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dual sticks in 601XL
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waj(at)quik.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Hello group ,I have a question . Is it worth the  effort to add dual control sticks to this design .What are your thoughts pro  & con on this issue . Thanks Wade Jones

   [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I wasn't worth the effort to me. It didn't  take any time at all to get used to the center Y stick even though I had always flown aircraft with a control yoke before. The center stick also makes it easier to get in and out of the plane. I find it no trouble to change hands on the center stick to adjust radios and such. The dual sticks will be heavier and more complicated also.



On Sep 30, 2006, at 4:00 PM, Wade Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello group ,I have a question . Is it worth the effort to add dual control sticks to this design .What are your thoughts pro & con on this issue . Thanks Wade Jones

 	  Quote: 	
		  	
	




 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I am using the dual stick option. I found it  awkward in the demo plane to change hands to check my ability to reach across  the panel with the inboard side hand. I'm sure it would not be a deal breaker  either way. With dual sticks the center console area is freed up for the  placement of fuel selector valve, switches, whatever.

  

 Ed Moody II

 [quote]   ---

Sigmo(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I went with the dual sticks because I am used to that configuration and  like to fly with it.

 I have flown both configurations and prefer the stick although there are  some disadvantages.

  

 Some of the drawbacks to the dual sticks on this aircraft are:

 The loss of foot space in front of the pilot and passenger.

 It is harder to enter and exit the aircraft.

 The wiring and placement of some items require much more thought.

 The seats must be configured for the sticks.

 The stick interferes with the passenger seating comfort.

 It is harder to carry cargo in the passenger seat without interfering with  the stick.

  

 Some of the advantages of the dual stick are:

 The console area can be configured for instruments and other items.

 The right hand is free to set radios and other instruments. The right hand  is free to write.

 The aircraft can be flown with the left hand when you wish.

 The stick can be configured with switches that can be operated with either  hand.

 I personally find it easier to fly with the stick than the center  control.

 The legs can also be used when necessary.

  

 My two cents worth.....

 Mike Sigman

 N7092N 601XL

  [quote][b]

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Wade, I actually held off starting the Zodiac until they offered dual sticks.  I am not a mancho "left hand on throttle, right hand on stick" type.  I learned in your everyday spam can, with my right hand on the throttle and left on the yoke.  Beyond that, my other problem with the center stick is that I am right handed.  I could not envision grabbing the stick with my left hand in order to write something down (with my right hand) and I can't write with my left hand.

 

 That's my 2 cent's worth,  Jay in Dallas, working on XL canopy  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Well, I'm doing it for a few reasons:

  

 - it mimics the planes I have trained in (172, Katana,  Evector, 601XL): left hand on the stick, right on center  throttle.

 - all the 601xls that I have seen that have been purchased  for flight instruction have dual sticks. So if you need time in an XL before  flying yours you will probably need to use dual sticks

 - I am right-handed and wanted that hand free for things  that require manual dexterity: writing, fiddling with the GPS, radio,  transponder, microwave over, etc.

  

 Certainly the center Y stick is a cleaner design. Others  will say that it is not a big deal to grab the Y stick with your left hand to  temporarily free your right for other tasks.

  

 --  Craig

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

One way to address some  of these problems is to make the upper portion of the passenger-side stick  removable.

  

 -- Craig



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Sigmo(at)aol.com

Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:11  PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Zenith-List:  dual sticks in 601XL

 

 I went with the dual sticks because I am used to that configuration and  like to fly with it.

 I have flown both configurations and prefer the stick although there are  some disadvantages.

  

 Some of the drawbacks to the dual sticks on this aircraft are:

 The loss of foot space in front of the pilot and passenger.

 It is harder to enter and exit the aircraft.

 The wiring and placement of some items require much more thought.

 The seats must be configured for the sticks.

 The stick interferes with the passenger seating comfort.

 It is harder to carry cargo in the passenger seat without interfering with  the stick.

  

 Some of the advantages of the dual stick are:

 The console area can be configured for instruments and other items.

 The right hand is free to set radios and other instruments. The right hand  is free to write.

 The aircraft can be flown with the left hand when you wish.

 The stick can be configured with switches that can be operated with either  hand.

 I personally find it easier to fly with the stick than the center  control.

 The legs can also be used when necessary.

  

 My two cents worth.....

