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lyleedda(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

The following only relates to RVs because the theme is about  airplanes....sorry.  As to the story about the Cirrus pranging into a  building and all the moaning by journalists about the pilot, in general, the  journalists of all stripes, TV, print, radio....make me want to puke. Extra,  Extra TV show comes on with photos about " Celeb Pilots " who bought the farm,  like Denver, Kennedy, Ricky Nelson !!!! wow, what a loss..and what that has to  do with the New York thing beats me....so a baseball guy becomes a statistic of  Darwin's Law....gee....why so little said about his pax who also left a wife and  child ?

 Why no similar press about Scott Crossfield ( wha'...who  he  ??? )  who was lost recently in a weather related tragedy and who  contributed light years more value to knowledge and aviation and space lore than  a guy who merely tosses a ball ?

 This fixation that a life lost is only worth mucho press if  they are a sport bum or celeb is lost on me....I mean, how many people actually  knew the guys name until the discovery that he was a Yankee ?

    Worse still, you can bet there is going to be a  lot more " expert " pronunciations that all those small airplanes and pilots are  just nearly as bad a threat as terrorists are to the safety of the  public.

 What I really love most is when the TV head declares with  Basset Hound eyes is " we are awaiting to hear the cause of the crash ( of  whatever airplane )" , when it is evident that the airplane crashed because it  was pointed forthwith into a granite wall !!!

 Or better still..." the vehicle left the road ".. ( all by  itself just because it wanted to )..

 do not archive

 Lyle.

   [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

// What I really love most is when the TV  head declares with Basset Hound eyes is " we are awaiting to hear the cause of  the crash ( of whatever airplane )" , when it is evident that the airplane  crashed because it was pointed forthwith into a granite wall !!!

  

 Ah,  so the cause, say, of the Challenger accident is because it re-entered the  atmosphere? (g)

  

 One  of my favorite lines from stories about crashes is, "witnesses said the plane  was flying low shortly before the crash." Ya  think?????

  

  

 Do  not archive

  

 Bob  (Journalist)

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

mark(at)macomb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

I recall hearing that a fire chief at the crash scene declared "good 

thing the plane's fuel tanks were empty or there would have been a big 

fire."

MG

Somebody already declared Do Not Archive



Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    // What I really love most is when the TV head declares with Basset 

 Hound eyes is " we are awaiting to hear the cause of the crash ( of 

 whatever airplane )" , when it is evident that the airplane crashed 

 because it was pointed forthwith into a granite wall !!!

 **** 

 *Ah, so the cause, say, of the Challenger accident is because it 

 re-entered the atmosphere? (g)*

 ** 

 *One of my favorite lines from stories about crashes is, "witnesses said 

 the plane was flying low shortly before the crash." Ya think?????*

 ** 

 ** 

 *Do not archive*

 ** 

 *Bob (Journalist)*

 

 *

 

 

 *

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


	




--

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

At 07:14 PM 10/13/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   // What I really love most is when the TV head declares with Basset Hound eyes is " we are awaiting to hear the cause of the crash ( of whatever airplane )" , when it is evident that the airplane crashed because it was pointed forthwith into a granite wall !!!

  

 Ah, so the cause, say, of the Challenger accident is because it re-entered the atmosphere? (g)

  

 Bob (Journalist)

 	


 Substitute Columbia for Challenger.  Challenger broke up during ascent due 

 to a problem with an SRB seal.   Columbia broke up during re-entry due

 to damage from a strike from an object from the external tank shortly after

 lift-off.



 Ron Lee



 Do not archive    [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

// Substitute Columbia for Challenger.   Challenger broke up during ascent due 

to a problem with an SRB seal 

  

 Of  course. Stupid of me, which gives away what I do for a living.  (g)

 I've  gotta invent the next thing to sell to Google and get out of this  business.

