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wheel landings

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: wheel landings

Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really aren't difficult

at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or

bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique that is best taught by

someone who is good at it.  The person who teaches you doesn't really need

to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get

the hang of it.

They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty

and/or with crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.

Deke

S5 in NE Michigan



---

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: wheel landings

In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  fox5flyer(at)i-star.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really    aren't difficult

at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short    coupled, spring, or

bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique    that is best taught by

someone who is good at it.  The person who    teaches you doesn't really need

to be a CFI, just someone competent and who    can stick with you until you get

the hang of it.

They're really useful    in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty

and/or with    crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt    only.

Deke

S5 in NE Michigan 	


 

 I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are  short, so I can only guess on how many landings.

  

 I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3  pointer.  Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.  

  

 I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said  that.  Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on  the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.

  

 The problem is simple.  During the transition of the tail  coming down from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is  due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge  concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to  a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.

  

 So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a  wheeler.  But not me.

  

 Just another opinion....!

  

 Dave

  

  

  [quote][b]

Bill Willyard

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Grandville, Michigan U.S.A.

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: wheel landings

Dave,

   I am inclined to agree with you both from experience and through the flight instructor who gave my last biannual. He learned to fly tail draggers in South Dakota and is not much of an advocate for wheel landings in small aircraft as a solution for cross wind technique. I find that a touch of power will give me tail authority all the way to the three point touch down should I need it. 

    

   I must say that this was the best biannual I ever had. We were having so much fun taking turns flying that it lasted for over 3 hours. I learned more about tail wheel flying and my Kitfox during this time than I have since I received my tail wheel endorsement. 

    

   Bill W.

   Yet another opinion....!

    

  

       

 

   I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer.  Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway. 

    

   I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said that.  Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.

    

   The problem is simple.  During the transition of the tail coming down from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.

    

   So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a wheeler.  But not me.

    

   Just another opinion....!

    

   Dave

    

    

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


    Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. 

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bill Willyard
Classic IV 912UL

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: wheel landings

I've had that unpleasant experience in "transition" during the high-speed taxi phase of flight testing. You can wind up pointed the other way very quickly. Since then, i've done wheel landings, some form of which aren't really unusual in my model 2 given its tendency to full-mush rather than full-stall on landing.

   

  For me, the key in transition with a wheeler is to plant the tailwheel before the rudder loses authority and after the airplane quits wanting to fly. Oh .  .  .and make sure the nose is pointed straight down the runway at that exact instant! 

  [quote]      In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fox5flyer(at)i-star.com writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		  

Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really aren't difficult

at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or

bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique that is best taught by

someone who is good at it.  The person who teaches you doesn't really need

to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get

the hang of it.

They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty

and/or with crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.

Deke

S5 in NE Michigan 	


  

  I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.

   

  I personally feel I can  land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer.  Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway. 

   

  I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said that.  Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.

   

  The problem is simple.  During the transition of the tail coming down from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.

   

  So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a wheeler.  But not me.

   

  Just another opinion....!

   

  Dave

  	  	 		Get your own [url= http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43290/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains]web address for just $1.99/1st yr[/url]. We'll help.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: wheel landings

Thanks, Deke...yup, I'm gonna get to the 'wheelers', but it'll be when 

my instructor says so.



Lynn

On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 07:56  AM, Fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really aren't 

 difficult

 at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, 

 spring, or

 bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique that is best taught by

 someone who is good at it.  The person who teaches you doesn't really 

 need

 to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until 

 you get

 the hang of it.

 They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's 

 gusty

 and/or with crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt 

 only.

 Deke

 S5 in NE Michigan



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: wheel landings

Thanks for your comments, Dave. Sounds like you and Ed Downs are on the 

same wavelength.



Lynn

On Wednesday, October 11, 2006, at 09:45  AM, Aerobatics(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 

 fox5flyer(at)i-star.com writes:

 Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really aren't 

 difficult

 at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, 

 spring, or

 bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique that is best taught by

 someone who is good at it.  The person who teaches you doesn't really 

 need

 to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until 

 you get

 the hang of it.

 They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's 

 gusty

 and/or with crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt 

 only.

 Deke

 S5 in NE Michigan

 I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights 

 are short, so I can only guess on how many landings.

  

 I personally feel I can land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 

 pointer.  Out here in the plains the wind can howl and we fly anyway.

  

 I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he 

 said that.  Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at 

 least on the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.

  

 The problem is simple.  During the transition of the tail coming down 

 from a wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is 

 due to the fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this 

 become a huge concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you 

 go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.

  

 So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a 

 wheeler.  But not me.

  

 Just another opinion....!

  

 Dave

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: wheel landings

On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:45 PM, Aerobatics(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   During the transition of the tail coming down from a wheeler, the 

 rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the fuse 

 blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge 

 concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you go from a 

 plane to a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.


	


Yes, I have also wondered why a wheel landing was better in crosswind. 

I thought that a two wheels (the weather main one, and the tail, in a 

sideslip configuration) would be best. Mind you, I haven't tried it yet 

and I am still a novice; keen to learn from more experienced pilots.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: wheel landings

I also have a kitfox 2 and do both I would say more wheel landings now more  than 3 point since i am flying off of pavement now its no different than taking  off bring tail up and then fly off . to land set mains on and bring tail down  now . 

  

 Fly safe fly low fly slow

 John Peerry

 Kitfox 2 718PD

 [quote]   ---

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: wheel landings

No one has mentioned brakes to keep the a/c straight. Doesn't matter if it's 

a wheeler or stalled ldg, when the a/c slows it'll try to turn into wind. 

