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Best wiring techniques to use?

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rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use.



This is for a Europa XS/Rotax 914 and B+C SD20S/LR3C, start point for

schematic was Z13/8.



Battery is 10 feet behind motor, Flaming River mechanical battery cut off

switch 3 feet ahead of battery aft side of passenger headrest.

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id 2



1) I am looking to use #4  MIL-W-22759/16 Tefzel wire for battery and

ground. There will be approx a 3 foot run of unprotected wire to the

battery cut off switch. Is there any extra protection that would be

prudent to incorporate? Some sort of robust sleeve on 1 wire, or a fusible

link? Or just not worry about it (not run too close near anything that

conducts)? I have the heavy duty Rotax starter, supposedly draws less amps

than old style, old style starter draw was I think 60 amps, not sure what

momentary is.



2) I need to somehow get power and ground to 2 fuel pumps, wingtip

Strobe/Position LEDs and pitch servo. The headrest is approx 6 feet closer

to the battery (14 foot round trip) compared to the firewall mounted

ground and main bus. If I put a mini power and ground bus in or near the

headrest, would I be negating the concept of single point ground? Would

stealing power from the NO side of the battery cut off likely cause any

noise or other problems? Or just make extra runs from firewall?



3) Would it be advisable to series the battery cut off with the negative

or positive? Reason? I don't have any science to back this up, but I read

that when making model electric aeroplane battery packs, if you need to

make one lead longer than the other, make the negative longer than the

positive, it can help with black wire disease (what I have always done)??

Overall scheme, plenty more time will be spent with battery cutoff opened.



4) I will need to somehow break into the #4 battery wire not going to the

battery cut off switch. Instead of cutting the wire and putting on a lug

on each side, and screwing them back together along with an additional #10

wire ring, could I carefully strip, lets say an inch of insulation off the

#4, and strip 3" off the #10, then strip back the #10 to 1" except for 2

strands, then wrap the 2 strands over the 1" of #4 and 1" of #10 and

solder/heat shrink? I would use the adhesive lined heat shrink.



5) What is good practice to follow, the number of lugs I can stack on the

NO side of the battery cutoff switch stud?



6) I forget the exact diameter of the NO side of the battery cutoff switch

stud, lets say it is 5/16". If lets say I wanted to stack a #4 and a

#10,is it acceptable to stack a ring terminal that has a smaller footprint

on top of one with a larger footprint? Or in this instance because loss of

this connection can cause loss of main and e-bus, use the same size lug,

make a brass insert and crimp/solder in the smaller wire?



7) The Flaming River switch has copper threaded studs, came with a brass

nut and brass lock-washer. Would it be advisable to use a Phosphor bronze

star washer instead of the brass lock-washer?

Ron Parigoris

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

At 11:19 PM 9/24/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use.



This is for a Europa XS/Rotax 914 and B+C SD20S/LR3C, start point for

schematic was Z13/8.



Battery is 10 feet behind motor, Flaming River mechanical battery cut off

switch 3 feet ahead of battery aft side of passenger headrest.

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id 2



1) I am looking to use #4  MIL-W-22759/16 Tefzel wire for battery and

ground. There will be approx a 3 foot run of unprotected wire to the

battery cut off switch. Is there any extra protection that would be

prudent to incorporate?


	


    No



 	  Quote: 	
		  Some sort of robust sleeve on 1 wire, or a fusible

link? Or just not worry about it (not run too close near anything that

conducts)? I have the heavy duty Rotax starter, supposedly draws less amps

than old style, old style starter draw was I think 60 amps, not sure what

momentary is.


	


   It's a plastic airplane . . . don't worry about it.

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) I need to somehow get power and ground to 2 fuel pumps, wingtip

Strobe/Position LEDs and pitch servo. The headrest is approx 6 feet closer

to the battery (14 foot round trip) compared to the firewall mounted

ground and main bus. If I put a mini power and ground bus in or near the

headrest, would I be negating the concept of single point ground? Would

stealing power from the NO side of the battery cut off likely cause any

noise or other problems? Or just make extra runs from firewall?


	


   Minimize the numbers of busses. Run from the firewall.

 	  Quote: 	
		  3) Would it be advisable to series the battery cut off with the negative

or positive? Reason? I don't have any science to back this up, but I read

that when making model electric aeroplane battery packs, if you need to

make one lead longer than the other, make the negative longer than the

positive, it can help with black wire disease (what I have always done)??

Overall scheme, plenty more time will be spent with battery cutoff opened.


	


    Either way.

 	  Quote: 	
		  4) I will need to somehow break into the #4 battery wire not going to the

battery cut off switch. Instead of cutting the wire and putting on a lug

on each side, and screwing them back together along with an additional #10

wire ring, could I carefully strip, lets say an inch of insulation off the

#4, and strip 3" off the #10, then strip back the #10 to 1" except for 2

strands, then wrap the 2 strands over the 1" of #4 and 1" of #10 and

solder/heat shrink? I would use the adhesive lined heat shrink.