  

 Do not  archive

  

 BC

  

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

 	  Quote: 	
		   ... Extra, Extra TV show comes on with photos about " Celeb Pilots " 

 who bought the farm, like Denver, Kennedy, Ricky Nelson !!!! wow, what a 

 loss..and what that has to do with the New York thing beats me....so a 

 baseball guy becomes a statistic of Darwin's Law....gee....why so little 

 said about his pax who also left a wife and child ?


	


I think many people have the illusion that the news media is some kind 

of public service, or that they have some kind of standard to uphold. 

They don't.  TV news is a trick to try to get you to watch the 

commercials - nothing more.  If people don't watch, they go out of 

business, so they put on stuff that they think a lot of people will 

watch - nothing more, nothing less.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think many people have the illusion that the news media is 

 some kind 

 of public service, or that they have some kind of standard to uphold. 

 They don't.  TV news is a trick to try to get you to watch the 

 commercials - nothing more.  If people don't watch, they go out of 

 business, so they put on stuff that they think a lot of people will 

 watch - nothing more, nothing less.


	


You've cmbined so many generalities here, Mickey. News media and TV news are

not necessarily the same thing.  I agree that TV is pretty ratings based

stuff. I just saw a study that the average amount of time in a newscast

spent on election year issues is 35 seconds. Not good especially in an,

ummm, election year.  To the etent they're in the business to make money,

you're right, they're not a public service. They want to make money. Same as

we all do, I guess, but it's illogical for anyone to expect any0one even

here on this board to stop making money to perform some public service for

me.



There used to be a requirement and regulation about news in the electronic

media but that went away in our efforts to deregulate. Good or bad? You

decide.



However there's more to the "news media" than TV news and it's there I

disagree with the sweeping generalization. There are thousands of good

journalists out there who go to work every day to write a factual and

complete story. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail but almost

always they have a sense of duty to tell a story on behalf of the reader.



I missed by kid's 4th birthday (working halfway across the country) and my

20th anniversary (Wellstone crash) for no other reason than to tell the

story. I didn't make any more money from it, my employer didn't make any

more money from it. In fact, my employer didn't even tell me to do it.  I'll

certainly hold my work on the Wellstone story (I think the nav beacon was

involved in the disorientation because the FAA/NTSB testing after the flight

showed abnormalities. The government made the pilots fly it until it didn't,

for one thing) up against idiots like Prof. James Fetzer any day)



There are a LOT of journalists with a sense of purpose and mission to

telling the story right. Heck, I ripped my editors and reporters (some of

whom are not senior to me) for ignoring half the stuff I told them Thursday

about where to go on the Cirrus story (Cirrus is based in this state). That

didn't go over well and if I end up losing my job for rocking the boat --

always a possibility -- it's not because I stand to gain personally, but

because I think we do have a duty to report things accurately and fairly.



Does everyone in the business? I'd say not. But are there a ton who do?

Acidentally.



BTW, one of them was Daniel Pearl, who I knew from my time in the Berkshires

when he covered small city government in North Adams. He always had a sense

of duty to the story. It got him killed.



Do not archive.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   However there's more to the "news media" than TV news and it's there I

 disagree with the sweeping generalization. There are thousands of good

 journalists out there who go to work every day to write a factual and

 complete story. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail but almost

 always they have a sense of duty to tell a story on behalf of the reader.


	


I agree 100%.  The news people that I know are all trying to do the best 

job they can with the resources they are given.  I in no way intended to 

disparage any of these committed, hard working people.



My point was that "news" is a business, and with very few exceptions, 

the goal is to make money, not to inform people.  We should not rely 

exclusively on corporate news organizations for our information, or we 

won't be well informed.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 My point was that "news" is a business, and with very few exceptions, 

 the goal is to make money, not to inform people.  We should not rely 

 exclusively on corporate news organizations for our 

 information, or we 

 won't be well informed.

 


	


My defense notwithstanding, there is a factor in newsroom that I think is

often at play. Arrogance. For example, in the case I was talking about, I

actually had two editors and a reporter in a meeting with me yesterday after

I raised concerns about this story

(http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/10/12/cirrusreacts/).  



