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bruno1(at)netspeed.com.au
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 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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Hi, New to the list
I have been looking for a dxf or dwg file of the NACA 64018 airfoil that the 701 uses. A search of the web does not produce anything. Anyone know where I could get hold of it?
I am building my second 701. After reading about the changes made to the Savanah wing with extended nose rib, no slats and installed vg’s and the results of some other Ausie pilots (www.stolspeed.com) after removing their slats and installing vg’s I would like to compare the profile of the existing wing with the original NACA 64018. I was contemplating the retracting slat wing from Pegastol but it seems to be unavailable and may not provide much benefit.
It would seem that using the original profile with VG’s would produce a STOL wing with better top end performance. Any comments?
Regards
Bruno
Scratch building in Canberra
[quote][b]
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mgraves(at)usmo.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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According to this page. The HEINTZ Zenith CH701 uses the NACA 6515 mod. The modification is of course the slat.
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html
I would be interested in how you determined it was the NACA 64018? Possibly do you mean the airfoil portion of the 701 with the slat removed is the 64018?
removing the slat, would produce a VERY THICK round nose airfoil.....much like many UL type aircraft use.
And this page, may be able to help you on the Coordinates of both or either.
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html
Monty
At 03:47 PM 10/8/2006 +1000, you wrote:
[quote]Hi, New to the list
I have been looking for a dxf or dwg file of the NACA 64018 airfoil that the 701 uses. A search of the web does not produce anything. Anyone know where I could get hold of it?
I am building my second 701. After reading about the changes made to the Savanah wing with extended nose rib, no slats and installed vg s and the results of some other Ausie pilots (www.stolspeed.com) after removing their slats and installing vg s I would like to compare the profile of the existing wing with the original NACA 64018. I was contemplating the retracting slat wing from Pegastol but it seems to be unavailable and may not provide much benefit.
It would seem that using the original profile with VG s would produce a STOL wing with better top end performance. Any comments?
Regards
Bruno
Scratch building in Canberra
[b]
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ron.butterfield(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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I don't know about which airfoil the 701 uses, but if you want to play
with airfoils there is a very useful utility available here:
http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm
In addition to the airfoil data included, the program can generate the
4- or 5-digit NACA profiles.
--
Regards,
RonB
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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The PegaStol wings or whatever the new owner, Raymond Miller, decides to call them should be available this winter or early spring. Insofar as the retractable slats not helping much could be somewhat true if the difference between the PegaStol wings were only the slats. Even after saying that, the slats by themselves has some positive effect. The larger PegaStol slats will create more drag when deployed and certainly less drag when retracted forming an unbroken leading edge. Combining both, logic tells you that it will go slower and faster. But the performance improvements of the PegaStol wing is only partly derived from the slats. The airfoil is a NACA 2415, which is slimmer and more aerodynamic than the 64018 Zenith uses. The PegaStol wings use streamline struts with air deflectors at all connection points. Not only is less drag produced, the added benefit is that the jury struts are not needed or used. The only purpose jury struts serve is to control the vibration/movement cause by air flow when using round tubing as Zenith uses. The PegaStol flaperons are approximately 30% larger than Zenith's and again use the NACA 2415 airfoil. That's not to mention the entire wing setup is two feet longer.
My point is that people seem to want to narrow in on only the slats as being what makes the PegaStol wings different than the Zenith wings. The PegaStol performance improvements over the Zenith wing is the total package, no one element makes a significant difference in or by it's self. The PegaStol wing has a lower stall than the Zenith wing, 15 mph, higher cruise and top speed, vne is 125 mph. And a higher lift capacity, 1600 lbs with a lift coefficient of 3.6, Zenith is 1100 lbs and 3.3.
There is another little fact that no one seems to be aware of. The PegaStol wings sit 2 1/2" lower on the fuselage than the Zenith wings. I would think that this will give better airflow to the horizontal and elevator. That should account for better control at lower speeds.
The only downside I know of is that the PegaStol wings are about 100 lbs heavier than the Zenith wings. That's because PegaStol uses thicker skin, .0025 and twice as many ribs, 12 per wing vs 6 for Zenith. No beer canning there, and beer canning is another aerodynamic issue solved with the PegaStol wings. The weight is more than offset be the additional lift you get from the PegaStol wings.
And the beauty is that the price I paid was only $300 more than Zenith's. And, Raymond has told me he will keep the price completive.
Nope, I don't work for Raymond. Maybe I should.
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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The PegaStol wings or whatever the new owner, Raymond Miller, decides to call them should be available this winter or early spring. Insofar as the retractable slats not helping much, could be somewhat true if the only difference between the PegaStol wings and Zenith wings were the slats. Even after saying that, the slats by themselves has a positive effect. The larger PegaStol slats will create more drag when deployed and certainly less drag when retracted forming an unbroken leading edge. Combining both, logic tells you that it will go somewhat slower and faster. But the performance improvements of the PegaStol wing is only partly derived from the slats. The airfoil is a NACA 2415, which is slimmer and more aerodynamic than the 64018 Zenith uses. The PegaStol wings use streamline struts with air deflectors at all connection points. Not only is less drag produced, the added benefit is that the jury struts are not needed or used. The only purpose jury struts serve is to control the vibration/movement cause by air flow when using round tubing as Zenith uses. The PegaStol flaperons are approximately 30% larger than Zenith's and again use the NACA 2415 airfoil. Here again you get lower and faster speeds.
There is another little fact that no one seems to be aware of. The PegaStol wings sit 2 1/2" lower on the fuselage than the Zenith wings. I would think that this will give better airflow to the horizontal and elevator. That should account for better control at lower speeds.