	


    That will cause some folks to roll their eyes back and

    mumble unkind things about you . . . but there's nothing

    wrong with the physics or failure modes and is probably

    a more reliable joint (low parts count, no threaded fasteners).

 	  Quote: 	
		  5) What is good practice to follow, the number of lugs I can stack on the

NO side of the battery cutoff switch stud?


	


    Depends on stud length. You need to see one full thread

    on the OFF-side of the nut when the joint is finished.

 	  Quote: 	
		  6) I forget the exact diameter of the NO side of the battery cutoff switch

stud, lets say it is 5/16". If lets say I wanted to stack a #4 and a

#10,is it acceptable to stack a ring terminal that has a smaller footprint

on top of one with a larger footprint? Or in this instance because loss of

this connection can cause loss of main and e-bus, use the same size lug,

make a brass insert and crimp/solder in the smaller wire?


	


    At the current levels you're dealing with, surface areas are

    not going to be an issue so much as joint make-up forces. Torque

    the nut down to about 1/2 the value recommended for steel of

    the same size/thread.

 	  Quote: 	
		  7) The Flaming River switch has copper threaded studs, came with a brass

nut and brass lock-washer. Would it be advisable to use a Phosphor bronze

star washer instead of the brass lock-washer?


	


    If the lockwasher is the typical automotive split-ring

    variety, pitch it an forget it. If it's an internal toothed

    lockwasher, leave it in the makeup of the joint but if you're

    running out of stud length, leave it off and use some non-

    permanent locking guckum on the nut.  E-6000 adhesive works

    nice. It extrudes out of the hi-pressure contact areas between

    threads and nut but keeps the nut secure for vibration induced

    loosening. Finally, not so strong a grip as to keep the nut

    from being removed.



    Bob . . .

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Hello Bob



"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use."



Much appreciate your input.



Sincerely

Ron Parigoris



Do not archive

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

At 06:41 PM 9/28/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello Bob



"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use."



Much appreciate your input.



Sincerely

Ron Parigoris


	


   That's a REALLY broad question . . . something akin to

   "tell me what you know". If you can articulate more

   definitive concerns, I and many others here on the List

   will try to be of assitance.



   Bob . . .



      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Hello Bob



Sorry for the confusion, I was thanking you for answering my 7 questions

on 09-24-06.



Sincerely

Ron Parigoris



Do Not Archive



On Sat, Sep 30, 2006, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> said:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 At 06:41 PM 9/28/2006 +0000, you wrote:

 

>

>

>Hello Bob

>

>"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use."

>

>Much appreciate your input.

>

>Sincerely

>Ron Parigoris

 

    That's a REALLY broad question . . . something akin to

    "tell me what you know". If you can articulate more

    definitive concerns, I and many others here on the List

    will try to be of assitance.

 

    Bob . . .

 


	


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



At 11:19 PM 9/24/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use.



This is for a Europa XS/Rotax 914 and B+C SD20S/LR3C, start point for

schematic was Z13/8.



Battery is 10 feet behind motor, Flaming River mechanical battery cut off

switch 3 feet ahead of battery aft side of passenger headrest.

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id 2



1) I am looking to use #4  MIL-W-22759/16 Tefzel wire for battery and

ground. There will be approx a 3 foot run of unprotected wire to the

battery cut off switch. Is there any extra protection that would be

prudent to incorporate?


	


    No



 	  Quote: 	
		  Some sort of robust sleeve on 1 wire, or a fusible

link? Or just not worry about it (not run too close near anything that

conducts)? I have the heavy duty Rotax starter, supposedly draws less amps

than old style, old style starter draw was I think 60 amps, not sure what

momentary is.


	


   It's a plastic airplane . . . don't worry about it.

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) I need to somehow get power and ground to 2 fuel pumps, wingtip

Strobe/Position LEDs and pitch servo. The headrest is approx 6 feet closer

to the battery (14 foot round trip) compared to the firewall mounted

ground and main bus. If I put a mini power and ground bus in or near the

headrest, would I be negating the concept of single point ground? Would

stealing power from the NO side of the battery cut off likely cause any

noise or other problems? Or just make extra runs from firewall?


	


   Minimize the numbers of busses. Run from the firewall.

 	  Quote: 	
		  3) Would it be advisable to series the battery cut off with the negative

or positive? Reason? I don't have any science to back this up, but I read

that when making model electric aeroplane battery packs, if you need to

make one lead longer than the other, make the negative longer than the

positive, it can help with black wire disease (what I have always done)??

Overall scheme, plenty more time will be spent with battery cutoff opened.


	


    Either way.