At one point, I actually had three people who've never even been in a small

plane... Let alone flown one, or even kept up to speed on aviation issues,

lecturing me on piloting and matters of transition training etc.



THAT is the dirty little secret -- that's not that much of a secret -- in

the nation's newsrooms: the only perspetive from which knowledgd can be

assessed is from the reporter and editor's knowledge. The public, or any

other editor or reporter, be damned.



There's pushback on this with the  introduction of "public insight

journalism" (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/publicinsightjournalism/),

which guys like Jeff Jarvis and Dan Gilmore have championed, but it's doomed

to failure until newsrooms are disinfected of this arrogance and I don't see

that happening.



At the same time, you've got guys like Phil Boyer who's style of leadership

is a "circle the wagons" approach, creating an us vs. them mentality (I call

this the "Don Cherry method of managing. He was an old Boston Bruins coach I

liked). You've got the arrogance of newsrooms that does essentially the same

thing. And then there's the folks in the middle who find the only thing they

can do is choose one or the other, because there's no infrastruture in place

(i.e. mindset) to get the two sides together.  



I often talk about the need for pilots to be educators, rather than mockers

and it is usually met witih derision as folks choose what camp to get into.

Of course it didn't help yesterday that Richard L. Collins apparently told

one of our reporters that there was no correlation between pilots who

quickly transition to a Cirrus being involved in an accident, and any othr

pilot.



I don't remember his past writings say that, but then when I wen thome last

night, there was a new issue of Flying Magazine and Collins wrote, "One

other note on accident reports. Our son, Richard, is also a student of

aviation. He has been looking at the correlation between accidnts and the

length of time the pilot has owned the airplane. Quite frequently, the

airplane and the pilot have just gotten together."



Of course, Collins has made no secret of his dislike for the media, so it's

entirely possible that by suggesting one thing on Thurday to a reporter, and

writing another thing to pilots on Friday, he was just blowing off the

reporter. But on the one hand, you can't legitimately complain that the

media doesn't know what it's doing, and then ignore the opportunities to

help, or -- at worst -- deliberately tell them something that contradicts

yourself.



In many caes, the reporter is in a bind between people who say two things. 



And we know, for instance, that there is no conclusive proof to make a

defnitive statement about, in this case, low time pilots flying Cirrus.

There is only the anecdotal. So if you wished to write about the issue (and

I probably will in the next RV Builder's Hotline), you might have Mac

McLellan saying -- as he did -- that a Cirrus SR20 is a fine training

aricraft (which it may well be), and Phil Greenspun who says, "Cirrus has

marketed its airplanes to generic rich guys (i.e., nonpilots) with ads in

generic rich guy magazines, a strategy that Beech, Cessna, and Piper pursued

in the 1970s but gave up when airplanes went out of mass production and

yuppies decided that flying themselves around was too dangerous. Cirrus's

advertising stresses the enhanced safety provided by the airframe parachute

and the computer screens showing the airplane's position relative to

airports, mountains, weather, etc. The combination of novice pilots and a

fast airplane has resulted in a mournful accident record that is reflected

in high insurance rates and recurrent training requirements similar to what

you'd find on a twin-engine plane or pressurized single."



The problem journalists make is they think they have to choose one or the

other, and then make the story about that conclusion.



On stories like this, their REAL job is just to present the various and

diverse arguments to you, and let it be your problem to decide.



There are days I'd love to get out of the business. Thursday and Friday were

the most recent two.



If I only knew how to do something else.



Bob

Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

I have listened to the news reports and am amazed how many times I heard 

that the "engineS were running" or the "propellerS" have been located & are 

being sent for further examination. There were not multiple engines or 

propellers but on the third day after the accident I again saw an info babe 

babbling on about something to which she has no knowledge or understanding. 

Passing on misinformation from a misinformed source.  Do Not Archive these 

soapbox ravings.  KABONG



---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

I heard the 'engines' thing too. But you know where it came from?. The NTSB

briefer on Thursday night. I was watching it and I couldn't believe it when

she said it. She also referred to finding two propellors. Presumably she

meant to say propellor blades.



