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rvfltd(at)televar.com
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: bureaucrats |
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Roger, and all,
I raised this point two years ago, and was poo hoo'ed with comments that ranged from "his BS meter has pegged" to "Gee whiz, isn't it nice that ol Doug is worried about us" (smirk, wink). So I backed off and decided to cover my own butt and let it alone. But after reading your article maybe it needs to be said again: Our problem is not quite the same, with the few radium dials that remain after "Americanization", the distance from the glass face and the amount of "emissions" measured when sitting in the cockpit (of the CJ6) both fall within the acceptable limits. Instrument dials aside, our problem may be very much worse.
The fact is that most all of the early CJ's, Yak 18's, and I am sure some 50's and maybe even 52's used radium on the throttle handles. This material is very soft and is easily eroded by sweaty hands and can easily find it's way into the body. Ever wiped the sweat off your brow or ate a sandwich in flight? Make you wonder?, it should. My suggestion is the same now as it was then, GET YOUR AIRCRAFT CHECKED WITH A GEIGER COUNTER. If it's hot, remove the handles, submerge them in water, wear long rubber gloves, remove all the "white stuff" from the groves on the knobs, dispose of the gloves, brushes, water and white stuff in the "proper manner", recheck the handles and re clean if necessary. Or throw them away ("in the proper manner") and buy the late model ones that are free of radium. If this ever does becomes an issue and your aircraft is checked you will be good to go. But if you do not then, well who knows. One last thing to consider, just because your aircraft is a later model doesn't mean much, handles and knobs are interchangeable from year one and they all look the same. Get it checked and then you will know. If enough guys want to get it done I'll try to make arrangements to have someone or at least the equipment on site at ARS to do the job. I have a very good friend who is a Yak 18, and Yak 52 owner and also tech rep for a atomic facilities repair outfit and he just might loan us the proper tools to do the job.
As before, don't kill the messenger, I didn't invent the issue, I'm simply trying to quietly find a answer and head off a potential problem and I don't think sticking our heads in the sand and treating it like it never happened is the answer. In my mind I honestly believe the threat from the bureaucrats is 100 times more of a risk to us than the threat from any radium that may or may not be in your aircraft. But if they ever do check and find just one it may give them the impetus to continue on.
As usual, some of your mileage may vary, it always does. And I fully expect long oratories from all the pundants out there, who will beat the issue to death and the final outcome will be confusion and the net result will be that very few if any will do anything about it. Frustrated???? Not me!! Clean of all radium on my 1956 Yak 18 / CJ5 control knobs?, you bet!
This will be my only "on list" post on the topic.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
[quote] --
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: bureaucrats |
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doug sapp wrote:
| Quote: | Roger, and all,
I raised this point two years ago, and was poo hoo'ed with comments that
ranged from "his BS meter has pegged" to "Gee whiz, isn't it nice that
ol Doug is worried about us" (smirk, wink). So I backed off and decided
to cover my own butt and let it alone. But after reading your article
maybe it needs to be said again: Our problem is not quite the same,
with the few radium dials that remain after "Americanization", the
distance from the glass face and the amount of "emissions" measured when
sitting in the cockpit (of the CJ6) both fall within the acceptable
limits. Instrument dials aside, our problem may be very much worse.
|
I don't think we received the original article. Roger, could you please
repost or summarize.
I agree with Doug; Radium on the instrument faces is a non-issue, EPA
not withstanding. I have had instrument shops refuse to overhaul gauges
for me because they detected radioactive material on the dials. Many
older WW-II vintage gauges that found their way into post WWII spam cans
were like this. I found "radioactive" instruments in my Comanche and my
Clipper. Mostly this was just annoying because, in one case, I really
wanted to keep the instrument.
I am less in agreement with Doug on the handles as a minuscule amount
(read "no threat") of radioactive material will make a Geiger counter go
nuts. You have to not just detect the material but also measure exactly
how much radiation you are getting with a calibrated meter at a
calibrated distance. That will tell you how much of the material is
actually present, presuming you know what kind of material it is.