 Mike Sigman

 N7092N 601XL

[quote]

[b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I was surprised to hear so many listers say they didn't like the center stick because they couldn't write left handed.  I haven't flown my XL yet, but it seems to me there are two obvious answers to this particular problem.  First, you could configure the plane to fly from the right seat.  OK, I realize this is sacrilege, but it would allow the left hand on stick, right hand on throttle.



 The more obvious answer is that when the plane is properly trimmed up you should be able to let go of the controls long enough to adjust the radios or write something down.  Is there some reason this doesn't work?



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 At 01:00 PM 9/30/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello group ,I have a question . Is it worth the effort to add dual control sticks to this design .What are your thoughts pro & con on this issue . Thanks Wade Jones

 	
 

 ---------------------------------------------

 Paul Mulwitz

 32013 NE Dial Road

 Camas, WA 98607

 ---------------------------------------------

     [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: dual sticks in 601XL

All the opinions I've read are good and worthy ones.  In my case, as a CFI I'm used to switching hands and going between wheels and sticks and having to stretch across the cockpit to reach things.   For most of my career I owned a Cessna and an Aeronca Champ  (still have the Champ.)  



I chose to go with the center stick for 1.) Simplicity  2.) Comfort (nice armrest leading up to the stick instead of curling your hand in your lap.)

3.) Easier entry and exit.  To deal with the other issues I will simply design my panel for easy placement of controls (and duplicate some on the right) and install a single axis autopilot to do the flying when I need my hands or am otherwise engaged.  Anyone who has flown single pilot IFR and tried to copy clearances, twist radios and the like while in IMC knows the value of an AP.   If you don't want an AP, remember the "poor man's auto pilot"  (rudder pedals) which can be used to keep the wings level on an otherwise properly trimmed AC.



In the end, there is no best choice..... just go with what works for you.



Tim Juhl



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Paul there is no reason whatsoever, Chris Heintz designed the center stick and for nearly 22 years it has been nothing short of a great system. It is truly the best way to fly the 601 of any series. However, many who have never flown with the system wanted something more conventional as dual leg smackers or if you have wet shoes then they are called ball breakers. If you’re panel is laid out properly then in the first and last 1000ft everything you need can be accessed by your left hand. If you need to write down information then I sure hope you got it before you entered the circuit like you’re supposed to a properly trimmed Zodiac can fly for large amounts of time hands off. It is funny anyone who has built there second Zodiac still retains the “Y” stick and any seasoned 601 owner can easily modify the system to a dual stick but never seem to. All arguments over changing from a “Y” stick configuration are simply those who are afraid to get used to something different. But it is a personal choice, and to each there own The 601’s in Canada owned by Flypass were used for a great many years as flight training planes and retained the Y stick plus when many of those students built there own planes they didn’t install a dual stick configuration either. This is not an argument, I won’t have a dual stick setup in my plane, it is a personal decision and preference, amazingly enough I find the Y stick more social then a dual stick ( never could figure that one out but it is true to me anyways). Any debate of one being better then the other is totally false and wrote with personal preference.  Below is an early picture of my panel for the 601XL. Let the scotch bright pads fly !! Remember I did say personal preference !  

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C6E4C7.3D53E150[/img]    

Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario  

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started  

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com  

  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz

 Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 6:37 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: dual sticks in 601XL  

   

I was surprised to hear so many listers say they didn't like the center stick because they couldn't write left handed.  I haven't flown my XL yet, but it seems to me there are two obvious answers to this particular problem.  First, you could configure the plane to fly from the right seat.  OK, I realize this is sacrilege, but it would allow the left hand on stick, right hand on throttle.

 

 The more obvious answer is that when the plane is properly trimmed up you should be able to let go of the controls long enough to adjust the radios or write something down.  Is there some reason this doesn't work?

 

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive

 

 At 01:00 PM 9/30/2006, you wrote: <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  

Hello group ,I have a question . Is it worth the effort to add dual control sticks to this design .What are your thoughts pro & con on this issue . Thanks Wade Jones  

---------------------------------------------

 Paul Mulwitz

 32013 NE Dial Road

 Camas, WA 98607

 ---------------------------------------------   	  Quote: 	
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Which is what I plan to do also.

  

 Ed Moody II

 [quote]   ---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: dual sticks in 601XL

Yes you can trim it, but the stick is so sensitive that you really can't swap hands without some sort of jiggle. Also, the act of reaching across my body with my left hand to operate the radios will shift my body and the pressure on the stick. It's just a touchy affair.