 	  Quote: 	
		  4) I will need to somehow break into the #4 battery wire not going to the

battery cut off switch. Instead of cutting the wire and putting on a lug

on each side, and screwing them back together along with an additional #10

wire ring, could I carefully strip, lets say an inch of insulation off the

#4, and strip 3" off the #10, then strip back the #10 to 1" except for 2

strands, then wrap the 2 strands over the 1" of #4 and 1" of #10 and

solder/heat shrink? I would use the adhesive lined heat shrink.


	


    That will cause some folks to roll their eyes back and

    mumble unkind things about you . . . but there's nothing

    wrong with the physics or failure modes and is probably

    a more reliable joint (low parts count, no threaded fasteners).

 	  Quote: 	
		  5) What is good practice to follow, the number of lugs I can stack on the

NO side of the battery cutoff switch stud?


	


    Depends on stud length. You need to see one full thread

    on the OFF-side of the nut when the joint is finished.

 	  Quote: 	
		  6) I forget the exact diameter of the NO side of the battery cutoff switch

stud, lets say it is 5/16". If lets say I wanted to stack a #4 and a

#10,is it acceptable to stack a ring terminal that has a smaller footprint

on top of one with a larger footprint? Or in this instance because loss of

this connection can cause loss of main and e-bus, use the same size lug,

make a brass insert and crimp/solder in the smaller wire?


	


    At the current levels you're dealing with, surface areas are

    not going to be an issue so much as joint make-up forces. Torque

    the nut down to about 1/2 the value recommended for steel of

    the same size/thread.

 	  Quote: 	
		  7) The Flaming River switch has copper threaded studs, came with a brass

nut and brass lock-washer. Would it be advisable to use a Phosphor bronze

star washer instead of the brass lock-washer?


	


    If the lockwasher is the typical automotive split-ring

    variety, pitch it an forget it. If it's an internal toothed

    lockwasher, leave it in the makeup of the joint but if you're

    running out of stud length, leave it off and use some non-

    permanent locking guckum on the nut.  E-6000 adhesive works

    nice. It extrudes out of the hi-pressure contact areas between

    threads and nut but keeps the nut secure for vibration induced

    loosening. Finally, not so strong a grip as to keep the nut

    from being removed.



    Bob . . .

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Good Afternoon All,



I noted the reference to using a brass bolt as a

firewall penetration point and ground. The particular

reference is on Z-15, View A.



That all sounds good to me!



What I have not been able to find is a source for the

proper brass bolt. The best I can find is

McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon bronze

bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I

rather thought it might be better to use a finer

thread.



Any thoughts?



I had in mind a 3/8-24. All they list is 3/8-16.



Is there a handy reference to the use of the brass

bolt for the grounding function which would include

any recommendations as to washers and nuts to be used

with the brass bolt?



Does anyone prefer a bronze bolt?



What type locking mechanism is most commonly used? Any

problem mixing up steel and brass? 



That is, could I use a brass or bronze bolt with a

steel elastic stop nut?



I am sure 'Lectric Bob has a shop note somewhere that

will tell me all this, but my search (as inelegant as

my searches are) has not yet located the guidance I

desire.



Any help greatly appreciated.



Happy Skies,



Old Bob

Stearman N3977A

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

 	  Quote: 	
		   What I have not been able to find is a source for the

 proper brass bolt. The best I can find is

 McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon bronze

 bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I

 rather thought it might be better to use a finer

 thread.


	


I don't see that fine thread is any more desireable than coarse in 

a conductivity sense.



http://tinyurl.com/faxe8

Try these folks and take a look at threaded brass or bronze 

rod. Shoot, you can even get brass castle nuts here....; )



 



Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Hey, Bob!



I don't know if these guys will sell you just the bolt, but it couldn't hurt

to ask...



http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html



--

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

Good Afternoon Bill,



Thanks for the heads up. Just goes to show how poor my

search efforts were. B&C was one of the places I

looked before I asked the list!



Happy Skies,



Old Bob



Do Not Archive



--- Bill Denton <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>

 

 Hey, Bob!

 

 I don't know if these guys will sell you just the

 bolt, but it couldn't hurt

 to ask...

 

 http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html

 

 

 

 --

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: Best wiring techniques to use?

At 04:36 PM 9/30/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hey, Bob!



I don't know if these guys will sell you just the bolt, but it couldn't hurt

to ask...



http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html


	


     Yes, I believe they will . . .  at least they used to.



     I understand the coarse thread "dilemma" . . . that

     just smacks a lot like automotive. However, fine thread

     brass is not easy to find in the wild. I have no problems

     with coarse. Just torque the final setup appropriate to

     the material and thread. Before putting the last nut on,

     wipe the treads with a little E6000 before installing

     the last nut. It will be just fine. It's PRESSSURE in the

     joint that gets you gas-tight. Thread-locking the nut

     will make sure the pressure stays there. And yes, 3/8

     would be better than 3/16.



     Bob . . .

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