Could it be a health hazard? Yes. Is it a health hazard? Don't know. We
are exposed to radiation every day -- from cosmic rays to background
radiation from the soil and building materials in our houses (granite
usually surprises people). OTOH, Doug's approach is the safest way to
deal with it.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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gbvfx(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: bureaucrats |
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"In my mind I honestly believe the threat from the bureaucrats is 100 times
more of a risk to us than the threat from any radium that may or may not be
in your aircraft"
That is so true! At the Museum of Flight in Scotland, the
bureaucrats/health & safety stopped the very popular Open Cockpit day. This
event, as the name suggests, involved opening the cockpits of the less
accessible and more unusual aircraft for ONE day a year. Each person had
probably a maximum of 5 minutes in each cockpit, but because some of the
instruments registered on the H&S official's geiger counter, that was the
event shut down. Ignore the facts of living in a society that breathes in
exhaust fumes daily and eats food filled with crappy chemicals, etc, etc. I
think this epitomises an example of pc gone mad.
Once some pc bureaucrat gets it into their head that your plane is unsafe,
you're options are very few.
Good luck
Janet
Ph: 920 232 9238
email: gbvfx(at)hotmail.com
[quote]From: "doug sapp" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
Reply-To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
To: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net>, "Yak list"
<yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: bureaucrats
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:53:28 -0800
Roger, and all,
I raised this point two years ago, and was poo hoo'ed with comments that
ranged from "his BS meter has pegged" to "Gee whiz, isn't it nice that ol
Doug is worried about us" (smirk, wink). So I backed off and decided to
cover my own butt and let it alone. But after reading your article maybe
it needs to be said again: Our problem is not quite the same, with the
few radium dials that remain after "Americanization", the distance from the
glass face and the amount of "emissions" measured when sitting in the
cockpit (of the CJ6) both fall within the acceptable limits. Instrument
dials aside, our problem may be very much worse.
The fact is that most all of the early CJ's, Yak 18's, and I am sure some
50's and maybe even 52's used radium on the throttle handles. This
material is very soft and is easily eroded by sweaty hands and can easily
find it's way into the body. Ever wiped the sweat off your brow or ate a
sandwich in flight? Make you wonder?, it should. My suggestion is the
same now as it was then, GET YOUR AIRCRAFT CHECKED WITH A GEIGER COUNTER.
If it's hot, remove the handles, submerge them in water, wear long rubber
gloves, remove all the "white stuff" from the groves on the knobs, dispose
of the gloves, brushes, water and white stuff in the "proper manner",
recheck the handles and re clean if necessary. Or throw them away ("in the
proper manner") and buy the late model ones that are free of radium. If
this ever does becomes an issue and your aircraft is checked you will be
good to go. But if you do not then, well who knows. One last thing to
consider, just because your aircraft is a later model doesn't mean much,
handles and knobs are interchangeable from year one and they all look the
same. Get it checked and then you will know. If enough guys want to get
it done I'll try to make arrangements to have someone or at least the
equipment on site at ARS to do the job. I have a very good friend who is a
Yak 18, and Yak 52 owner and also tech rep for a atomic facilities repair
outfit and he just might loan us the proper tools to do the job.
As before, don't kill the messenger, I didn't invent the issue, I'm simply
trying to quietly find a answer and head off a potential problem and I
don't think sticking our heads in the sand and treating it like it never
happened is the answer. In my mind I honestly believe the threat from the
bureaucrats is 100 times more of a risk to us than the threat from any
radium that may or may not be in your aircraft. But if they ever do check
and find just one it may give them the impetus to continue on.
As usual, some of your mileage may vary, it always does. And I fully
expect long oratories from all the pundants out there, who will beat the
issue to death and the final outcome will be confusion and the net result
will be that very few if any will do anything about it. Frustrated????
Not me!! Clean of all radium on my 1956 Yak 18 / CJ5 control knobs?, you
bet!
This will be my only "on list" post on the topic.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
--
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f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: bureaucrats |
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Hello Brian,
The original item that I forwarded to Doug (and others) was a column from the "AVweb Flash", an online aviation newsletter. I don't seem to be able to forward the actual column very successfully, however I have included a hyperlink to that page. I will include that hyperlink with this message.
The column in question concerns a fellow from whom I bought some "6 o'clock" altimeters for the first two Yak 52's that I brought into the U.S. back in 1999. I recently tried to buy a pair of them from him for a 52 that I have now as my personal "keeper". He had nothing, whereas in the past, he had tens of thousands of vintage instruments of all kinds.
This column from AVweb tells the horrifying story of what happened to him and his wonderful treasure of old instruments. It does involve radium containing faces...but that issue becomes almost incidental to the tale. This story is about our state and federal bureaucracies truly run amok.
