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props for Guy

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rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: props for Guy

Guy,

Just a caution.  Be sure that you review your "abort takeoff" procedure

prior to flying after you add pitch.  



I may be all wet, because I haven't been following this thread too closely

and don't know how big an increase the 13 degrees is.  But I feel it is

possible that it will really reduce your climb rate.  Just be ready.



Randy



.           

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: props for Guy

Guy,

    I haven't followed this thread too close either but try this, forget all 

there is about getting off the ground in 200' or whatever....Adjust the prop 

so that you get 6799 (short of 6800 max) RPM's in level flight with full 

throttle.  You will have to hold some forward stick when you put in full 

throttle to get that level flight.  Just hold that full throttle for a short 

time (less than 1 min) until you have everything stabilized out.  You want 

to have near 6800 RPM and EGT's running about 1150 ball park.  Re jet or re 

pitch to get those numbers.

    This is the procedure that I have used and heard about for the last many 

years.  The name of the game is  be nice to your engine and not try for 5 

more MPH or pick up 100' climb rate.  What you get is what you get.....



Don Smythe

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: props for Guy

Don, Good points on the prop.........  set it and forget it   !!

I just posted simular numbers in  my last post I just sent.



As far as forgeting to get off in 200 feet ,  well I have to disagree to a 

certain extent. Kitfoxes are a great plane with a wide envelope if 

performance and they certainly do excell  at STOL and off field flying. 

You guys have to remember that pilot technique certainly helps alot as well. 

On paved surfaces your take off runs should be shorter.



I think that Guy has a approx 600 pound IV Kitfox and should certainly 

EASILY be  capable of enjoying flying his Kitfox and many others do.



To be honest , a 582 Kitfox that takes 900 feet to take off , well you might 

as well have a C 152 .......  My Kitfox Dual at 80F on amphib floats get off 

the runway in less that 800 feet.. A 582 Kitfox as above should be at 100 

feet agl min. after 900  not just taking off.



As far as re - jetting etc  , in my opinion that a stock jetting works well 

for me all year round and I fly from -15 F to  100F .  I run the needles on 

the 3 rd notch down  from spring to falll.  My Egts are getting a bit high 

now ands I think on next plug change at 50 hours which is due any day now I 

will drop the clip on needle valve to bottom notch. That should drop Egts a 

bit.  I run 1100 to 1200 with no issues but CHECK your Plugs to confirm. 

Prop pitching is very important ot keeping EGTs in line as well as the 

Needles and jetting.



Also , one last note is on RPM -- do not trust  a ROTAX tach.  Get a tiny 

tach !!   They 30 or 40$ and you might be thinking that you are running at 

6800 WOT  but get a tiny to  confirm if you at 6800,  6200 or even 7400 

 rpm -Rtoax tachs are notorious for be not accurate.

Dave



---

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Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: props for Guy

Dave,

I can confirm that Rotax tachs can be notoriously inaccurate. I have

just put a Tiny Tach in my Kitfox II (582) to check the accuracy of the

Rotax and found a 500 rpm error. This was confirmed with an optical

tach. My idle had been 1500 rpm (2000 indicated) and takeoff at 5700 rpm

(6300 indicated). I've since repitched the prop for 6500 rpm and

adjusted the idle to 2100 rpm using the Tiny Tach.



The reason for suspecting the tach was a gearbox failure (E-box)

probably caused by the low idle rpm. The only things I didn't have to

change in the gearbox was the case, the sprag clutch and the output

shaft. I bought the plane with 125 hours and have just turned 138.

Failure was at 137. Prior to the rebuild by Light Aircraft Services the

engine idled smoothly and there was no indication of a gearbox problem.

Bob Robertson suspected that the failure happened over a 10-20 hour

period. After the rebuild with no other changes there was a wicked

harmonic at idle. The blades were creating a 2" sine wave! Remember that

this is a 1500 rpm idle but shown as 2000 rpm by the Rotax tach. Now

that it is up to 2100 rpm things are smooth again.



Mike Crutchlow



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_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: props for Guy

At 06:12 PM 10/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Also , one last note is on RPM -- do not trust  a ROTAX tach.  Get a tiny

tach !!   They 30 or 40$ and you might be thinking that you are running at

6800 WOT  but get a tiny to  confirm if you at 6800,  6200 or even 7400

rpm -Rtoax tachs are notorious for be not accurate.


	


Thought of that. I have a GRT EIS and checked it's numbers against my 

optical tach, (model aircraft,) and it was spot-on. Thanks for the tip, though.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: props for Guy

At 03:48 PM 10/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just a caution.  Be sure that you review your "abort takeoff" procedure

prior to flying after you add pitch.


