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rexjan(at)bigpond.com
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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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Dave,
I guess we shouldn't critisize but my concerns are that he is dragging that tail across the rough stuff for a very long time and due to postings of broken tail wheels etc I think it's cause to worry. Plus he might not always have that much space to get airborne.
Fair enough you have also flown the plane and had the same problem so let's blame the plane rather than the pilot.
So what is the problem. I'm no expert but it would seem to me he might have his C of G too far back. ie:- too much weight on the tail. Another possibiitty is not enough down elevator. Perhaps he has both problems. However while he has the tail down dragging like that that is slowing him down as is pushing that wing through the air at that angle of attack, so hence the very long time to get airborne and all that torture to the back end.
You say it climbs well once airborn. Well I guess both those problems would not effect climb in fact they might help. However for the sake of the tailwheel assembly and rear frame I do think it would be in his best interests to sort the problem. Neither aft C of G or down elevator travel should take much fixing. Maybe someone has adjusted elevator control to improve flair authority at the cost of down elevator. However gap sealing is a better answer. I need to pull my stick right back hard into the seat cushion but if I do that she lands just perfect, dare I say in a 3 point attitude !
Rex.
Time: 06:14:24 PM PST US
From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>
Subject: Re: Video
Rex,
I have flown that Avid and it won't come off nearly as quick as my
Kitfox or the Kitfox 1 in video. Why? I have no idea but it climbs
real well one off the ground.
Dave
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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I recently broke the (12-year-old) 2-leaf tailwheel spring on my Model
IV, after about 150 hours on the plane. When the main leaf breaks on
the 2-leaf'er you're going to be grounded for awhile. Fortunately I had
a spare main and was flying again in just about an hour. I got the
newly designed 3-leaf spring, which incorporates 2 main leaves, and
you'd have to have pretty crappy luck to break both of them at the same
time. John and Debra McBean sell the 3-leaf spring at the new Kitfox
Aircraft LLC.
Now before anybody puts this incident together with the ongoing
"3-pointers vs. wheelers" thread, I don't wanna hear it! : ) (that's a
smiley, folks)
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
On Thursday, October 12, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Dave wrote:
| Quote: | Rex, I have only a few flights in that Avid and do not remember it
too well but I will say that it does have a heavier Tail than my
Kitfox and I think C of G might be differnt . AS far as elevator I
think it all been measured within specs and it does have the gaps
sealed.
I think the Avid should come off quicker as well but he fairly new to
that Avid just a month or two ago and is still getting used to it. I
know it flys well and it a bit slower than my Kitfox by a few mph
only but it might climb better. I think the next few months will
tell the tale as well. I know he would like it to get airbourne
quicke too and most likely will. I gonna get him out in the next few
weeks and so he can get a few hours of slow flight to get a better
feel for it and that should help alot as well I think.
As far as breaking tailsprings I don't know what the worrry is. I have
broke a few as well over the years but that is from alot of off field
use and plus i hammer my tailwheel lots on takeoffs too  I use
the KISS theory ( KEEP IT SIMPLE SILLY) I use 2 leaf homemade
spring and a solid 6 inch wheel with no troubles. Worst case if you
break a spring is you put a hole in your rudder.
Dave
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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The CG may be ok and still have the weight fooled up. As any canoeist will tell you the best place to have your weight is close to the centre of the canoe... keep the ends light.
My father built a plane that required the battery be mounted almost right over the tail wheel. I dirty double dog dare any one to keep a spring on that tail wheel! what my father and others had forgotten to take into consideration was the inertia of that weight in the tail. It is not only the balance of the plane that needs to be considered but also the inertia of Twenty ( or however many ) pounds of lead in the tail that once it starts going down will want continue going down.
I think it's better to have 50 lb. parked behind the seats than have twenty lb. over the tail wheel. I certainly wouldn't have any weight further back than half the distance form the trailing edge of the wing to the tail.
Noel [quote]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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torgemor(at)online.no
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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Excellent Noel,
Also to mention, to much mass (inertia) in the tail can change an
aircraft’s performance dramatically, I.E. a spin is not possible to exit
due to high tail inertia. Simply because there's not enough "tail surface"
to cope with such a high energy.
As a builder we can keep most of the "mass" in the middle.
This is something very important to consider, if you plan to use the
battery as a "counterweight". Move "anything else" slightly before the
battery is right over the tail wheel.
Keep up the good work.
Torgeir.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:44:39 +0200, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
wrote:
[quote] The CG may be ok and still have the weight fooled up. As any canoeist
will
tell you the best place to have your weight is close to the centre of the
canoe... keep the ends light.
My father built a plane that required the battery be mounted almost right
over the tail wheel. I dirty double dog dare any one to keep a spring on
that tail wheel! what my father and others had forgotten to take into
consideration was the inertia of that weight in the tail. It is not only
the balance of the plane that needs to be considered but also the
inertia of
Twenty ( or however many ) pounds of lead in the tail that once it
starts
going down will want continue going down.
I think it's better to have 50 lb. parked behind the seats than have
twenty
lb. over the tail wheel. I certainly wouldn't have any weight further
back
than half the distance form the trailing edge of the wing to the tail.
Noel
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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I'd hate to have a battery mounted right over the (bouncy?) tailwheel,
unless it was a gel-cell maybe?
Lynn
On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 05:44 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
| Quote: | The CG may be ok and still have the weight fooled up. As any canoeist
will tell you the best place to have your weight is close to the
centre of the canoe... keep the ends light.
My father built a plane that required the battery be mounted almost
right over the tail wheel. I dirty double dog dare any one to keep a
spring on that tail wheel! what my father and others had forgotten to
take into consideration was the inertia of that weight in the tail.
It is not only the balance of the plane that needs to be considered
but also the inertia of Twenty ( or however many ) pounds of lead in
the tail that once it starts going down will want continue going down.
I think it's better to have 50 lb. parked behind the seats than have
twenty lb. over the tail wheel. I certainly wouldn't have any weight
further back than half the distance form the trailing edge of the wing
to the tail.
Noel
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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The plane my father built was a Volmer Jensen VJ22 Sportsman. Through the
jigs and reels he ended up with a 125 Hp Lycoming that came out of a
Tripacer that didn't make it across the big pond. The tower he had welded
up for the engine didn't take into consideration the different CG for the
tractor as opposed to the pusher originally designed. I always said that
pane would have handled a lot better if the engine were 9" further back and
the battery was 6' further forward.
They don't print the kind of money to get me to spin that plane.
Noel
[quote] --
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Michel
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Getting tail wheel up. |
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On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:39 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
| Quote: | I.E. a spin is not possible to exit due to high tail inertia. Simply
because there's not enough "tail surface" to cope with such a high
energy.
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Yes and that's why I opted for the Jabiru in my model 3, Torgeir. A
Rotax 912 would have moved my CG too much forward and to compensate it,
I would have had to put lead in the tail, something that goes against
all logic.
Incidentally, when making my Kitfox in the X-Plane flight simulator, I
tried to simulate "mass in the tail" to see how it would affect the
ground handling and more specially, the ground loop. I did it by
creating a fictive fuel tanks (invisible in the simulator, but defined
by a x,y,z position and a mass) in the tail.
At a later occasion, I met the creator of the simulator and told him
that a distribution of the mass at the extremities of the fuselage
didn't influence the ground loop. To which he answered: "No, it will
rather make the plane less prone to start one, but once started, it
will be difficult to stop it. Think of a gyroscope construction!"
Indeed, it makes sense.
Cheers,
Michel
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