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Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

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jdmurr(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

First and foremost I love my Firestar.  

I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place.  Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.

OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?

John Murr





First and foremost I love my Firestar. 





I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place. Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.





OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?





John Murr

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

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biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

I don't see any other comments, and my own experience with these is very 

limited, but for what it's worth, I've flown in several Mk III's, had some 

stick time, and found them to be very stable and forgiving.  They go where 

you put them and stay there.  Just a little less than an hour in an S-12/912 

a few years ago, and it flew fine, but wandered constantly, and needed 

constant small corrections.  Seems like it was twitchy to rudder and 

elevator inputs, too.  For comparison, I have several hundred hours in 

various Cessnas, 12 hours in a Merlin, (which would now be considered a 

Light Sport Aircraft) 1 Mooney, 1 Piper, 1 Piper Cub, 1 Aeronca Champ, and 

several ultralights.                         Lar.                   Do not 

Archive.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

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_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

I ask the same question to someone that has flown both. I only have 

experience with the Mark III and loved it. He said that the s-12 had larger 

gas tanks so more range, that there was much more room to store things since 

the tanks are in the wings, and the alerions were much lighter than the Mark 

III's.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "jdmurr(at)juno.com" <jdmurr(at)juno.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:57:02 GMT




First and foremost I love my Firestar.

I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place.  Is there anyone who 

has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? 

Let's say they both have 582's in them.

OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in 

them?

John Murr





First and foremost I love my Firestar.





I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place. Is there anyone who 

has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? 

Let's say they both have 582's in them.





OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in 

them?





John Murr

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

I flew an S-12XL for about 2 years, and now have a MkIIIc, but with

only about 5 hours time with her.  There are definitely pros and cons

on each side.  The following are MY opinions and impressions... I have

no doubt whatsoever that not everyone will agree with me but, then,

that's just the way it is.



The S12XL was much heavier and never got a very good climb rate; the

Kolb is much lighter and climbs like an elevator.



The S12XL was a VERY stable, predictable flyer, and very well designed

and built, and a real joy to fly; the Kolb is, well, I'm still

learning it, but it feels a little bit less stable (but not enough to

sway me either way) and isn't as polished as the RANS kit.  Generally,

though, it's a wash.  Once I get some elevator trim and/or the wing

washout fixed, that may make them equals in my mind.   I think the

Kolb cage is a bit more protective than the RANS cage.



The Kolb definitely flies faster than the S12XL... it seems to be a

bit more slippery in the air.



The S12XL seems to be, overall, a bit more sturdy than the Kolb,

especially the gear legs, but again not a major difference.  The flaps

in the S12XL were much easier to actuate.



The S12XL has a LOT more useable space and can carry a lot more gas...

I really miss these two things... but it's what I had to give up in

order to get foldable wings.



The view is terrific on both.  My S12XL had half-doors so picture

taking was excellent... I may have to either put a sliding window in

my Kolb door, or change them to half-doors because this is a

"must-have" for me.



Conclusion:  if you must have folding wings, no choice: the Kolb.  If

that's not an issue at all, the choice is harder.  I like the fact

that the Kolb is more slippery, which translate to a faster aircraft

with better gas mileage.  The RANS was a lot roomier, with more space

for gas and sundries.  They both seem to be very tough aircraft, with

the Kolb gearlegs being just slightly less robust than the RANS.



Probably the "final word" is:  I now own a Kolb.  <g>



  -- Robert



P.S.  Go with the 912 or 912S... the 582 is a lot more expensive over

the long run and much less reliable.



On 1/25/06, jdmurr(at)juno.com <jdmurr(at)juno.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 First and foremost I love my Firestar.

 I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place.  Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.

 OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?

 John Murr





 First and foremost I love my Firestar.





 I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place. Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.





 OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?





 John Murr

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jdmurr(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

Great! Thanks!

Wasn't the S12-S designed to be "more slippery"  At least that's what their ads claim.

 

-- Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com> wrote:




I flew an S-12XL for about 2 years, and now have a MkIIIc, but with

only about 5 hours time with her.  There are definitely pros and cons

on each side.  The following are MY opinions and impressions... I have

no doubt whatsoever that not everyone will agree with me but, then,

that's just the way it is.



The S12XL was much heavier and never got a very good climb rate; the

Kolb is much lighter and climbs like an elevator.



The S12XL was a VERY stable, predictable flyer, and very well designed

and built, and a real joy to fly; the Kolb is, well, I'm still

learning it, but it feels a little bit less stable (but not enough to

sway me either way) and isn't as polished as the RANS kit.  Generally,

though, it's a wash.  Once I get some elevator trim and/or the wing

washout fixed, that may make them equals in my mind.   I think the

Kolb cage is a bit more protective than the RANS cage.



The Kolb definitely flies faster than the S12XL... it seems to be a

bit more slippery in the air.



The S12XL seems to be, overall, a bit more sturdy than the Kolb,

especially the gear legs, but again not a major difference.  The flaps

in the S12XL were much easier to actuate.



The S12XL has a LOT more useable space and can carry a lot more gas...

I really miss these two things... but it's what I had to give up in

order to get foldable wings.