	


I've got 5000' x 150' of paved runway to work with. No problem aborting.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: props for Guy

At 04:54 PM 10/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      This is the procedure that I have used and heard about for the last many

years.  The name of the game is  be nice to your engine and not try for 5

more MPH or pick up 100' climb rate.  What you get is what you get.....


	


I know. I know. It's just that I'm trying to make sense of my performance 

calc's and it's not working out. I'm getting about 6550rpm at a density 

altitude of 5500' so I'm close to proper pitch. If speed varies with the 

cube root of horsepower, then I'm cruising at about 43hp. (65hp * 

(80mph/92mph)^3) But at 5800rpm (cruise) I should have about 58hp. (I 

cruise at 80 at 5800, max 92 at 6550.)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: props for Guy

My "Kitfox" tach was even further out at the top end.  I was losing about

250 rpm/ 1000 actual rpm.  E.g. when the Kitfox tach was reading 2000 the

actual speed was around 1500.  When the Kitfox tach was reading 6000 actual

rpm was close to 4500. 



 I was using 6600-6800 rpm for take off and getting absolutely terrible

results.... No wonder actual rpm was 4800-4900.  It is a miracle to me that

I was actually able to get the mod III-A off the water at close to gross

weight.



Since installing the tiny tach I have been most happy with the performance.

My EGTs are very consistent and except for the first twenty seconds after

starting the engine cold there is very little vibration.



The fellow who originally built the plane once told me that he was very

disappointed in the 582.  He said if he had it to do again he would have

installed the 912.  When I got the plane from the second owner I was told

there were some concerns about the engine cooling and the plane didn't seem

to pull the way other 'Foxes did.  Between having the expansion bottle

plumbed to the high pressure side of the cooling system and the faulty tach

I'm not surprised!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: props for Guy

Great story Noel.  This is the kind of stuff we can

all learn from no matter which engine we have.  One or

2 errors out of the whole plane's construction and the

difference is great.



Kurt S.



Do not archive



--- Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   My "Kitfox" tach was even further out at the top

 end.  I was losing about

 250 rpm/ 1000 actual rpm.  E.g. when the Kitfox tach

 was reading 2000 the

 actual speed was around 1500.  When the Kitfox tach

 was reading 6000 actual

 rpm was close to 4500. 

 

  I was using 6600-6800 rpm for take off and getting

 absolutely terrible

 results.... No wonder actual rpm was 4800-4900.  It

 is a miracle to me that

 I was actually able to get the mod III-A off the

 water at close to gross

 weight.

 

 Since installing the tiny tach I have been most

 happy with the performance.

 My EGTs are very consistent and except for the first

 twenty seconds after

 starting the engine cold there is very little

 vibration.

 

 The fellow who originally built the plane once told

 me that he was very

 disappointed in the 582.  He said if he had it to do

 again he would have

 installed the 912.  When I got the plane from the

 second owner I was told

 there were some concerns about the engine cooling

 and the plane didn't seem

 to pull the way other 'Foxes did.  Between having

 the expansion bottle

 plumbed to the high pressure side of the cooling

 system and the faulty tach

 I'm not surprised!

 

 Noel


	


__________________________________________________

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: props for Guy

Hi Mike,



Glad you have found that a Tiny tach helps you as well.



582s like to run 2100 +  for smooth operation  it seems.  I am quite happy 

with mine.

I  see by your email that you are in Ontario.  I am looking forward for some 

great flying days this fall.  Hope fully we an get a gaggle of Kitfoxes in 

SW ontario to meet for breakfast one day.  I think there are about 10 to 20 

in  Southern Ontario area

Dave

---

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: props for Guy

Dave,



Even with the "bad" tach, the 582 performed very well. These Kitfoxes

are amazing compared to some of the production line planes like the

Cessna 152 that I trained in.



There are 2 Kitfoxes on our field just north of Waterdown (Hamilton). It

would be good to get a number of them together for breakfast.



Mike



--

_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: props for Guy

Hi Mike,  3 of us flew to  Reeces  corners for breakfast on Sunday  near 

Sarnia.



Where would you propose a good place to go on a Saturday or Sunday ?

I am certainly game for grass,field, beach or a paved runway.



Yes the Kitfoxes are great  !



Dave



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: props for Guy

One decent dent in the aft fuselage of the 152 and it's grounded until that

skin is replaced.  That's one of the weaknesses of a monocoque construction.

 I worked on a Super Cub that arrived here with the whole tail bent over a

good twenty degrees.  The pilot said he didn't notice it.....  I think he

was the one who bent it.  Tube frame aircraft are a lot tougher than a lot

of people think.

 

That's another story.

Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: props for Guy

Dave,

I haven't flown much out of my area here. I'm not sure of a suitable

place.



Mike



DO NOT ARCHIVE



--

_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

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