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Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Hello all,



I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have found several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in the 2500 lbs. gross range.  One is tube/fabric and the others are all-aluminum craft.  I'm purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this discussion.



At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had presumed that this was the way I would go.  But now that I've seen tube/fabric, I'm wondering why either of these competing design philosophies would be any more/less beneficial than the other.  Web searches on the subject reveal little useful information, although I might not be searching with the proper terminology.



Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft?  I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.



Thanks and best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Chris,

 You are going to find its just like any other endeavor being the costs, the availabiltiy of parts and materials, your talents and tooling, space to build, and how it will be used or stored (hangared).  Get out to an EAA chapter and look and talk to some builders and or visit their home shops to see the difference in the building methods and maybe do a hands on practice with both methods.  Some of the aluminum kits have a builders weekend you can enter for exposure too.  Keep what you build as the starter on the project you may chose............Price usually doesn't enter in if you make up your mind on one kit over the other.

  

 Sid

 let us know which way you are leaning with names of brands and or manufacturers.  You won't step on toes or hurt feelings..........

 ----------------------------

 

"Why can't we all just get along?" 



 ---

dfultz7(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Sid,,,, I would say he is comparing the bearhawk  and the Murphy moose.  Been down the road...  Dale

 [quote] [b]

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

A good guess 



And you can add the Dream Aircraft Tundra and BushCaddy L-164B to your list as well.



But the primary question remains, regardless of which plane manufacturer it is, are there benefits to one form over the other (all aluminum vs. tube/fabric).  Their overall prices are in the same range, gross weights and empty weights are similar, fuel capacity nearly the same, and engine choices in the same ballpark.  So those things being equal, what else is there to consider?



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Those are both monster machines for a first time builder.........maybe he should be looking at the Zenith 701/801 and an Avid or Kitfox...........?

  

 Sid

 --------------------

 

"Why can't we all just get along?" 



 ---

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

All good options and are under consideration should a larger aircraft be too expensive to build or insure.  The aircraft you suggested as potential build candidates fall into those two categories referenced in the original question, all aluminum and tube/fabric.



Which still begs the question, what are the benefits of one kind of construction over the other?



Perhaps now you understand why I purposely left out the manufacturers in the first post.  This might be the reason I just ordered Ron Wanttaja's "Kit Airplane Construction" from Amazon 



I appreciate your insights 



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

dfultz7(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Sid,, The Moose is a big undertaking for the first  time builder, I am a first time builder and just about through the process. If I  hadn't changed the landing gear around to a trigear set up rather then  taildragger I would probably be done by now and flying, but glad I did it now  that it starting to look like an airplane. I wouldn't be as far  as I am without help from guys on list like this and others, I really have  to thank the guys that have taken time to answer my email questions when I had  them..  I try to return the favor now for others when I can..   Dale

 [quote] [b]

dab(at)froghouse.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

At Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:13:45 -0700,

"Chris In Madison" <cowens(at)cnw.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum

 vs. tube/fabric aircraft?  I'm open to any and all thoughts on the

 subject.


	


Sure, I'll spout my opinions.  The short form is that I'm a fan of

tube and fabric.  I think it's stronger for the weight and much easier

to repair.  I don't know if a fabric plane is easier to build for a

homebuilder but I susupect it may be, especially given a kit where the

frame comes all welded.



The generally espoused downsides to fabric are that it has a shorter

lifespan and a fabric plane MUST be in a hangar.  Yeah, fabric

probably is not likely to last as long as aluminum but they're saying

15 to 20 years for modern fabrics and I believe 15 is quite feasible.

At the recover time though, you get to go through the plane from stem

to stern and fix anything and everything that looks dubious.  You can

have essentially a new airframe.  I've heard of people reskinning an

aluminum plane and I can't imagine the effort involved.



As for requiring a hangar, I don't think there's so much difference

there.  Yeah, it'll shorten the lifespan of the fabric some to be

outside but you can do it.  My Maule has 8 year old fabric on it.

It's been outside the last few summers but I've managed to find hangar

space each winter.  I just signed a lease on a new hangar this morning

so I'm pleased about that prospect.  From the looks of the fabric

there's no reason it won't still be on the plane in another 8 or 12

years.



 -Dave

jghunter(at)nol.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

have you seen any tube and fabric aircraft traveling over 200 mph, for

example... 