The day the Joe Mauer won the batting title ahead of Derek Jeter (GEE tur),

I heard the local blow-dry refer to him as Derek Jetter. So it's not just

airplanes. (g)



Do not archive. 



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

JOHN STARN wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have listened to the news reports and am amazed how many times I 

 heard that the "engineS were running" or the "propellerS" have been 

 located & are being sent for further examination. There were not 

 multiple engines or propellers but on the third day after the accident 

 I again saw an info babe babbling on about something to which she has 

 no knowledge or understanding. Passing on misinformation from a 

 misinformed source.  Do Not Archive these soapbox ravings.  KABONG


	




I saw the segment. If I heard the intro correctly, she was the 

spokesperson for the NTSB. She sounded like she was reading 'scene of 

the accident' boilerplate copy. Note that the rest of the statement was 

'I will now take any of your questions.'



Don't be surprised if the final report says something like, 'Cause of 

accident: Pilot failed to maintain control after the left aileron 

departed the a/c.'



Charlie

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Yep. Just 'cause you have a title from the NTSB & look good on TV does not 

mean you know "Jack.....t" about airplanes and/or flying. Take a look at the 

"pilots" we've had as the head of the FAA for the past two decades. NADA. 

Do Not Archive.   KABONG



---

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

, 'Cause of  accident: Pilot failed to maintain control after the left 

aileron

 	  Quote: 	
		   departed the a/c.'



 Charlie


	


And the NTSB spokesperson will answer the reporters question.

"What is a left aileron ?"

"I think it's the control thingie that left".



Do Not Archive  KABONG

mark(at)macomb.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Ever notice that news reports covering something you know a lot about 

always contain glaring errors? Could one conclude that ALL news reports 

contain errors as well?



I noticed the plural engine and propeller business too. Last I knew 

Cirrus wasn't making a twin. Also, they the data and cockpit voice 

recorder were not installed on this plane.



mg



JOHN STARN wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I have listened to the news reports and am amazed how many times I heard 

 that the "engineS were running" or the "propellerS" have been located & 

 are being sent for further examination. There were not multiple engines 

 or propellers but on the third day after the accident I again saw an 

 info babe babbling on about something to which she has no knowledge or 

 understanding. Passing on misinformation from a misinformed source.  Do 

 Not Archive these soapbox ravings.  KABONG

 

 ---

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Having been Det. Sgt. for Fontana PD & it's "spokesman" I can tell you very 

little of what I told the news media EVER can out the same way it went in. 

Call it "journalistic license", embellishment, outright fabrications or 

bald-faced lies if it spices up their story it gets included. During a 

homicide investigation, "NO, YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW" was the best way handle 

the press.

Side bar...Mark are you related to the late GREAT Floyd Grieve ?, FBO, CFI 

out of Flabob. ? ?      KABONG  Do Not Archive



---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Ouch. Where's the list to post allegations about dirty cops? Generalizations

-- like the one I just made --  are usually inaccurate; an irony in a thread

that's about the need for accuracy. Perhaps we should keep the door open,

just a crack, that while we criticize news people who don't know about

aviation... There are also aviators who don't really know that much about

the news business.

BTW, I looked up the pedigree of the NTSB "spokeswoman" we were talking

about earlier. It turns out she wasn't a spokeswoman, she's a board member.

She doesn't have a pilots license and specializes in child safety

restraints, or something like that. Has a Class 2 bus and truck license and

took a class to learn how to drive a motorcycle.



The last NTSB board member with an engineering or aviation background quit

in 2005. Stupidly -- but predictably -- the board of 5 has to be split

according to political party. So there's 3 Republicans and 2 Democrats.

Deborah Hersman is the Democrat. The law that created NTSB says, "At least

three members shall be appointed on the basis of technical qualification,

professional standing, and demonstrated knowledge in accident

reconstruction, safety engineering, human factors, transportation safety, or

transportation regulation." So why aren't there any? Because the current

president, and the pols that pull the strings -- both Dems and Republicans

-- didn't feel like adhering to the statute.