The beauty of the wheeler when correctly done is to make good wheel contact 

hence good braking control.





From:  Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: wheel landings

Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:36:14 -0700 (PDT)



I've had that unpleasant experience in "transition" during the high-speed 

taxi phase of flight testing. You can wind up pointed the other way very 

quickly. Since then, i've done wheel landings, some form of which aren't 

really unusual in my model 2 given its tendency to full-mush rather than 

full-stall on landing.



For me, the key in transition with a wheeler is to plant the tailwheel 

before the rudder loses authority and after the airplane quits wanting to 

fly. Oh .  .  .and make sure the nose is pointed straight down the runway at 

that exact instant! 



In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:00:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 

fox5flyer(at)i-star.com writes:

Lynn, by all means learn to do wheel landings.  They really aren't difficult

at all and it doesn't matter whether the Kitfox is short coupled, spring, or

bungie gear.  They just take a certain technique that is best taught by

someone who is good at it.  The person who teaches you doesn't really need

to be a CFI, just someone competent and who can stick with you until you get

the hang of it.

They're really useful in a lot of situations, especially when it's gusty

and/or with crosswinds.  I have no idea why Ed Downs would say 3pt only.

Deke

S5 in NE Michigan

I now have about 350 hours in my KF model 2, and since most flights are 

short, so I can only guess on how many landings.



I personally feel I can

land in a stronger crosswind with a 3 pointer.  Out here in the plains the 

wind can howl and we fly anyway.



I also happen to agree with Mr. Downs and frankly, didn't even know he said 

that.  Having tried many different ways in different aircraft, at least on 

the KF 2, I quite strongly recommend only 3 pointers.



The problem is simple.  During the transition of the tail coming down from a 

wheeler, the rudder effectiveness is greatly reduced. This is due to the 

fuse blanketing and low airspeed. In a crosswind, this become a huge 

concern, on pavement... well yikes.  On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to 

a car instantly with all 3 wheels contacting.



So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a 

wheeler.  But not me.



Just another opinion....!



Dave

Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help.



_________________________________________________________________

Find the coolest online games (at) http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming

ThomasTomlin(at)comcast.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: wheel landings

Excellent discussion from all sorts of angles.

 My instructer stressed wheelies especially  when gusts are down the runway.

 His point was that in a three point stall attitude  into a gusty wind and right before touchdown, you could balloon up too  high over the runway, at a high angle of attack and then if the gust stops  there you are without enough time to add power to arrest the sink rate.   Pushing forward on the stick would be a poor gamble also.

 If the wind is that strong, your landing  roll shouldn't be that long either.   Just what I was  taught.

 Good input, all

  

 Tom

  

  

 ps

 I landed in Salina Kansas this past summer in 28  gusting to 32 right down the runway.

 Did a wheel landing and it just kinda stopped and I lowered  the tail.  The the short crosswind taxi to the ramp was done as much into  the wind as possible.  I didn't follow the painted taxi centerlines but  angled across the short taxiway onto a huge apron where I immediately pointed  her back into the wind..  The linemen had to come out to grab the struts so  I could let go of the brakes to get out.  Funny  how I didn't havta p no mo when I finally got tied  down.  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: wheel landings

A valid topic here on Wheel landing  opinions. 

  

 I will hold firm in that everyone should be able to land in 2 point wheel  or 3 point landings. 

  

 I would like to challenge everyone to make some vidoes on how to land a  Kitfox each way and them for all to see.  I can host a video if that is  necessary or put it on Goggle video Like Gary Walsh did  (And a very good  job at that Gary !! THANKS) 

  

 It is  quite clear that we have mixed opinions on this topic as there  are on grove gear versus the tube gear on which one is easier to fly. Alot of  this stems back to the pilot experience and abilities it seems.   So I  find every time I fly that I like to be able to hone my piloting skills.  learn and improve my skills.  And certainly we all have a wealth of  knowledge that can be shared and each one of us can learn from each other.  

  

 Does every one find that they can take off like this video  showed  ?  http://cfisher.com/kitfox/coffeebreak.wmv      It has  been  downloaded about 400 times now and cetainly a few have  been shown that Kitfoxes can actually leave the ground in a few hundred  feet  but yet not much discusion  really.    And the  reason I did that was for Guy as he was using up 700 to 1000 feet of runway to  take off in a 582 powered Kitfox which I thought was was out of line  and  now you can see that 200 to 300 foot take offs are the norm for a Kitfox.

  

 I will  try to do some more videos of wheel landings if you guys think  it would be an attribute. 

  

  

 Dave 

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: wheel landings

I only have a right brake for last month or so.  I have a kit from Matco for 

my left master but have not put it  in yet.

I find brakes more helpful with amphibs on to turn sharper but on wheels 

rarely use them.

It fun now landing and trying to use brakes  ( right only )  almost full 

left rudder and right brake as it the only one that works   < ggg>

On skis I never use them  < chuckle >



The rudder is what controls my steering at a faster speed than taxing.   But 

I will say that on Amphibs with a strong X wind that differential braking is 

required while taxing to keep it straight at times with strong winds.  I 

would not want to have to depend on brakes for steering though.

Dave



---

Don Cravener

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 10

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: wheel landings

Dave:

 Not meaning to change the subject , but what kind of amphibs are you flying?

 Thanks

 Don C.

 KF IV 

 3300 Jab

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: wheel landings

Aerocets  1100s 

 [quote]   ---

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