The view is terrific on both.  My S12XL had half-doors so picture

taking was excellent... I may have to either put a sliding window in

my Kolb door, or change them to half-doors because this is a

"must-have" for me.



Conclusion:  if you must have folding wings, no choice: the Kolb.  If

that's not an issue at all, the choice is harder.  I like the fact

that the Kolb is more slippery, which translate to a faster aircraft

with better gas mileage.  The RANS was a lot roomier, with more space

for gas and sundries.  They both seem to be very tough aircraft, with

the Kolb gearlegs being just slightly less robust than the RANS.



Probably the "final word" is:  I now own a Kolb.  <g>



  -- Robert



P.S.  Go with the 912 or 912S... the 582 is a lot more expensive over

the long run and much less reliable.



On 1/25/06, jdmurr(at)juno.com <jdmurr(at)juno.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 First and foremost I love my Firestar.

 I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place.  Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.

 OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?

 John Murr





 First and foremost I love my Firestar.





 I recently got my ticket and I'm thinking two place. Is there anyone who has experience with both these planes that could compare and contrast them? Let's say they both have 582's in them.





 OK, now what about the Mark III compared to the S-12S both with a 912S in them?





 John Murr


	


 

 

 



Great! Thanks!





Wasn't the S12-S designed to be "more slippery" At least that's what their ads claim.



--RobertLairdrlaird(at)cavediver.comwrote:

--Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:RobertLairdrlaird(at)cavediver.com



IflewanS-12XLforabout2years,andnowhaveaMkIIIc,butwith

onlyabout5hourstimewithher.Therearedefinitelyprosandcons

oneachside.ThefollowingareMYopinionsandimpressions...Ihave

nodoubtwhatsoeverthatnoteveryonewillagreewithmebut,then,

that'sjustthewayitis.



TheS12XLwasmuchheavierandnevergotaverygoodclimbrate;the

Kolbismuchlighterandclimbslikeanelevator.



TheS12XLwasaVERYstable,predictableflyer,andverywelldesigned

andbuilt,andarealjoytofly;theKolbis,well,I'mstill

learningit,butitfeelsalittlebitlessstable(butnotenoughto

swaymeeitherway)andisn'taspolishedastheRANSkit.Generally,

though,it'sawash.OnceIgetsomeelevatortrimand/orthewing

washoutfixed,thatmaymakethemequalsinmymind.Ithinkthe

KolbcageisabitmoreprotectivethantheRANScage.



TheKolbdefinitelyfliesfasterthantheS12XL...itseemstobea

bitmoreslipperyintheair.



TheS12XLseemstobe,overall,abitmoresturdythantheKolb,

especiallythegearlegs,butagainnotamajordifference.Theflaps

intheS12XLweremucheasiertoactuate.



TheS12XLhasaLOTmoreuseablespaceandcancarryalotmoregas...

Ireallymissthesetwothings...butit'swhatIhadtogiveupin

ordertogetfoldablewings.



Theviewisterrificonboth.MyS12XLhadhalf-doorssopicture

takingwasexcellent...Imayhavetoeitherputaslidingwindowin

myKolbdoor,orchangethemtohalf-doorsbecausethisisa

"must-have"forme.



Conclusion:ifyoumusthavefoldingwings,nochoice:theKolb.If

that'snotanissueatall,thechoiceisharder.Ilikethefact

thattheKolbismoreslippery,whichtranslatetoafasteraircraft

withbettergasmileage.TheRANSwasalotroomier,withmorespace

forgasandsundries.Theybothseemtobeverytoughaircraft,with

theKolbgearlegsbeingjustslightlylessrobustthantheRANS.



Probablythe"finalword"is:InowownaKolb.g



--Robert



P.S.Gowiththe912or912S...the582isalotmoreexpensiveover

thelongrunandmuchlessreliable.



On1/25/06,jdmurr(at)juno.comjdmurr(at)juno.comwrote:

--Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:"jdmurr(at)juno.com"jdmurr(at)juno.com

FirstandforemostIlovemyFirestar.

IrecentlygotmyticketandI'mthinkingtwoplace.Isthereanyonewhohasexperiencewithboththeseplanesthatcouldcompareandcontrastthem?Let'ssaytheybothhave582'sinthem.

OK,nowwhatabouttheMarkIIIcomparedtotheS-12Sbothwitha912Sinthem?

JohnMurr





FirstandforemostIlovemyFirestar.





IrecentlygotmyticketandI'mthinkingtwoplace.Isthereanyonewhohasexperiencewithboththeseplanesthatcouldcompareandcontrastthem?Let'ssaytheybothhave582'sinthem.





OK,nowwhatabouttheMarkIIIcomparedtotheS-12Sbothwitha912Sinthem?





JohnMurr

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rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: Mark III vs. Airaile S-12

On 1/26/06, jdmurr(at)juno.com <jdmurr(at)juno.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Great! Thanks!

 Wasn't the S12-S designed to be "more slippery"  At least that's what their ads claim.


	


Yes, the finish on the S12-S does make it more slippery than the

Dacron sails...  In theory, you'd get another 5-10mph.  And that would

put it more along the lines of what the Kolb can do in terms of speed,

but it will never outclimb a MkIII... it's just too heavy and/or the

wing cross-section isn't suited for it.



  -- Robert

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

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