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Lightning speed mods

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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

To All,

    I'm about ready to formally submit a proposal for my graduate thesis.  I 

would like all of your help.  At the facilities here in Shelbyville Pete and 

Nick have agreed to help me modify and flight test the prototype with some 

speed modifications.  My proposal includes the use of flap and aileron gap 

seals as well as fairings for the eight flap hinges.  In my literature 

review I have found very little actual data from a technical peer-reviewed 

type of a source on the flight testing of this type of speed modifications.  

T



here are some manufacturers such as Lo Presti and Knots 2 U that have 

"claims" of anywhere between 1 percent and 20 percent increase in speed.  

Now logically we should get an increase in speed, range, endurance, climb 

rate, etc.  The big question becomes exactly how much we'll get from doing 

these improvements.  We'll do a before and after test and all the data will 

be reduced to fit the standard day. In this way we can tell what the average 

speed gain will be and not just pick the day that would give us the best 

results.



I have got a design for the shape of the hinge fairings and Lamont said that 

he would help me to fashion them.  All the previous data has been for a 

Piper Cherokee using metal gap seals and everything was attached using 

screws.  My idea is that we won't use any metal pieces and that the hinge 

fairings will be much smoother and can be actually bonded to the wing 

surface.



If successful, and the results give us a good enough speed gain, I will 

contact a few different places and see if I can get molds made up to offer 

this as a kit.  What I need to know is if there's any interest in this?  I 

was asked if there was any market in this type of modification by the 

department chair.  I argued that there was.  How much would you be willing 

to pay for something that we'll say for now will give you 6-8 mph faster 

speeds.  If we could end up getting an additional 10mph speed through this 

and perhaps other future ideas, how much good would it do to bump up the 

aircraft's speed to 200+ mph at altitude?



Hopefully I'm right and there's folks out there on this board that thinks a 

200mph speed is a whole seperate class than the 100mph speeds.  So is it 

worth an extra speed and fuel savings at cruise?  In my opinion the fuel 

flow on this plane is superior to competition in this speed range, but would 

be even more so if the speed was 10-15mph higher.



Please everybody let me know what you think!  I'll be anxiously awaiting 

your responses.



Brian Whittingham

cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Brian, I am building my Lightning right now and would

and would without doubt buy any product that would

make the plane faster.   Charles Dewey



--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com>

 

 To All,

     I'm about ready to formally submit a proposal

 for my graduate thesis.  I 

 would like all of your help.  At the facilities here

 in Shelbyville Pete and 

 Nick have agreed to help me modify and flight test

 the prototype with some 

 speed modifications.  My proposal includes the use

 of flap and aileron gap 

 seals as well as fairings for the eight flap hinges.

  In my literature 

 review I have found very little actual data from a

 technical peer-reviewed 

 type of a source on the flight testing of this type

 of speed modifications.  

 T

 

 here are some manufacturers such as Lo Presti and

 Knots 2 U that have 

 "claims" of anywhere between 1 percent and 20

 percent increase in speed.  

 Now logically we should get an increase in speed,

 range, endurance, climb 

 rate, etc.  The big question becomes exactly how

 much we'll get from doing 

 these improvements.  We'll do a before and after

 test and all the data will 

 be reduced to fit the standard day. In this way we

 can tell what the average 

 speed gain will be and not just pick the day that

 would give us the best 

 results.

 

 I have got a design for the shape of the hinge

 fairings and Lamont said that 

 he would help me to fashion them.  All the previous

 data has been for a 

 Piper Cherokee using metal gap seals and everything

 was attached using 

 screws.  My idea is that we won't use any metal

 pieces and that the hinge 

 fairings will be much smoother and can be actually

 bonded to the wing 

 surface.

