing something wrong!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Hi Noel,



Didn't you know a good looking, exotic looking seaplane will attract good 

looking, exotic looking women? <smirk>



Does my Kitfox get the same amount of attention?  Hmmmmmmm........ 

Honestly, no.  But women in general sure do think it is "cute".  I'm not so 

sure I like that whole cute thing, but anything is better than nothing.



Here's a picture of my "cute" Model IV at our annual Eagle River Seaplane 

Fly In during the poker run (we fly 6-8 lakes) we had 3 weeks ago. 

Incidently, my little Kitfox IV had no trouble whatsoever keeping up with 

Husky Amphibs in the group.  The Kitfox makes for one nice seaplane!



Oh yeah, that is my buddies Highlander in the foreground.  If anyone is 

interested that airplane is up for sale.  (68K on floats, and 58K on 

wheels).  It was a Sun-N-Fun Grand Champion, plus Oshkosh Seaplane award 

winner.  Very nice airplane.



Paul



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Paul!



 How come you didn't say your Lake came with hot running women???  Now the

 important question does your 'Fox get the same attention???



 Now I'm convinced I'm doing something wrong!



 Noel

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

At 07:21 PM 9/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just for the Halibut, I'm including a small pic of my graphic and one of 

it on the plane.




	


Noel,

         You're going to have to explain that one. "Beothuck"?

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: Graphics body wrap!

Didn't the older SS demo aircraft with the "wild paint

jobs" actually use wraps?



I wrapped my lift strut fairings this way rather than

painting, but I wrapped completely around with no

edges to the front, except for some patches at the

joints, etc.  Works well past 150 mph.  Don't ask how

I know that though.  



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



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