I think that the radium exposure that we have to face due to our airplanes is probably not a serious health issue. Radium exposure (radon) has become, however, a serious issue and the most egregious example, of which I am aware, of unwarranted government intrusion into ordinary citizens lives.
I am encouraging everybody with whom I enteract to read the column carefully. I would hope that at some point that we can engender an ordinary citizen culture of "intolerance of government" that might throttle this type of thing....even just a bit. Probably merely a wispy dream...but we should do what we can.
Best regards,
Roger
The link is: http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191377-1.html
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:24 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
| Quote: | doug sapp wrote:
| Quote: | Roger, and all,
I raised this point two years ago, and was poo hoo'ed with comments that
ranged from "his BS meter has pegged" to "Gee whiz, isn't it nice that
ol Doug is worried about us" (smirk, wink). So I backed off and decided
to cover my own butt and let it alone. But after reading your article
maybe it needs to be said again: Our problem is not quite the same,
with the few radium dials that remain after "Americanization", the
distance from the glass face and the amount of "emissions" measured when
sitting in the cockpit (of the CJ6) both fall within the acceptable
limits. Instrument dials aside, our problem may be very much worse.
|
I don't think we received the original article. Roger, could you please
repost or summarize.
I agree with Doug; Radium on the instrument faces is a non-issue, EPA
not withstanding. I have had instrument shops refuse to overhaul gauges
for me because they detected radioactive material on the dials. Many
older WW-II vintage gauges that found their way into post WWII spam cans
were like this. I found "radioactive" instruments in my Comanche and my
Clipper. Mostly this was just annoying because, in one case, I really
wanted to keep the instrument.
I am less in agreement with Doug on the handles as a minuscule amount
(read "no threat") of radioactive material will make a Geiger counter go
nuts. You have to not just detect the material but also measure exactly
how much radiation you are getting with a calibrated meter at a
calibrated distance. That will tell you how much of the material is
actually present, presuming you know what kind of material it is.
Could it be a health hazard? Yes. Is it a health hazard? Don't know. We
are exposed to radiation every day -- from cosmic rays to background
radiation from the soil and building materials in our houses (granite
usually surprises people). OTOH, Doug's approach is the safest way to
deal with it.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
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a35plt(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: bureaucrats |
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I was dismayed at the Imperial war museum in London
that the Avro Lancaster bomber nose section has a
large and gaudy "Radiation" sign bolted to it.
Unneccesary further damage to the airplane, plus it
defeats any hope of taking a good picture of the
exhibit.
-Robert Starnes
--- Janet Davidson <gbvfx(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
<gbvfx(at)hotmail.com>
"In my mind I honestly believe the threat from the
bureaucrats is 100 times
more of a risk to us than the threat from any radium
that may or may not be
in your aircraft"
That is so true! At the Museum of Flight in
Scotland, the
bureaucrats/health & safety stopped the very popular
Open Cockpit day. This
event, as the name suggests, involved opening the
cockpits of the less
accessible and more unusual aircraft for ONE day a
year. Each person had
probably a maximum of 5 minutes in each cockpit, but
because some of the
instruments registered on the H&S official's geiger
counter, that was the
event shut down. Ignore the facts of living in a
society that breathes in
exhaust fumes daily and eats food filled with crappy
chemicals, etc, etc. I
think this epitomises an example of pc gone mad.
Once some pc bureaucrat gets it into their head that
your plane is unsafe,
you're options are very few.
Good luck
Janet
Ph: 920 232 9238
email: gbvfx(at)hotmail.com
>From: "doug sapp" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>
>Reply-To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>To: "Roger Baker" <f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net>, "Yak list"
><yak-list(at)matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: bureaucrats
>Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:53:28 -0800
>
>Roger, and all,
>I raised this point two years ago, and was poo
hoo'ed with comments that
>ranged from "his BS meter has pegged" to "Gee whiz,
isn't it nice that ol
>Doug is worried about us" (smirk, wink). So I
backed off and decided to
>cover my own butt and let it alone. But after
reading your article maybe
>it needs to be said again: Our problem is not
quite the same, with the
>few radium dials that remain after
"Americanization", the distance from the
>glass face and the amount of "emissions" measured
when sitting in the
>cockpit (of the CJ6) both fall within the
acceptable limits. Instrument
>dials aside, our problem may be very much worse.