 

 If successful, and the results give us a good enough

 speed gain, I will 

 contact a few different places and see if I can get

 molds made up to offer 

 this as a kit.  What I need to know is if there's

 any interest in this?  I 

 was asked if there was any market in this type of

 modification by the 

 department chair.  I argued that there was.  How

 much would you be willing 

 to pay for something that we'll say for now will

 give you 6-8 mph faster 

 speeds.  If we could end up getting an additional

 10mph speed through this 

 and perhaps other future ideas, how much good would

 it do to bump up the 

 aircraft's speed to 200+ mph at altitude?

 

 Hopefully I'm right and there's folks out there on

 this board that thinks a 

 200mph speed is a whole seperate class than the

 100mph speeds.  So is it 

 worth an extra speed and fuel savings at cruise?  In

 my opinion the fuel 

 flow on this plane is superior to competition in

 this speed range, but would 

 be even more so if the speed was 10-15mph higher.

 

 Please everybody let me know what you think!  I'll

 be anxiously awaiting 

 your responses.

 

 Brian Whittingham

 

 

 



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__________________________________________________

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Brian,

  

 I trust you have carefully reviewed Kent Paser's book  "Speed with  Economy; Experimental aircraft performance improment"

  

 He did some careful testing and was able to get 64 mph increase in top  speed over the stock Mustang II  !!

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/5/2006 9:40:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,  dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

To    All,

    I'm about ready to formally submit a proposal for my    graduate thesis.  I 

would like all of your help.  At the    facilities here in Shelbyville Pete and 

Nick have agreed to help me modify    and flight test the prototype with some 

speed modifications.  My    proposal includes the use of flap and aileron gap 

seals as well as    fairings for the eight flap hinges.  In my literature 

review I have    found very little actual data from a technical peer-reviewed 

type of a    source on the flight testing of this type of speed modifications.     

T



here are some manufacturers such as Lo Presti and Knots 2 U that    have 

"claims" of anywhere between 1 percent and 20 percent increase in    speed.  

Now logically we should get an increase in speed, range,    endurance, climb 

rate, etc.  The big question becomes exactly how    much we'll get from doing 

these improvements.  We'll do a before and    after test and all the data will 

be reduced to fit the standard day. In    this way we can tell what the average 

speed gain will be and not just pick    the day that would give us the best 

results.



I have got a design    for the shape of the hinge fairings and Lamont said that 

he would help me    to fashion them.  All the previous data has been for a 

Piper Cherokee    using metal gap seals and everything was attached using 

screws.  My    idea is that we won't use any metal pieces and that the hinge 

fairings    will be much smoother and can be actually bonded to the wing    

surface.



If successful, and the results give us a good enough speed    gain, I will 

contact a few different places and see if I can get molds    made up to offer 

this as a kit.  What I need to know is if there's    any interest in this?  I 

was asked if there was any market in this    type of modification by the 

department chair.  I argued that there    was.  How much would you be willing 

to pay for something that we'll    say for now will give you 6-8 mph faster 

speeds.  If we could end up    getting an additional 10mph speed through this 

and perhaps other future    ideas, how much good would it do to bump up the 

aircraft's speed to 200+    mph at altitude?



Hopefully I'm right and there's folks out there on    this board that thinks a 

200mph speed is a whole seperate class than the    100mph speeds.  So is it 

worth an extra speed and fuel savings at    cruise?  In my opinion the fuel 

flow on this plane is superior to    competition in this speed range, but would 

be even more so if the speed    was 10-15mph higher.



Please everybody let me know what you think!     I'll be anxiously awaiting 

your responses.



Brian    Whittingham



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Doug,

   I haven't run across that book, but I'm early on in my research.  I will 

certainly try and find a copy of it.  A 63 mph increase in speed is 

phenomonal!  I have probed the old NACA report database and have searched 

the AIAA reports.  Most of what I have found is a series that HC Smith has 

written about for AIAA.



I assume that you are interested in speed mods since you mentioned this 

book?  Thanks for the heads up.  Brian W.