The only downside I know of is that the PegaStol wings are about 100 lbs heavier than the Zenith wings. That's because PegaStol wings are two feet longer, use thicker skin, .0025 and twice as many ribs, 12 per wing vs 6 for Zenith. No beer/tin canning there, and beer canning is another aerodynamic issue solved with the PegaStol wings. The weight is more than offset be the additional lift you get from the PegaStol wings.
My point is that people seem to want to narrow in on only the slats as being what makes the PegaStol wings superior to the Zenith wings. The PegaStol performance improvements over the Zenith wing is the total package, no one element makes a significant difference in or by it's self. The PegaStol wing has a lower stall than the Zenith wing, 15 mph, higher cruise and top speed, vne is 125 mph. And a higher lift capacity, 1600 lbs with a lift coefficient of 3.6, Zenith is 1200 lbs and 3.3.
And the beauty is that the price I paid was only $300 more than Zenith's. And, Raymond has told me he will keep the price completive.
Nope, I don't work for Raymond. Maybe I should.
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com.
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nyterminat(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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Larry,
Are you flying yet??????? I can't wait to see your report on how the wing flys. I am very interested in the Pegastol wing. Hope all is well.
Bob Spudis
Do not archive
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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Am I missing something here? Although I am a huge supporter of the homebuilder and his right to make his plane any way he sees fit. I wish to also temper some postings with reason for the newbie ‘s on the list. Larry has made a lot of modifications to his plane, then modified again and again to fit his idea of a plane suitable for him, and god bless him I love his creativity whether I agree with some of his changes or not. Now for the average builder of a 701 realize that it is a STOL aircraft with the shortest wingspan possible for it’s design. This allows you to get in and out of spots otherwise not possible. The slats are fixed and have never been modified for safety reasons. Retracting slats are a great thing but if you store your plane outside and may not be the most active person in the maintenance dept it is possible to have a slat at some point in time of the history of your 701 stick and worse yet only one sticks. ( This has happened several times causing death to other models, it has happened to Chris Heintz and put him in a spiral dive unexpectantly ) But you do gain top end speed, you can make your 701 go 115mph except that it is rated at a Vne of 110. Most 701’s can cruise at 85- 90mph with the Rotax 912 and those with the 912S and cleaning up several things like the struts will result in a cruise of 105mph (This is a real world figure reported by the RAA in a magazine comparison). So we all know Chris designs his planes with a great degree of safety in mind and we all know that the 701 is truly an incredible STOL performing aircraft ( that is why we buy them ) is it advisable to cruise at Vne or just below it. ( I can’t offer an opinion on that, I won’t do it myself) IS it worth installing all these different features not approved by the designer? Not if your using the plane for it’s intentions or concerned about safety. For those who enjoy working on their plane a lot and spend as much time or more fiddling as they do flying then I say knock yourself out and change away. But if your looking for a great STOL aircraft that will perform well then build it to plans and go flying !!
Larry when are you going to get in the air, I want to see that HOG fly. Will you make it to Sun-N-Fun ? I believe your plane has been painted for two years now and I’m dying to see it.
I’m not in any way trying to insult anyone, or think ill in any way. However, I just want new owners to recognize that everybody is different and each plane is in some way is built different. We all add our special touches to our machines and each of us think that they are great additions. I’m proud of some of my changes and smacking an idiot sticker on my forehead for some other choices( I’ve done some beauts over the years that made complete sense at the start but looking back were idiotic). If your building your plane to have a flying aircraft then build to plans as Chris designed you will get what you want. If your building for adventure of building then consider all possibilities and be adventurous. For the rest of you read close to distinguish the difference in the builders personality, their best choices may be your worse nightmare, were all different, which is exciting. Now go build ! Also to all Canadians Happy Thanksgiving ! U.S. people have to wait another month and a bit.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nyterminat(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:43 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 701 airfoil and VG's
Larry,
Are you flying yet??????? I can't wait to see your report on how the wing flys. I am very interested in the Pegastol wing. Hope all is well.
Bob Spudis
Do not archive
--
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ch701builder
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 119
Location: N38.9947,W105.1305,ALT. 9,100'
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: 701 airfoil and VG's |
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All,
Sorry I am a little bit behind with this email. Been TDY to Kuwait for the last couple weeks.
Here is a link that has a very good list of air-foils used on different planes. Look under Heintz Zenith
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html
| Quote: | Conventional Aircraft: Wing Root Airfoil Wing Tip Airfoil
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Heintz Zenith CH 601 HD NACA 65-018 NACA 65-018
Heintz Zenith CH 601 XL NACA 23018 NACA 23015
Heintz Zenith CH 701 NACA 6515 mod NACA 6515 mod
Heintz Zenith CH 801 NACA 6515 mod NACA 6515 mod
Hope this gives you some ideas.
Keep building, pounding, squeezing, pulling, or flying!!!
Keith
CH701 -- 8%
Sidewinder -- 2%
Teenie Two -- wooden forms
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
*****************************************************************************
Ron Butterfield wrote: | Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Butterfield" <ron.butterfield(at)gmail.com> (ron.butterfield(at)gmail.com)
I don't know about which airfoil the 701 uses, but if you want to play
with airfoils there is a very useful utility available here:
http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm
In addition to the airfoil data included, the program can generate the
4- or 5-digit NACA profiles.
|
--
************************************* Keith Ashcraft 4 3 2004-01-06T20:01:00Z 2004-01-06T20:29:00Z 1 34 198 ITT Advanced Engineering & Sciences 1 1 243 9.3821 <![endif]--> Print 150 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
*************************************
Keith Ashcraft
ITT Industries
Advanced Engineering & Sciences
5009 Centennial Blvd.
Colorado Springs, CO
80919
(719) 599-1787 -- work
(719) 332-4364 -- cell
keith.ashcraft(at)itt.com (keith.ashcraft(at)itt.com)
[quote]************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ [quote][b]
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