On 10/11/2006, "Chris In Madison" <cowens(at)cnw.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello all,



I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have found several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in the 2500 lbs. gross range.  One is tube/fabric and the others are all-aluminum craft.  I'm purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this discussion.



At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had presumed that this was the way I would go.  But now that I've seen tube/fabric, I'm wondering why either of these competing design philosophies would be any more/less beneficial than the other.  Web searches on the subject reveal little useful information, although I might not be searching with the proper terminology.



Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft?  I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.



Thanks and best regards,

Chris



--------

Chris Owens

Waunakee, WI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67176#67176

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Thanks for your thoughts, Dave.  I've heard from a couple of other sources as well that tube & fabric are easier to repair.  That's definitely a benefit.  I suppose if you bend the tubing, it being steel makes it a bit easier to bend back without fracturing (within limits).  I'd also heard the same comments regarding strength of the steel airframe.  Come recovering time, as you'd mentioned, it definitely gives you a chance to inspect everything.  I hadn't thought about that.  Good insight   The longevity of the fabric is certainly a concern.  I'll look more into that as well.



I do like the Maules.  Some recent used models are even cheaper to buy than build something similar, I'm noticing.



Good point, Mr. Hunter, regarding speed.  Can't say that I've seen a super-fast fabric aircraft 



As for the Moose builder, I'm intrigued by the tri-gear setup you described.  Any pictures following the history of this modification?  I'd love to see them.  When I talked to Mr. Murphy at Oshkosh this year, he'd mentioned the the upcoming Yukon is essentially a 2500 lb. Moose, and tri-gear is an option.  I'll be interested to see their demo plane at SnF or Oshosh next year.



Thanks again for all of your opinions.  Feel free to continue if you have further insight to share.



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

If he reads this it will assist him too.  Glad to hear you are on the downhill slide and might finish.....go for it.

  

 Sid

 up north in Michigan with snow on the way............

 

"Why can't we all just get along?" 



 ---

steve(at)byu.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

It will finally come down to a few things.



Which do you prefer?

Which medium do you want to gain skills, and tool up for?

Will you hangar or not?

Repairablity.



Fabric and welding are easy, but take lots of time, offer very good

repairabilty, and periodic inspection during recover.  Fabric will last

20 years or more if hangared. I prefer tube and fabric because I think

it looks better.  Aluminum can't make sweeping curves or round out

corners nearly as easily as Aluminum.  I prefer the Bearhawk, and will

probably build one after my Stinson.



Aluminum on the other hand also offers ease of workability, but isn't as

readily repaired in the field.  (not with duct tape anyway)  it

obviously is a tried and true material, has good strength and corrosion

resistance and will last a long time outside (though other airplane

parts will suffer, instrumentation, interior, windows)  You will dent it

before you poke a hole in it.  



I prefer the Bearhawk, and will probably build one after my Stinson.  It

has both tube, fabric, and aluminum.  You get to tool up and learn both

skills.



Thems my thoughts.



Steve E



--

jimcarriere

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

It's going back a few years, but the original Hawker Hurricane was a 300mph tube and fabric airplane 



If there is a must-read for the first time buider, Ron Wantajja's book is a strong candidate.  The only problem might be that by the time you're done reading it, you may not only be considering pro/con tube and fabric vs aluminum, but composite and even wood too.

fltrbg(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum

Wittman Tailwind W-10.Many examples with 0-360 well over 200 mph max.speed.This is a tube and fabric airframe with plywood covered wings.Plans available from ACS.0-200 power 160 mph max speed range.

   John.



jam-n <jghunter(at)nol.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: jam-n 

have you seen any tube and fabric aircraft traveling over 200 mph, for

example... 



On 10/11/2006, "Chris In Madison" wrote:



[quote]--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" 



Hello all,



I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have found several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in the 2500 lbs. gross range. One is tube/fabric and the others are all-aluminum  craft. I'm purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this discussion.



At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had presumed that this was the way I would go. But now that I've seen tube/fabric, I'm wondering why either of these competing design philosophies would be any more/less beneficial than the other. Web searches on the subject reveal little useful information, although I might not be searching with the proper terminology.



Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft? I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.



Thanks and best regards,

Chris



--------

Chris Owens

Waunakee, WI





Read this topic online 		Now you can have a huge leap forward in email:[url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca] get the new Yahoo! Mail.[/url]  [quote][b]

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