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Buzz,

   Did you ever get gap seals put on your Esqual?  What kind of material 

were you going to try for the gap seals?  I went over to the maintenance 

shop at Shelbyville today to look at a Cherokee with all of the Knots 2 U 

speed mods.  The pilot couldn't give me a before and after idea because 

those were put on and STC'd before he bought the plane.  He did tell me that 

from the book he was supposed to get 800 fpm climbs and got about 1200-1400 

normally.  Just wondering if you ever got anything on and tested since I 

talked with you last in Shelbyville.  Thanks, Brian W.

Daniel Vandenberg

Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Paser's book is still available from Mustang Aeronautics, the current purveyor of the Mustang II:



http://www.mustangaero.com/Store/ShoppingCart/index.htm



Dan



Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Lightning-List message posted by: "Brian Whittingham" 



Doug,

   I haven't run across that book, but I'm early on in my research.  I will 

certainly try and find a copy of it.  A 63 mph increase in speed is 

phenomonal!  I have probed the old NACA report database and have searched 

the AIAA reports.  Most of what I have found is a series that HC Smith has 

written about for AIAA.



I assume that you are interested in speed mods since you mentioned this 

book?  Thanks for the heads up.  Brian 		Get your email and more, right on the [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42973/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview] new Yahoo.com[/url]   [quote][b]

lbmathias(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Brian,



    I am scheduled to start building in late Nov and would be interested in 

the speed mods.



                                                Linda Mathias

---

cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Brian, This is Charles Dewey again and I will

undoubtedly buy any product that will make the

Lightning faster. My plane will be finished in a few

weeks, so I trust that the modifications you are

referring to can be added after the plane is already

built. Price would not prevent me from adding 10+

mph-it would be well worth it and make the Lightning

even more so one of the best planes for the money in

all general aviation and experimental aircraft ...



--- JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS

<lbmathias(at)verizon.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" <lbmathias(at)verizon.net>

 

 Brian,

 

     I am scheduled to start building in late Nov and

 would be interested in 

 the speed mods.

 

                                                

 Linda Mathias

 ---

tlhuffy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Brian I'm a dealer in the Midwest and this seems very promising hope you can work with Nick  Tom

    

  

 --

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: Lightning speed mods

In a message dated 10/5/2006 2:46:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Buzz,

   Did you ever get gap seals put on your    Esqual?  What kind of material 

were you going to try for the gap    seals? 	


 

 Brian, 

      I had to put this project on the back  burner.  I just have too much going on right now.  However, I did find  some .010 Duralar (kind of like mylar but opaque) that is almost 4 inches  wide.  I think I had to buy the entire worlds supply as it came in a 750  foot roll.  I had promised Nick enough to do the prototype Lightning, but  since I am too buys to work this project, you guys are welcome to the supply of  Duralar that I have so that you can do the experiments.  We certainly  have enough to do quite a few Lightnings and Esquals.  I will bring it to  Shelbyville the next time I get out that way.  Will probably be sometime in  early November.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

  [quote][b]

ajhauter(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Lightning speed mods

Can anyone shed the light on the design distinction between the lightning and esqual? Just curious if the esqual was the starting point and basic design enhancements were made from that design?

much obliged,



aj

On Oct 5, 2006, at 11:37 PM, N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]   In a message dated 10/5/2006 2:46:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com (dashvii(at)hotmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Buzz,

   Did you ever get gap seals put on your   Esqual?  What kind of material 

were you going to try for the gap   seals? 	


 

 Brian, 

      I had to put this project on the back burner.  I just have too much going on right now.  However, I did find some .010 Duralar (kind of like mylar but opaque) that is almost 4 inches wide.  I think I had to buy the entire worlds supply as it came in a 750 foot roll.  I had promised Nick enough to do the prototype Lightning, but since I am too buys to work this project, you guys are welcome to the supply of Duralar that I have so that you can do the experiments.  We certainly have enough to do quite a few Lightnings and Esquals.  I will bring it to Shelbyville the next time I get out that way.  Will probably be sometime in early November.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

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