>
>The fact is that most all of the early CJ's, Yak
18's, and I am sure some
>50's and maybe even 52's used radium on the
throttle handles. This
>material is very soft and is easily eroded by
sweaty hands and can easily
>find it's way into the body. Ever wiped the sweat
off your brow or ate a
>sandwich in flight? Make you wonder?, it should.
My suggestion is the
>same now as it was then, GET YOUR AIRCRAFT CHECKED
WITH A GEIGER COUNTER.
>If it's hot, remove the handles, submerge them in
water, wear long rubber
>gloves, remove all the "white stuff" from the
groves on the knobs, dispose
>of the gloves, brushes, water and white stuff in
the "proper manner",
>recheck the handles and re clean if necessary. Or
throw them away ("in the
>proper manner") and buy the late model ones that
are free of radium. If
>this ever does becomes an issue and your aircraft
is checked you will be
>good to go. But if you do not then, well who
knows. One last thing to
>consider, just because your aircraft is a later
model doesn't mean much,
>handles and knobs are interchangeable from year one
and they all look the
>same. Get it checked and then you will know. If
enough guys want to get
>it done I'll try to make arrangements to have
someone or at least the
>equipment on site at ARS to do the job. I have a
very good friend who is a
>Yak 18, and Yak 52 owner and also tech rep for a
atomic facilities repair
>outfit and he just might loan us the proper tools
to do the job.
>
>As before, don't kill the messenger, I didn't
invent the issue, I'm simply
>trying to quietly find a answer and head off a
potential problem and I
>don't think sticking our heads in the sand and
treating it like it never
>happened is the answer. In my mind I honestly
believe the threat from the
>bureaucrats is 100 times more of a risk to us than
the threat from any
>radium that may or may not be in your aircraft.
But if they ever do check
>and find just one it may give them the impetus to
continue on.
>
>As usual, some of your mileage may vary, it always
does. And I fully
>expect long oratories from all the pundants out
there, who will beat the
>issue to death and the final outcome will be
confusion and the net result
>will be that very few if any will do anything about
it. Frustrated????
>Not me!! Clean of all radium on my 1956 Yak 18 /
CJ5 control knobs?, you
>bet!
>
>This will be my only "on list" post on the topic.
>
>
>Always Yakin,
>Doug Sapp
> --
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L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: bureaucrats |
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Doug offers good advice- in theory, but:
Holding a geiger counter up to the knob doesn't tell what you want to know. The amount of radioactivity on the handle cannot possibly affect your lifespan IF IT STAYS ON THE HANDLE. What you want to know is if it is staying there or flaking off. This is done by wiping the handle with a small cloth swab and then putting the swab in an instrument. This needs to be done by someone who knows what he is doing. If the cloth is clean then the radioactive material is still on the handle and you have no problem. If it is coming off, you should do something.
Something would be fix it all back in place (paint over it), replace the knob with one in good condition, and as a last resort remove the radioactivity. Removing is the last choice because those of you who aren't trained radiation workers (this will be roughly all of you?) will end up getting it all over yourself, gloves or not. This isn't going to make you keel over in the forseeable future, but it's better if you don't.
Radium in the amounts on instruments (or 100 times that amount) doesn't pose a significant hazard on your skin. It is quantifyably bad for you to get it in your mouth, nose, eyes or in a wound. It's worse to get it in your lungs, but that isn't going to make you keel over next year either. Cancer has a long latency period. Cigarettes cause cancer, but not in everyone and not very fast in anyone.
Water will not dissolve radium or the binder that it's in. You would need solvents or abrasives. The suggestion to dispose of the stuff in the "proper manner" is good advice. The " " I presume is one of those internet emoticons for wink, wink or nudge, nudge. A great many hazardous materials are less hazardous where they are than when you start messing with them. This includes your radium throttle, unless it's flaking off.
As for flight instruments, even if the radium is flaking off, it stays in the case, so there's no hazard unless you disassemble it.
>My suggestion is the same now as it was then, GET YOUR AIRCRAFT CHECKED WITH A GEIGER COUNTER. If >it's hot, remove the handles, submerge them in water, wear long rubber gloves, remove all the "white stuff" from the >groves on the knobs, dispose of the gloves, brushes, water and white stuff in the "proper manner", recheck the >handles and re clean if necessary. Or throw them away ("in the proper manner") and buy the late model ones that >are free of radium.
[quote] ---
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