Oh, and I tracked down a couple of complaints against journalists in the way

the story was reported the other night. Oddly enough, one of the people

criticized -- the CNN dude -- is a pilot... And owner of a Cirrus S20. I

don't know what to make of that.



Anyway, the circle-the-wagons mentality is going to kill general aviation.

As long as one thinks of the other as the enemy. 



All of these problems are opportunities. If people own a plane, and haven't

called someone at the local rag and offered to take 'em up for a ride and

explain how GA works, those folks are part of the problem, AND part of the

solution. 



Every time there's a crash, the results are predictable. The media screws it

up, the bulletin boards are rife with "journalists are stupid morons"

messages, and nothing changes. GA airports are still closing, and airspace

is getting more restricted.



One of these days, we aviators have got to recognize our responsibility to

change the tone and change the results.



Otherwise, see you back here after the next crash.



Do not archive 



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Do Not Archive.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ouch. Where's the list to post allegations about dirty cops? .<

'round these here parts it's called the Daily (de)Press(ed) & the Los 
	


Angeles Times.



 	  Quote: 	
		   BTW, I looked up the pedigree of the NTSB "spokeswoman" we were talking 

 about earlier. It turns out she wasn't a spokeswoman, she's a board 

 member.

 She doesn't have a pilots license and specializes in child safety

 restraints, or something like that. Has a Class 2 bus and truck license 

 and  took a class to learn how to drive a motorcycle.



  The law that created NTSB says, "At least

 three members shall be appointed on the basis of technical qualification,

 professional standing, and demonstrated knowledge in accident

 reconstruction, safety engineering, human factors, transportation safety, 

 or transportation regulation."


	


Dang I knew there was a job out there alook'en fer me.

BA in Criminal Justice, 11 POST (Peace Officers Standards & Training) 

certificates, help build an HRII, EAA tech counselor, flying since 1963, 

investigated too many TC's to count, been "riding" motorcycles since 1959 

(dirt & touring) had a class 3 driver license for 15 years. 20 years as a 

licensed contractor and hold a teaching certificate and boy am I 

opinionated. ALL IN JEST GUYS.......but all the above is true too.

KABONG (GBA & GWB)

lm4(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

Bob,

	I tried this about a year ago. 

Sitting at the table of a restaurant, after a wake, with a 

producer of Channel 10 T.V. in Rochester N.Y.  The 

subject of aviation came up and during the conversation 

I asked Ed what my chances were of educating the entire 

medea within the county. That this would be Chapter 44 

of the EAA teaching the media about G.A. and the 

caracteristics of a plane in flight so as to demonstrate to 

them what a stall was. And that it was not an engine failure.

	Ed took about 30 seconds to think about it and then 

replied "You haven't got a snowball's chance in hell."

That was not the reply I had expected. And when I asked 

how he could be so sure he replied "Because the turn 

over rate is 50%". 

	So while some of us want to make a difference we 

are faced with the problem of How?



Larry Mac Donald

lm4(at)juno.com

Rochester N.Y.

Do not achcive



 

 	  Quote: 	
		   One of these days, we aviators have got to recognize our 

 responsibility to

 change the tone and change the results.

 

 Otherwise, see you back here after the next crash.

 

 Do not archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Cirrus & journalists

One at a time. Same as everything else. You don't have to convince 300

million people, say, of the value of your local airport. You only have to

convince the folks that live in your town.  So, if 3 new reporters come in

next year, give 'em 3 more rides.



Larry, it's the same as building an RV (hey, the required RV content!),

you're building a bunch of small parts that eventually become one part. 



Think about it. Why are we flying Young Eagles? Not only to get them into

flying, but to help them understand flying. But they're -- on average --

6-10 years away from having any direct impact. Do we have that much time? 



Personally, I think the EAA has missed the mark by not starting an Old

Eagles program.



It makes so much sense, it's scary.



Bob



Do not archive

--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

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