If ATC calls you while your left hand is on the yoke, right hand on radio ... forget what you were doing because trying to push on the TX button with left hand is ridiculous. I lost track of how many times I pushed on the trim button instead and put the plane in a dive.



The center stick is just plain annoying, period. I've gotten used to it, but still don't like it.



 	  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: 	
		  The more obvious answer is that when the plane is properly trimmed up you should be able to let go of the controls long enough to adjust the radios or write something down.  Is there some reason this doesn't work?

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

And all this "switching hands" business assumes that you only need your

right hand in a non-emergency situation (trimmed, straight, level, etc).

Almost all the fuel selectors I have seen on XLs are on the center console.

So you stupidly run a tank dry in some critical situation - no problem! Just

reach across in front of the stick with your left hand to turn the selector.

Or just switch hands and reach around or over the center stick to the tank

selector. I know - use the same solution used in the throttle - dual fuel

selector valves. Hmm, no thanks. Having climbed in and out of 601s with dual

and center sticks I think I'll bolt on my dual sticks.



-- Craig

waj(at)quik.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I thank everyone who replied to my question on the  dual sticks .Lots of comments on both styles .I am not at the point where I have  to make up my mind anytime soon .At present I still have not decided ,lots of  pros & cons .I think that as far as building is concerned I would prefer to  keep it simple as in the plans .As far flying I would probably feel more at home  with the dual sticks . Thanks again for your support . Wade Jones

 [quote]   ---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

Is it true that the seats have to be modified for the dual sticks? It wa my 

impression that the dual sticks had been designed to fit the existing cabin 

space (pardon my ignorance but I have not reached that point yet).



If so, does the modification also involve the seat upholstery?



If it does, will the upholstery option package from Zenith be dual stick 

compatible or am I in a bind here?



Anyone been here and done that?



Ed Moody II

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I wondered the same thing. I sat in Bob Archibald's XL (Dragonfly Aviation)

and ran the stick to all four extremes, shooting a movie with my digital

camera. It will hit the seat if pulled way back. But after flying the plane

I saw how sensitive the controls were. If you pulled the stick back a

quarter of that distance you would (with enough power) loop the plane.



The whole movie is 7.6 megabytes. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will

e-mail it to you.



-- Craig

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Rmtnview(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I'd like a copy of that video please. Rog

 rmtnview(at)aol.com (rmtnview(at)aol.com)

  

 Do Not Archive

  

  

 In a message dated 10/1/2006 11:57:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    wondered the same thing. I sat in Bob Archibald's XL (Dragonfly    Aviation)

and ran the stick to all four extremes, shooting a movie with my    digital

camera. It will hit the seat if pulled way back. But after flying    the plane

I saw how sensitive the controls were. If you pulled the stick    back a

quarter of that distance you would (with enough power) loop the    plane.



The whole movie is 7.6 megabytes. If anyone wants it, let me    know and I will

e-mail it to you.



--  Craig

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

I'm sending the movie in  a second message. Hopefully it won't be rejected by your mail server as too  large. Let me know if you don't get it in 15-30 minutes.

  

 -- Craig



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Rmtnview(at)aol.com

Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:07  PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Zenith-List:  Re: dual sticks in 601XL

 

  I'd like a copy of that video please. Rog

 rmtnview(at)aol.com (rmtnview(at)aol.com)

  

 Do Not Archive

  

  

 In a message dated 10/1/2006 11:57:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I wondered the    same thing. I sat in Bob Archibald's XL (Dragonfly Aviation)

and ran the    stick to all four extremes, shooting a movie with my digital

camera. It    will hit the seat if pulled way back. But after flying the plane

I saw how    sensitive the controls were. If you pulled the stick back a

quarter of that    distance you would (with enough power) loop the plane.



The whole movie    is 7.6 megabytes. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will

e-mail it to    you.



-- Craig

	


 

  

[quote]

[b]

Sigmo(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

The stick movement in actual flight is very small but to get full movement  the seat cusion needs to be relieved the same as an RV or other similar dual  stick aircraft.

 

 Mike Sigman 

 N7092N

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: dual sticks in 601XL

If you look through AMD's  photo gallery you will see many pictures of dual-stick planes they have built  without cut-outs in the cushions.

  

 www.newplane.com/amd/amd/601_SLSA/photo_gallery.html

  

 --  Craig

  

   [quote][b]

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